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Mazz posted:My only argument in this is that I don’t feel we know enough to jump to conclusions. There very well could be a whole bunch of slave freeing stuff in this one if you are playing regular starts. Should you hold your breath over that? Definitely no, as you said, and the slavemaster start is in poor taste, no doubt. But until we have more than a few blog posts and the writings of a guy that is possibly not even involved with the game anymore I just can’t agree with the “boycott the DLC” mentality that pops up in this thread at times. I mean when much of the writing of the game and the Warriors of the North DLC could be broadly described as sneering in tone, I don't blame people for having low expectations.
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Jun 15, 2020 15:31
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That a game with historical pretenses incorporates slavery isn't offensive in and of itself. Most games are already murder simulators where the player can delight in butchering the weak. What's offensive and harmful is the myth of the "Muslim slave trade" somehow being on par with the European slave trade. This myth provided a neat excuse for Leopold II to subjugate large parts of what is now Congo in the 19th century and it persists today. "Muslim" slavery wasn't a uniform thing (ie. slavery in the Ottoman balkans was not the same as slavery in Zanzibar). Except for very clearly delineated and not very long-lasting historical instances slaves in the Muslim world weren't really used for agriculture. In the Ottoman empire slavery wasn't based on skin colour, you could be a slave or a former slave and climb up to the highest rungs of society, being freed was common, et cetera. You certainly didn't want to be a slave sent to the mines. but dangerous and often forced labour in mines was a worldwide phenomenon across all cultures, whether it involved "slaves" or not. In reality, the 'slave warriors' portrayed in the game as the lowest form of cannon fodder, to be thrown away for nothing, would be a highly valued and elite force of truly professional non-aristocratic soldiers, considerably better trained with a lot more prestige and higher life standards than the oppressed peasants opposing them. Their portrayal is the exact opposite of reality and is based on racist stereotypes. Handwringing about the moral implications of playing a game that contains slavery, whilst reproducing the exact same racist stereotypes but from the other side, won't solve anything. You should absolutely contact the developers and voice your displeasure about their stereotypical treatment of slavery in the Middle East. That said, consider that this is a game developed by a tiny German indie studio with a mistaken and racist, yet utterly unremarkable view of history that's still widely taught. Meanwhile big AAA title Call of Duty Black Ops literally had you shoot Fidel Castro while he's holding a woman as a human shield, nobody ever apologised for that.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:06
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the most recent COD has the loving Iraqi death highway perpetrated by Russians and not by the U.S. which is some insane rewrite of history.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:15
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I stopped playing COD when I was asked to slaughter an airport.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:19
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the phrase "sneering" is an apt way to describe that sort of writing style, and yeah im not terribly surprised to learn what kind of dude wrote this game. you see those types crop up a lot in traditional game forums; they got an often very inaccurate view of the medieval ages being nothing but cynical violence and death. itd be cynical... save for the softspot being directed towards the soldier and the Great Man protecting some vaulted good, be it Order, Civilization, a particular creed, survival of one peoples/race/species, or just the act of violence itself. and there is a lot of anger and viciousness about it that they just revel in, because to them, this isn't really a historical fantasy, its how the real world works. and there's always a that sneering quality to it, that either you embrace it like they do, or you're some sentimental civilian or outright degenerate. so yeah. unfortunate but not that surprising. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jun 15, 2020 |
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Jun 15, 2020 17:21
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Sneering is the internet fash default setting.tentacles posted:ITT loudmouth virtue signalers trying to convince themselves they're moral paragons miss the fact that the thing they've been protesting has been ingame all this while due to their limited vocabulary Dude could you tone it down just a teensy skooch
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Jun 15, 2020 18:34
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Tiler Kiwi posted:the phrase "sneering" is an apt way to describe that sort of writing style, and yeah im not terribly surprised to learn what kind of dude wrote this game. The 'welcome to the real world MAAAAAN' style. It is a shame because the actual underlying game is really well designed and fun to play, but yeah. I'm not in on this expansion.
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Jun 15, 2020 18:37
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aphid_licker posted:Dude could you tone it down just a teensy skooch The dial's in the negatives, what do you want from me, a bake-off?!
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Jun 15, 2020 18:49
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tentacles posted:The dial's in the negatives, what do you want from me, a bake-off?! You literally have a probation on your rap sheet from this exact thread with the given reason "please do not post like this"
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Jun 15, 2020 18:52
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aphid_licker posted:You literally have a probation on your rap sheet from this exact thread with the given reason "please do not post like this" Oh God you're right. I have become that I most despise... an internet flamer! Time to take a chill pill
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Jun 15, 2020 19:07
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tentacles posted:Time to take a chill pill If you would, please.
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Jun 15, 2020 19:53
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It wouldn't fix it but making the slavers a separate faction that you can kill as part of an end game campaign might make it more palatable. Like the undead, just unambiguously bad guys. Ahistoric sure but beef that up with some slave freeing mechanism (e.g. emancipated towns have better recruits/markets than slave towns) and it might work.
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Jun 15, 2020 21:32
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vyelkin posted:Oh yeah also I forgot the obvious comparison that the "northern raiders" barbarian company start doesn't give you a new mechanic specifically for whipping your thralls into battle to go die for you Mazz posted:You guys know that a thrall is literally a slave too right? You don't have thralls at all as a Northern Barbarian company, nor were actual thralls slaves. Understanding the old Germanic concept of Thralldom is more than an essay, but Thralls had rights and responsibilities and the person who took them in had rights and responsibilities towards them, one of which was freedom when conditions were met. ' I understand that this game models itself on ahistoric racist nonsense. There version of Thralls, though, include everyone in the tribe and anyone who joined it. It's a period of "prove your worth". It's significantly different from Chattel Slavery. Most importantly, I don't have to deal with it. Thralls were just another enemy, the low tier "barbarian." I was never asked to take thralls, the barbarian start doesn't give me any thralls, I don't have to interact with them outside of fighting them. this is different in The "southern" version because it isn't just ahistoric, it perpetuates very specific stereotypes used to denigrate the Middle East and Africa, was used to justify Western Chattel Slavery, and is being done while intentionally ignoring the use of chattel slavery in Europe at the time. It's a particularly complicated topic they're stepping into, and their answer to dealing with the complicated topic is "gently caress it, we'll just be racist."
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Jun 15, 2020 22:10
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TheAnomaly posted:Most importantly, I don't have to deal with it. Thralls were just another enemy, the low tier "barbarian." I was never asked to take thralls, the barbarian start doesn't give me any thralls, I don't have to interact with them outside of fighting them. Can't you just... not interact with the slaver factions outside of warring against them if you so choose?
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Jun 15, 2020 23:15
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dogstile posted:Can't you just... not interact with the slaver factions outside of warring against them if you so choose? No, slaves are a prevalent part of the southern area, recruits will be slaves, the armies of the south are going to be made of slaves, there will be people whipping slaves in combat whether I'm doing it or not. You're also intentionally ignoring the important part of my post, that the style of slavery presented in the next expansion plays on stereotypes designed to denigrate the Middle East and North Africa. EDIT: And from the way they talk about slave taking in the slavers preview, it's likely there will be missions to take slaves as well.
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Jun 16, 2020 00:22
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I feel like this whole controversy could be avoided by losing the game's anthropocentrism and making the slavers rat people or elves
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Jun 16, 2020 00:34
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I'm not going to get into an argument with racist trolls. But I have to say I didn't expect the Thrall whataboutism; that was cute.dogstile posted:Can't you just... not interact with the slaver factions outside of warring against them if you so choose?
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Jun 16, 2020 01:49
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And now for a completely different  dev blog topic: Religion!New Crisis: Holy War
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Jun 20, 2020 05:18
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Lmao the first response is straight chud poo poo: "Deus Vult, Viziers will be eviscerated for the glory of the OLD GODS !!! Please make crusader background available to hire in castles during the crisis"
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Jun 20, 2020 05:30
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did they say if Southern players would be able to get their hands on mortars? If so, whitey can can have all the crusaders they want, more nerds to explode from the other side of map.
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Jun 20, 2020 06:12
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Oh hmm. Interesting implications for the crisis if AI can bring mortars to the holy sites if you're holding them. Fluid defense in favour of static holding positions? Sounds messy Edit: Can't remember if battle map terrain changes are going through in the same DLC/patch but if so encounter flow will change quite a bit tentacles fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 06:27
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Babe Magnet posted:did they say if Southern players would be able to get their hands on mortars? If so, whitey can can have all the crusaders they want, more nerds to explode from the other side of map. Think they said it won’t be in the blog they were first shown
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Jun 20, 2020 09:19
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Glenn Quebec posted:Please make crusader background available to hire in castles during the crisis" Honestly, i will be very surprised if they don't have "holy warrior" as a background at all. Seems fitting and you can make that generic enough that they'll fight for whatever side you choose to join.
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Jun 20, 2020 09:45
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Mazz posted:Think they said it won’t be in the blog they were first shown that's disappointing. Maybe they'll change their mind and you could get one from a rare engineer retainer event or something lol. Ah well, may have to just join holy war battles to have them on my side then. dogstile posted:Honestly, i will be very surprised if they don't have "holy warrior" as a background at all. Seems fitting and you can make that generic enough that they'll fight for whatever side you choose to join. this is how I'm assuming it'll work, you can get a beefed up knight or mamluk with super high morale and resolve, but they only start showing up during the holy wars.
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Jun 20, 2020 12:23
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tentacles posted:I'm afraid to Google chud iirc it stands for cannibalistic humanoid underground dweller, basically it means racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic etc MAGA types
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Jun 20, 2020 13:02
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C.H.U.Ds are not to be confused with Chuds/Chudes, who are a sort of finn and also elves.
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Jun 20, 2020 13:09
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Is there a name for this style of game? The mount and blade / starsector / battle brothers / etc? type game. You know, you have a mercenary band, travel through an over world and get into fights? If not, would Mercband games work? I like this type of gameplay loop and would like to find more games like it.
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Jun 20, 2020 13:31
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BoneMonkey posted:Is there a name for this style of game? The mount and blade / starsector / battle brothers / etc? type game. Battletech is extremely like that and I have been loving it ever since it went on Steam sale like a month ago.
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Jun 20, 2020 17:22
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The Iron Oath seems like it's trying to be a high fantasy Battle Brothers. There's a demo on Steam, although it doesn't really cover any of the mercenary company management or political system that are supposed to be part of the final game.
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Jun 20, 2020 17:41
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Dreylad posted:The Iron Oath seems like it's trying to be a high fantasy Battle Brothers. There's a demo on Steam, although it doesn't really cover any of the mercenary company management or political system that are supposed to be part of the final game. Should've gone with Iron Oafs
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Jun 20, 2020 18:12
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BoneMonkey posted:Is there a name for this style of game? The mount and blade / starsector / battle brothers / etc? type game. battle for wesnoth clones
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Jun 20, 2020 20:07
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I want a mercenary company tycoon game
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Jun 20, 2020 20:11
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The southern god is the sun, which is the same colour and shape as a coin. They worship The Almighty
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Jun 20, 2020 22:08
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Flavahbeast posted:I feel like this whole controversy could be avoided by losing the game's anthropocentrism and making the slavers rat people or elves That's every fantasy game. Not that BB's Dark Age Germania is particularly unique, but in some ways making the non-Germanic other into an inhuman species is even more racist.
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Jun 20, 2020 22:38
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The Fool posted:I want a mercenary company tycoon game Yes please.
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Jun 20, 2020 23:16
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BoneMonkey posted:Is there a name for this style of game? The mount and blade / starsector / battle brothers / etc? type game. I should apparently check out some of those titles. I just consider Battle Brothers/Battletech to be "Merc Games" whenever I discuss them.
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Jun 20, 2020 23:25
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Wafflecopper posted:iirc it stands for cannibalistic humanoid underground dweller, basically it means racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic etc MAGA types Thanks! I guess I'm thankful I haven't had the term come up often in my day-to-day BoneMonkey posted:Is there a name for this style of game? The mount and blade / starsector / battle brothers / etc? type game. I proposed it as a roguelike in the relevant thread and was very roundly told it wasn't one! But in my heart it's still got roguelike DNA
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Jun 21, 2020 04:57
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dogstile posted:Honestly, i will be very surprised if they don't have "holy warrior" as a background at all. Seems fitting and you can make that generic enough that they'll fight for whatever side you choose to join. Maybe it's an event similar to the orc slayer or paladin events for the Orc/Undead Crisis.
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Jun 21, 2020 19:28
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I would like to see Davkul cultists play a role in the holy war.
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Jun 22, 2020 03:39
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Thanks, now I have this firmly stuck in my head! Perfect for a Monday morning at work, I suppose 
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Jun 22, 2020 04:03
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