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Stux posted:nope in the first game joel is unambiguously the bad guy unless you specifically have a need to have the guy you played as be the good guy That's what the game tried really hard to do, but it hosed up in such a way that it redeemed Joel entirely with each and every firefly it made him kill. Because it's written in such a way as to defeat itself in a way visible to someone who was playing the game with a kitchen timer running to go pick up their laundry in the machine immediately afterward. I 100% get that that is what the game tried to say, that's why it's so loving funny. Because it was all serious and stuff and fell on its face.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:08
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lurker2006 posted:It's funny to me that after all this time, and in their studio's magnum opus they still can't avoid this cliche, it's the same thing as in uncharted 3 when Drake inexplicably goes out of his way to save the main villain after just murdering hundreds of her goons, at least in that one she still died. SIGSEGV posted:That's what the game tried really hard to do, but it hosed up in such a way that it redeemed Joel entirely with each and every firefly it made him kill. Because it's written in such a way as to defeat itself in a way visible to someone who was playing the game with a kitchen timer running to go pick up their laundry in the machine immediately afterward. Totally correct views. The story is literally incompatible with the storytelling. Druckmann was so desperate to make his "ha ha the guy you played as last game is the real bad guy" work that more people empathize rightfully with his "bad guy". And you get people literally melting down going "JOELS THE BAD GUY, THE UNNAMED NPCS THAT WOULD KILL HIM UNPROMPTED AND THE STORY VILLAINS WITH MOTIVATIONS THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO REALIZE ARE IN THE RIGHT, VIDEO GAMES ARE ART, JOEL IS BAD JOEL IS BAD!" make themselves look like clowns every time they defend it seemingly out of self delusion and spite.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:11
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Yeah they touch on Joel's lovely past with Ellie and also his brother at the dam who says he still has nightmares about what they did, but the game also pushes a narrative that Joel is changing/growing as a person. That's why he changes his mind about ditching Ellie and wants to take care of her and does all that he does. He still has the nasty side (torturing those guys in Winter to find where Ellie is) but then shortly after is stopping Ellie from doing an equally horrific act. They show that slowly, he's coming back around because of Ellie.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:12
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last time you did this argument you got multiple things directly wrong about what happened in the game so maybe u shouldve spent less time on the laundry
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Jun 20, 2020 21:12
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Stux posted:nope in the first game joel is unambiguously the bad guy unless you specifically have a need to have the guy you played as be the good guy lurker2006 fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jun 20, 2020 |
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Jun 20, 2020 21:12
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Stux posted:last time you did this argument you got multiple things directly wrong about what happened in the game so maybe u shouldve spent less time on the laundry Link me to the last time we had this argument because I have no idea who you are and if I've ever communicated with you before today.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:14
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lurker2006 posted:I don't necessarily disagree, I find the way it's framed is kind of weird. or at least the way some people react to it. If people were lamenting that Joel can't take the blinders of traditional morality off I'd understand, but they're acting like a guy deciding that he's not going to let his daughter get sacrificed without even a say is some sort maladapted sociopath in that instance. he not only does it believing himself that they will find a cure he does it without giving ellie any say, and in such a final way she never can. thats why in 1 he is the bad guy. none of this is complicated, the game is very simple.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:15
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lovely Wizard posted:Link me to the last time we had this argument because I have no idea who you are and if I've ever communicated with you before today. read what i said its clearly not at u no one should be surprised the trump guy feels the violent dude was vindicated
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Jun 20, 2020 21:16
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Stux posted:read what i said its clearly not at u no one should be surprised the trump guy feels the violent dude was vindicated "last time you did this argument you got multiple things directly wrong about what happened in the game so maybe u shouldve spent less time on the laundry" This sounds like you're referencing specific events. Maybe in your head you've created a scenario where I lost an argument with you and I bailed by saying I had to do laundry, so if you want to keep saying dumb poo poo ill keep asking for a followup or elaboration on your dumb poo poo.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:18
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the guy who posted before you was talking about doing laundry im clearly replying to him
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Jun 20, 2020 21:18
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No, he's talking about me, he still thinks the text of the game supports Joel being wrong, which is made funnier by the text of the new game supporting even further than the previous one that Joel was right, by showing the the firefly surgeon was even more of a witless idiot.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:19
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lovely Wizard posted:blah blah blah I'm a Nazi Go away, Nazi
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Jun 20, 2020 21:19
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He's totally the bad guy, but also I don't care about any of these people and actively cheer their deaths, so maybe he's the good guy?
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Jun 20, 2020 21:20
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Joel walking away from Ellie because she's not his problem is what the Joel at the start of the game would've done. Joel caring enough about Ellie to do what he does at the end is growth for him.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:20
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Stux posted:the guy who posted before you was talking about doing laundry im clearly replying to him Use quotes next time, I apologize in this specific instance though.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:22
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Zeta Acosta posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCwNPYIQym0 the_henchman's_wife.mp4
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Jun 20, 2020 21:23
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SIGSEGV posted:No, he's talking about me, he still thinks the text of the game supports Joel being wrong, which is made funnier by the text of the new game supporting even further than the previous one that Joel was right, by showing the the firefly surgeon was even more of a witless idiot. the text of the first game does support that i have no idea what the second one says and its not relevant
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Jun 20, 2020 21:23
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Eimi posted:Joel walking away from Ellie because she's not his problem is what the Joel at the start of the game would've done. Joel caring enough about Ellie to do what he does at the end is growth for him. u missed the final step on that growth which is beyond caring and into full control mode lovely Wizard posted:Use quotes next time, I apologize in this specific instance though. no, stop posting nazi
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Jun 20, 2020 21:24
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Stux posted:no, stop posting nazi I'm not posting any Nazis though, and I'm not a Nazi incase you meant "No. Stop posting, Nazi." This is going to be my only post on the subject because I don't want to derail the thread more than you have.  Flesnolk posted:Go away, Nazi Refer to above text.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:28
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you are a nazi
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Jun 20, 2020 21:30
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Stux posted:hm spec ops owns though op and so does death stranding, sounds likea case of mad cos bad if i had to guess I thought you haven't played death stranding yet so how can you possibly comment on it???????
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Jun 20, 2020 21:32
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Eimi posted:Joel walking away from Ellie because she's not his problem is what the Joel at the start of the game would've done. Joel caring enough about Ellie to do what he does at the end is growth for him.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:34
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fridge corn posted:I thought you haven't played death stranding yet so how can you possibly comment on it??????? its goty op
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Jun 20, 2020 21:34
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Eimi posted:Joel walking away from Ellie because she's not his problem is what the Joel at the start of the game would've done. Joel caring enough about Ellie to do what he does at the end is growth for him. Yeah, he has a whole character development arc. The whole point of him lying at the end of the game is because he's grown as a person and would rather risk her hating him than her losing her life pointlessly. He's putting her before himself.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:34
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Dapper_Swindler posted:this game's ending falls flat on its face gta iv feels like a way better execution of this idea if you end up killing darko. Regardless of how you dealt with Darko, going for revenge at this point doesn't seem to make much sense at this point. If you killed Darko, Niko knows revenge isn't going to make him feel any better, and if you spared Darko... well, if you spared the traitor you've been hunting for a decade, why would you bother killing this other dude for betraying you? Of course, the deal is a trap, Dimitri ends up betraying Niko again and Roman ends up dead, so you end up taking revenge on him anyway. I feel that works better and makes for a more dramatic climax than just going for revenge in the first place.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:34
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This guy everyone is calling a Nazi doesn’t seem to be talking politics ITT; seems unfair to shout him down over fairly reasonable posts (at least by the standards of this thread).
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Jun 20, 2020 21:36
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General Dog posted:This guy everyone is calling a Nazi doesn’t seem to be talking politics ITT; seems unfair to shout him down over fairly reasonable posts (at least by the standards of this thread). it isnt
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Jun 20, 2020 21:39
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Doc M posted:Niko doesn't really betray anyone for money if you choose the deal option at the end (which is a separate choice from the Darko thing). The deal is supposed to be this one last thing he does before going straight, and while I don't remember off the top of my head if he explicitly says he's doing it to help out Roman (who is about to get married and has a kid on the way), that definitely was a factor in my choice and gives him a solid reason to choose the deal instead of chasing after pointless revenge yet again. The only one who complains is Kate, who thinks Niko is abandoning his principles by choosing to work with Dimitri instead of killing him. Isn't Darko also a drug addict who's suffering from heroine addiction and PTSD over betraying his whole squad? I even looked it up on youtube, and he thanks you if you kill him, so letting him live isn't necessarily a revenge thing, it might just be that death would be a mercy thing and to let him just linger in suffering till he finally kills himself.
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Jun 20, 2020 21:39
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lovely Wizard posted:Isn't Darko also a drug addict who's suffering from heroine addiction and PTSD over betraying his whole squad? I even looked it up on youtube, and he thanks you if you kill him, so letting him live isn't necessarily a revenge thing, it might just be that death would be a mercy thing and to let him just linger in suffering till he finally kills himself. I suppose Niko could also consider killing Dimitri to make sure he and Roman are left alone because Dimitri is a dick who might decide to screw with them one day, but Niko would also know that the mafia boss who hires him to do the deal would be less than pleased if Niko hosed things up (which is what happens in the other ending route, as Kate gets killed instead of Roman).
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Jun 20, 2020 21:46
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Stux posted:its goty op Just because something is popular its automatically good?
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Jun 20, 2020 21:51
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its a masterpiece
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Jun 20, 2020 21:52
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Stux posted:its a masterpiece How do you know, you haven't even played it
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Jun 20, 2020 22:08
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qed
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Jun 20, 2020 22:08
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I'm not so sure. I think it's probably a bit poo poo tbh
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Jun 20, 2020 22:16
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Stux posted:qed You know Latin, we get it Neil.
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Jun 20, 2020 22:16
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SwoleNerd posted:I don’t really think the issue is the story beats themselves more how they’re told. The game starts out both too slow and too fast at the same time. It races towards Joel’s death but does nothing to really establish why we should care. It assumes that everyone playing the game has spent the entirety of the PS4’s life cycle thinking about the events of the first game. It’s desperate to get to this moment but does nothing to adequately build up to it and undercuts it massively because of this. I can see why they did it this way. I think it’s obvious what they were going for in terms of how it’s executed but it absolutely doesn’t work. I'm also six hours in, and because of reasons, watched the rest of the cut scenes on YouTube. I will play the whole game through when I have time this fall (work called me away from my home starting July 1st and I have deadlines and blah blah blah), but I want to know what happens without being spoiled. First, the gameplay is A+. The first six hours feel and play fantastic. It's not bad storytelling. A lot of people on twitter and this thread act like they're the authority on what good storytelling is, when this clearly is a runaway success with what storytelling, at it's core is supposed to do. It's supposed to make you feel something. This game does. Angry is there for a lot of people, but the ones who have finished it and have the maturity above a fifteen year old boy with daddy issues (a poo poo ton of the reddit and twitter folks, as well as people in this thread) is sorrow, appreciation, and wonderment at a masterpiece. Because that is what this is. An utter masterpiece. Much like BOTW, this game will be a huge influence on games and game conversations in ten years. In short, if you don't like the game because you don't like grime, that's fine. But this is a game about the nature of violence, the pointlessness of it all, and if your reaction is that it's bad storytelling or it's dumb, I suspect you're just not willing to look in the mirror and look at your own faults and try to grow, or see that no one sees themselves as the villain. the real world is messy, and this game does a fantastic job of showing the nature of that, to the point of making you the player uncomfortable. it's about teaching empathy, something that people who are online a lot usually sorely lack. An easy 10/10, and I suspect it will win game of the year driving people incapable of looking at their poo poo to be that much more angry.
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Jun 20, 2020 22:29
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LionArcher posted:I'm also six hours in, and because of reasons, watched the rest of the cut scenes on YouTube. This is an elaborate troll, right?
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Jun 20, 2020 22:34
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LionArcher posted:I'm also six hours in, and because of reasons, watched the rest of the cut scenes on YouTube. Source?
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Jun 20, 2020 22:34
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The Last of Us 2 might very well be the The Last of Us of art.
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Jun 20, 2020 22:35
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This seems to be a game that inspires its greatest champions and detractors to write like absolute lunatics.
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Jun 20, 2020 22:35
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