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fart simpson)
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comedyblissoption posted:or they could be just prefyad Hi, I'm permabanned poster landlordstomper58. I first started reading Mao when i was about 12. by 14 i got really obsessed with the concept of “people's war” and tried to channel it constantly,
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Jun 20, 2020 23:19
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Ardennes posted:The dominance of the US is also a geographic and historical accident more than anything else. Almost all of our history, we never really fought a fair fight and we more or less just filled in a power vacuum at the end of the Second World War. Good riddance America
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Jun 21, 2020 01:21
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one of the weirder parts of ughyer chat is that while everyone knows china is destroying traditional ughyer culture no one actually knows what traditional ughyer culture is and whenever they try to explain they make racist assumptions premised on the idea that theyre basically just stereotypical middle east muslims
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Jun 21, 2020 06:08
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Some Guy TT posted:one of the weirder parts of ughyer chat is that while everyone knows china is destroying traditional ughyer culture no one actually knows what traditional ughyer culture is and whenever they try to explain they make racist assumptions premised on the idea that theyre basically just stereotypical middle east muslims to be fair the justification China uses to stomp out a lot of it is that traditional Uighur culture is being destroyed by arab culture imported via islam and the internet like growing beards and being named mohammed weren't common before 1990s or something I guess (I really have no idea) it's also an insanely lovely justification
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Jun 21, 2020 06:49
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christ what is it with this thread and needing to defend internment camps
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Jun 21, 2020 07:15
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The US used the national question to tear the USSR apart so it's understandable that the PRC would take away a particular lesson from that
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Jun 21, 2020 07:17
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The other side of that is that Russia laid the ground for the USSR to be able to be torn apart by taking a very dominant position within the Union: CPSU nominations filled governments around the Union with Russians and made it easy for people to start seeing their governments as rule by outsiders. And all that once they first built up infrastructure for national minorities to act as nations (taught all of them to read and write in their own languages and so on). And they didn't do it because they were either naive or ideological russifiers, there are just so many party members and so few prize positions to give out to them, so best develop an ideology analogous to liberal "colorblindness" that lets the privileged not worry about ethnic tensions. There are many lessons to be taken from that depending on the aims of the people looking. I think at this point the most charitable reading would be that CPC's using aggressive policing as a temporary measure while doing early Soviet style minority nation-building through various development projects and genuinely rectifying the CPC's style of work internally. It doesn't seem that many actually believe that's the case though, and the CPC would basically have to be saints compared to other countries' ruling parties for there to even be a chance. China mostly gets defended the same way as something like Nasser's pan-Arab project: sure it's a bourgeois nationalist project aimed at liquidating national minorities into a unitary secular nation and isn't exactly above genocidal measures to achieve that, but boy, imagine what kind of counterweight to western imperialisms it would have produced, had it succeeded! Bourgeois nationalism that designates a correct national character that people *should* have and just ruthlessly pushes everyone that way is horrifying no matter when and where it has been done. But it's also historically standard stuff seen too many times to count, there's nothing *uniquely* horrifying about it. My takes have definitely zig-zagged in a silly way in this thread depending on whether I've been feeling empathetic about the victims or like a detached geopolitics nerd, but it feels like neither side can be totally abandoned and that there's no middle ground to settle on either.
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Jun 21, 2020 11:04
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I think it's entirely easy to imagine a lesser policy that still protects people from terrorist attacks and respects China's national sovereignty. It's not like eastern China needs Xinjiang to fill posts, it's more of a double hit of modernization bringing a lot of cultural changes including new ideas and customs, and also new industry bringing a lot of people from other parts of the country looking for work. In any country that's going to coincide with social tension, but in the backdrop of China's less liberal social frame work you get insufficient outlet for the negative energies of all this change, and so terrorist attacks and so on. As an outsider it seems like Han-Chauvinism allows the police state here to go into overdrive when there are probably better ways to deal with tensions that would have been used if it was happening elsewhere in the country. It's easy in the US to point to our prison system as being pretty bad at stopping recidivism and deterring crime, likewise it seems like these policies and especially the internment camps are reactive and oppressive and not really solutions. Sadly if they are solutions it is absolutely a solution by cultural genocide, even if that culture is new and evolving rather than centuries ancient (which again I don't understand very well).
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Jun 21, 2020 12:11
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Antonymous posted:to be fair the justification China uses to stomp out a lot of it is that traditional Uighur culture is being destroyed by arab culture imported via islam and the internet then later soviet advisors defined the uighurs as a nationality after allying with a local han warlord named sheng shicai who ruled xinjiang in the 1930s and 1940s. the soviet version was also constructed as a hedge against pan-turkism. sheng then flipped to the KMT after the germans invaded the USSR (he also executed mao's brother, BTW). when the situation on the eastern front turned back around no one wanted to deal with him. and then to make the situation more complicated, the chinese communists initially adopted the soviet model, and then there was the sino-soviet split with the soviets backing their own separatist movement in the region. there is also the world uighur conference -- backed by the U.S., germany and turkey -- which is descended from the older pan-turkic movement. that group was founded by erkin alptekin, who got his start at RFE/RL -- the U.S. government/CIA overseas media outlet -- handling uighur affairs based in munich. his father was isa alptekin who was tied up in pan-turkic movements back in the 1930s and 1940s, aligned with the U.S.-backed KMT before going into exile in turkey: quote:While appealing for Washington’s support, Alptekin developed strong ties with the Turkish far-right. Their bonds rested on a solid foundation of anti-communist zeal and pan-Turkic, neo-Ottomanist nationalism.  so back in xinjiang specifically, my impression is that the uighur identity is relatively fungible and there are various paths open to it. there is the pan-turkic path and there is the pan-islamist path. i think the pan-islamic path appeals to poorer people in xinjiang who feel marginalized, with the older pan-turkic stuff being more of an elite phenomenon (might be wrong). the pan-islamic radicalism is a minority within xinjiang, at the same time, which is kind of the story of the middle east and central asia, isn't it? moderate forces which comprise the majority of people are weak and are outflanked by more radical ideological players who receive money and weapons from other players to back it up. uncop posted:There are many lessons to be taken from that depending on the aims of the people looking. I think at this point the most charitable reading would be that CPC's using aggressive policing as a temporary measure while doing early Soviet style minority nation-building through various development projects and genuinely rectifying the CPC's style of work internally. It doesn't seem that many actually believe that's the case though, and the CPC would basically have to be saints compared to other countries' ruling parties for there to even be a chance. China mostly gets defended the same way as something like Nasser's pan-Arab project: sure it's a bourgeois nationalist project aimed at liquidating national minorities into a unitary secular nation and isn't exactly above genocidal measures to achieve that, but boy, imagine what kind of counterweight to western imperialisms it would have produced, had it succeeded! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH1eHZTO_Ek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoBhZVO67Sw Antonymous posted:As an outsider it seems like Han-Chauvinism allows the police state here to go into overdrive when there are probably better ways to deal with tensions that would have been used if it was happening elsewhere in the country. BrutalistMcDonalds has issued a correction as of 12:49 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 12:38
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Thanks for that post. Just to ad some thoughts, not really debating at all. Contemporary china loves traditional dress and dance, it's everywhere. Minority culture is essentialized as dress and dance. You can imagine white kids along side native ones in new mexico dressing up as hopi warriors and doing the snake dance, in the same way there's band recitals and school plays. I do think China has a good legacy of considering and protecting minority rights that guide policy now but the dress and dance thing always seems a little lacking. Interestingly as more rights are granted elsewhere there's some de-facto loss of affirmative action, like the withdrawal of the one child policy or the fact that if you want to go to a top school in Beijing the bonus gaokao points do not make up for the benefits of having beijing hukou for example. I'm not sure if the situation in xinjiang, which I've never seen in person, is a preview of what might be coming elsewhere or if it's only possible there because a minority group far away and out of sight lets it be possible, but it's clearly something that should be condemned and stopped. Chinese law does guarantee minorities be allowed to develop their religion, customs, etc and doubly so in their own autonomous land so although obviously the party supersedes anything I guess you have to wonder where such a lovely response to domestic terror threats is coming from.
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Jun 21, 2020 13:06
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Antonymous posted:I'm not sure if the situation in xinjiang, which I've never seen in person, is a preview of what might be coming elsewhere or if it's only possible there because a minority group far away and out of sight lets it be possible, but it's clearly something that should be condemned and stopped. Chinese law does guarantee minorities be allowed to develop their religion, customs, etc and doubly so in their own autonomous land so although obviously the party supersedes anything I guess you have to wonder where such a lovely response to domestic terror threats is coming from. what they will say to an american about this is (typo voice) "you have a terrorism problem too, and you reacted to that by launching a bunch of wars that are directly and indirectly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths and ruining multiple countries. and we're not destroying their traditional culture, we're reviving their traditional culture and breaking the chains of backwards religious ideas at the same time, freeing them from reactionary forces which seek to enslave the people of xinjiang and destroy china. we will do things our way. religion does not have a license to promote terrorism, fundamentalism or separatism. and we're putting a stop to that and also we're going to make everybody rich and xinjiang is going to be great again. the end."
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Jun 21, 2020 13:17
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CCP has long history of educational camp. A more famous ones being the the anti rightist camp. I don't count the pre-49 camps that actual got people killed because those were too Stanlinist.
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Jun 21, 2020 13:38
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The entire white framework of of multiculturalism is anchored on the concept of white supremacy, or the reaction against white supremacy. White supremacy is a concept that gained widespread popular support in the late 19th and early 20th century because it was widely believed at the time that the superiority of the "white" race was rooted in some kind of scientific basis. This is all been suppressed and censored in modern white education but you occasionally see glimpse of it in e.g. Tom Buchanan being an explicit scientific white supremacist in the Great Gatsby. White people today are incapable of conceptualizing cross cultural relations outside their own context which has been one of non stop genocide against either native Americans or enslaved Africans, explicitly and with supposedly scientific backing. This is a large part of why Chinese people find the white notion of political correctness incomprehensible - it only makes sense if you were already steeped in white supremacy as a default position. It's also why only white people can be "racist", because that whole concept is particular to the white anglo context. Calling a Serb "racist" against a Croat or a Han Chinese "racist" against non-Han Chinese doesn't mean anything, because there wasn't a centuries long multinational movement asserting the scientific superiority of Serbs over Croats. Americans in particular (maybe the British are a little less guilty given their history) are also entirely ignorant of the historical context of the central Asian "Great Game" and think places like Xinjiang are unimportant backwaters when it's the absolute central focus of relations between China, Russia, British India and their various successor states. If the Qing and the KMT had not asserted their military control over the Tarim basin then those places would have been Soviet republics just like Mongolia. Instead of understanding that countries like Mongolia or Khazakstan are entirely artificial constructs of Russian/Soviet foreign policy white anglos try to understand everything under the framework of their own race relations which are incomprehensible to the Chinese who for the most part can't even make a coherent counter-argument because the white suppression of the true extent of their genocide against native Americans and Africans has been so successful through white dominated popular media that the average Chinese who hasn't read A People's History of the United States are simply not aware of it. EDIT: Ahaha what the gently caress with the phone posting. Throatwarbler has issued a correction as of 14:03 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 13:49
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is there any particular reason that post contained a hyperlink to discounted armani suits
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Jun 21, 2020 13:57
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Some Guy TT posted:is there any particular reason that post contained a hyperlink to discounted armani suits 
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Jun 21, 2020 14:02
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Some Guy TT posted:is there any particular reason that post contained a hyperlink to discounted armani suits I'm obsessed with white people and cheap suits deal with it
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Jun 21, 2020 14:05
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https://twitter.com/robkhenderson/status/1274382145537146880
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Jun 21, 2020 14:07
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Throatwarbler posted:This is a large part of why Chinese people find the white notion of political correctness incomprehensible - it only makes sense if you were already steeped in white supremacy as a default position. It's also why only white people can be "racist", because that whole concept is particular to the white anglo context. Calling a Serb "racist" against a Croat or a Han Chinese "racist" against non-Han Chinese doesn't mean anything, because there wasn't a centuries long multinational movement asserting the scientific superiority of Serbs over Croats.
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Jun 21, 2020 14:11
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:yeah, the soviets. or in some ways what the chinese are trying to do kinda reminds me of nazarbayev in kazakhstan, maybe. religious politics are outlawed and salafist militant groups are cracked down on, while the state simultaneously promotes a vague sort of "cultural islam." religious practice is allowed within limits and under strict state supervision. in xinjiang, beijing is cracking down on the one hand and promoting "traditional uighur culture" in terms of dress and music over islam on the other in the name of "protecting the local culture" and paraded out on state T.V. variety shows. and then finally, using one-belt / one-road to undercut the islamists' support among the poor and building a material base of support for xi jinping's policies. Tajikistan is another case of a majority Muslim country in Central Asia having some hard restrictions on the practice of Islam. I don't know enough to really comment, but a quick glance at wiki shows stuff like having all mosques registered from the, banning children from mosques, and mass shavings of beards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Tajikistan#Recent_developments
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Jun 21, 2020 14:49
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Emomali Rahmon is a good man
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Jun 21, 2020 17:53
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A4R8 posted:Emomali Rahmon is a good man he's living and aware of his surroundings*, which is the best endorsement I can give to a central Asian head of state *I'm not actually sure about this
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Jun 21, 2020 18:09
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Btw, the nationalities question in the USSR had almost nothing to do with the composition of the Central Committee, but everything to do with local bad blood/historical memory, and plain old economics. The Baltic States were conquered in 1940, generally were moderately more wealthy than the rest of the Union, and had clear reasons to leave. Azerbaijan/Armenia were practically already at war before 1991. Georgia was already seeing a stirring of separatist movements by 1990. Ukraine was generally split between its Western portion (annexed from Poland) and its more Russophilic eastern half, and a desire for independence was split along those lines. Belarus and the Central Asian states actively wanted to the union to continue. Likewise, the whole thing about "speaking Russian" is a non-issue, I don't know who came up with that one. -------------------- The CPC clearly adopted a modified version of Korenizatsiia, whereas cultural rights are generally protected in a heavily codified form at the cost of political autonomy. That said, I rarely see the facts laid out in this discussion of what exactly people think is occurring. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 19:06 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 18:32
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Yeah the USSR was the successor state to a continental empire. It had a lot in common with countries like the Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary and exploded for many of the same reasons. Not really a good analogue to modern China.
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Jun 21, 2020 19:11
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does anyone actually ignore the great leap forward? also werent the peasants better off after the great leap forward? also wasnt the great chinese famine the last massive famine in china? weird.
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Jun 21, 2020 19:28
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:yeah i dunno. i'm just trying to learn about it. but it is brutal and, well, i think chinese communists believe in "reeducation" and remolding people's minds; i.e. brainwashing people. but they will say that that's true in western countries as well like in america where large numbers of children are systematically brainwashed in jesus camp. those children don't have a choice. now in the U.S. there is parental autonomy to raise their children how they want but chinese communists will say "lol no." us school children pledge allegiance to the flag every single school day from the time they’re old enough to stand
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Jun 21, 2020 19:46
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Ringo Roadagain posted:does anyone actually ignore the great leap forward? also werent the peasants better off after the great leap forward? also wasnt the great chinese famine the last massive famine in china? weird. It was also the last time that China was practically cut off from international trade. Isn't that weird hmmmm
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Jun 21, 2020 19:51
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Ringo Roadagain posted:does anyone actually ignore the great leap forward? also werent the peasants better off after the great leap forward? also wasnt the great chinese famine the last massive famine in china? weird.
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Jun 21, 2020 20:28
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Let me tell you why the Tiananmen protests are the most important event in history even though there have been like 20 larger protests in the US alone in the 3 decades since.
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Jun 21, 2020 21:15
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those are all really dumb takes guys
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Jun 21, 2020 22:36
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Antonymous posted:those are all really dumb takes guys Are you going to elaborate or is that it?
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Jun 22, 2020 07:29
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Ringo Roadagain posted:does anyone actually ignore the great leap forward? also werent the peasants better off after the great leap forward? also wasnt the great chinese famine the last massive famine in china? weird. anytime we arent talking about chinese communist atrocities someone should be asking why arent we talking about chinese communist atrocities
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Jun 22, 2020 07:49
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Ardennes posted:Are you going to elaborate or is that it? I saw you didn't like this snarky posting here or the other thread, sorry. Tiananmen isn't just a protest, it's an event where a government murdered people live on TV as the result of a hidden political struggle in the government and set the direction of the country for decades. It is a historical event worth remembering alongside other large protests and historical events, there's no reason we have to only choose certain events to remember. Yes it serves western narratives to constantly discuss it but I don't think it's better obliterating it from history. The pledge of allegiance is weird, I don't know why an 8 year old needs to promise daily in a weirdly elaborate chant not to take up arms against their government, but I also don't know why that excuses or recontextualizes internment camps on the other side of the planet. Neither this nor tiananmen square are super nuanced opinions. I think that the best way to discuss China is not all or nothing and not east vs west but instead more like you would discuss most other advanced countries where certain policies or leadership can be criticized without it being a race to the bottom with a rival or asking for total overthrow of the state. It's brainwashing that you're either 100% for the CCP's every decision and America should shut the gently caress up or 100% for regime change and imperialism. China is not balancing on a knife's edge and has every capability to change internal dynamics without inviting collapse or emboldening rightwingers on western websites. The opinions discussed on a comedy website are not binding, there's no reason to take such a postured stance here. I understand that the incredible ignorance and prejudice toward china by westerners is excruciatingly annoying but it doesn't make me hyperbolic when I talk about it and I think that helps get through to people better. I think thoughtful discussion makes most people aware of their ignorance and breaks down the us vs them mentality, like I'm sure people who read this thread would attest to. edit: I also think my original post was clear enough and completely typical of these forums Antonymous has issued a correction as of 10:48 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 10:44
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did you somehow miss the snarky post you were responding to that pointed out we have a large number of own similar protests that have been similarly memoryholed despite being of comparable size and importance i mean hell were literally going through another one right now personally i wouldnt find it that annoying if it was at least a whataboutism but somehow tianamen square rhetoric exists simultaneously alongside the illusion that electoralism is very real and my friend and the fact that most chinese people havent heard of it or consider it particularly relevant is considered a damning indictment of chinas authoritarian brainwashing in a way that say collective forgetfulness regarding the rodney king riots isnt
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Jun 22, 2020 11:07
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keep in mind when comparing how chinese view tianamen square that america has extreme collective amnesia or ignorance over its own recent atrocities that happened less than 10 years ago such as libya or the current on-going genocide in yemen
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Jun 22, 2020 11:29
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My experience is that Chinese people hearing about Tiananmen do feel something about it, privately at least, and people in Beijing do remember it. I'm sure older generations in Chengdu and in other cities where protests were violently cracked down on remember. I had a buddy tell me his dad told him that he stayed home during the protests and regrets it now and feels like he was cowardly when he was a college student, it still haunts his dad. Maybe the crackdown being an living secret has kept the memory alive in those who experienced it and within some of those families. I have another friend who thinks her dad was there but he won't talk about it. China has a lot of history since then which makes it easier to forget and move on, it's obviously more of a western touchstone which lets it work as propaganda. I don't see the same for americans with protests or school shootings or whatever. I don't see a relation with the blaisé american treatment of atrocity. Maybe having a focus on how you'd like the upvotes to fall on reddit's front page or what tucker carlson has programmed on his show tonight is the wrong way to get worked up about stuff like this. If pointing out Tiananmen to these people helps to highlight american struggle that's great, but don't let that rhetorical point get twisted into how you view Tiananmen or w/e because then your entire worldview is based on western social struggles and you've lost nuance. Antonymous has issued a correction as of 11:41 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 11:32
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https://twitter.com/redfishstream/status/1273313307647250437
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Jun 22, 2020 15:17
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We dumb moron westerners built the system that has oppressed and destroyed the world so basically we just need to shut the gently caress up and listen to functioning countries lmao
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Jun 22, 2020 15:33
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Antonymous posted:I saw you didn't like this snarky posting here or the other thread, sorry. a lot of the left has gotten particularly dumb about china in the last few years, views it as some form of actually existing socialism that must be defended. its just a symptom of powerlessness i guess, just pretending china is meaningfully socialist in any way is more comforting than recognizing the reality that capitalism has successfully & almost completely wiped out 20th century socialism
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Jun 22, 2020 15:35
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I'm just in awe of anywhere that has a functioning state that hasn't dismantled itself
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Jun 22, 2020 15:37
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I think all the discussion of how the Western left views China has to acknowledge how the ruling class in the West seems united in taking a more aggressive orientation against China and the Communist Party there. https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1273883231939690496?s=20 https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1274899809791508480?s=20 https://twitter.com/eAsiaMediaHub/status/1274963447000625152?s=20 https://twitter.com/krislc/status/1273520737718919169?s=20 https://twitter.com/euronews/status/1273722503878389760?s=20
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Jun 22, 2020 15:41
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