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I like how super nonchalant he was about it first, like if Durkon really was just a random dwarf, or a random dwarf adventurer Redcloak might have actually let him go, and was being genuine about his warning to get him to shoo. Soup du Jour posted:It’s super neat to see how intimidating Redcloak is in this scene, you don’t get to see that side of him very much and especially in such a physical way. I wonder how much of that was Redcloak testing him, getting really close and threatening to see if Durkon meant what he said or attempted to attack him once Redcloak was within reach.
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Jun 22, 2020 22:22
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Taciturn Tactician posted:"You... know my name?" I feel like him just calling you "Redcloak" isn't enough of an indication of that, since it's top three nicknames someone would come up for you if they didn't know your real name. It's his chosen nom de guerre.
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Jun 22, 2020 22:24
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Raenir Salazar posted:I like how super nonchalant he was about it first, like if Durkon really was just a random dwarf, or a random dwarf adventurer Redcloak might have actually let him go, and was being genuine about his warning to get him to shoo. Yeah, it really shows off Redcloak's pragmatism. He's unquestionably a bad guy, but he doesn't go out of his way to do evil things. Some rando dwarf is no threat and thus not worth the time and effort to destroy. Durkon, on the other hand, is a threat. Redcloak would almost certainly win a 1 on 1 fight, but Durkon is with a whole team of high-level adventurers. Raenir Salazar posted:I wonder how much of that was Redcloak testing him, getting really close and threatening to see if Durkon meant what he said or attempted to attack him once Redcloak was within reach. Nah, I think Redcloak was about 2 seconds away from snuffing Durkon out. It's a good thing talking is a free action.
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Jun 22, 2020 22:36
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Durkon is actually a few levels under the party, isn't he? don't you lose a level when you get resurrected (twice)?
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Jun 22, 2020 22:46
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ZearothK posted:Okay, so who's going to ruin things now, the Order or Xykon? The Order for sure, and it's going to be super tragic when they charge in and ruin absolutely everything less than two panels before Durkon singlehandedly solves the entire plot. Then we'll spend the rest of the book trying to rectify the mistake that's about to unfold here in the opening chapter.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:08
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sebmojo posted:Durkon is actually a few levels under the party, isn't he? don't you lose a level when you get resurrected (twice)? Huge amounts of high level innocents slaughtered might matter. The entire church of earth from high priest down, all the clergy in his home town, defeated, but not killed the entire order of the stick. It's possible that's an extra level or so to bring him down to a net minus 1
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Jun 22, 2020 23:29
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oobey posted:The Order for sure, and it's going to be super tragic when they charge in and ruin absolutely everything less than two panels before Durkon singlehandedly solves the entire plot. Then we'll spend the rest of the book trying to rectify the mistake that's about to unfold here in the opening chapter. I hope it ain't so, but....
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Jun 22, 2020 23:31
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sebmojo posted:Durkon is actually a few levels under the party, isn't he? don't you lose a level when you get resurrected (twice)? Depends on how much quest xp, rp xp, xp and ham, and so on Durkon might have gotten as a result of everything else. Also being killed twice was a bit of a gag. oobey posted:The Order for sure, and it's going to be super tragic when they charge in and ruin absolutely everything less than two panels before Durkon singlehandedly solves the entire plot. Then we'll spend the rest of the book trying to rectify the mistake that's about to unfold here in the opening chapter. Here's the thing, this also feels like too obvious of a setup, and perhaps Rich will throw us a curveball.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:42
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ikanreed posted:Huge amounts of high level innocents slaughtered might matter. It wasn't Durkon doing that,plus Vampires have a +8 lvl adjustment. Now, the RP XP oughta be reaaaal good.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:01
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Johnny Aztec posted:It wasn't Durkon doing that,plus Vampires have a +8 lvl adjustment. He did also defeat a vampire who had his class levels + 8, which has to be worth a lot of XP.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:04
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Taciturn Tactician posted:He did also defeat a vampire who had his class levels + 8, which has to be worth a lot of XP. that was belkar
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Jun 23, 2020 00:06
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Taciturn Tactician posted:He did also defeat a vampire who had his class levels + 8, which has to be worth a lot of XP. Tha....That is the aforementioned "RP XP".
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Jun 23, 2020 00:07
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Taciturn Tactician posted:He did also defeat a vampire who had his class levels + 8, which has to be worth a lot of XP. Nope the cr adjustment, which affects how much xp you get, is only 2. It occurrs me now you could have 2 overtemplated pcs who are both too weak to be worth any experience to each other.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:07
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Taciturn Tactician posted:"You... know my name?" I feel like him just calling you "Redcloak" isn't enough of an indication of that, since it's top three nicknames someone would come up for you if they didn't know your real name. I feel like a lot of this comes from his upbringing where adventures just snuffed goblins without caring. Even if it isn't his name, an enemy just had enough respect to bother knowing his name. For a guy working to fix the issue of "throw away" races, that seems a big point of showing that Durkon considers him to be an equal and not just another random goblin lackey.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:30
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violent sex idiot posted:that was belkar Technicality shmecklicality Durkon and Belkar both contributed equally to that outcome.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:42
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oobey posted:The Order for sure, and it's going to be super tragic when they charge in and ruin absolutely everything less than two panels before Durkon singlehandedly solves the entire plot. Then we'll spend the rest of the book trying to rectify the mistake that's about to unfold here in the opening chapter. I think that’s less tragic and more really really stupid and frustrating, especially because it would be doing a bunch to unwind Roy’s growth as a leader to trust his own people. So much of the last few books has been about the party learning to trust each other and work as an actual group of friends that for the Order to jump to “Durkon’s doing something stupid and we have to save him” would just feel like stupid filler for than tragic complication. I think it’s much more likely that nothing gets resolved here - Redcloak is in no way ready to take Durkon’s words at face value - but it implants a seed of doubt and concern in Redcloak’s mind that blossoms into a dramatic change in his plans later.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:43
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skeleton warrior posted:I think it’s much more likely that nothing gets resolved here - Redcloak is in no way ready to take Durkon’s words at face value - but it implants a seed of doubt and concern in Redcloak’s mind that blossoms into a dramatic change in his plans later. Yeah, I'm expecting Durkon to keep things short then bounce. It's less "Redcloak refuses to believe him" and more "Xykon is nearby, and Durkon doesn't want to be seen."
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Jun 23, 2020 00:53
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I agree, especially if it starts to seem like it’s working, but Xykon shows up so Durkon has to Word of Recall immediately.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:57
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Capfalcon posted:Redcloak grew up in a world where he knows the gods specificly created him and his entire race to be fodder for their followers and then murdered the one goblin that pulled himself up by the bootstraps. The idea that these guys now want to negotiate is legitimately surprising to him. I don't think this is right. Redcloak is certainly expecting negotiation - "negotiation and then betrayal" is a recurring motif in the Dark One's religion. Start of Darkness spoilers When the Dark One was just a mortal goblin, after he conquered a bunch of land he had a meeting with the humans to try and negotiate peace. But instead they murdered him. And then after he ascended to godhood, the pre-existing evil gods pretended to be friendly to the Dark One but failed to tell him about the Snarl. Redcloak would logically be expecting the PC races and their gods to pull the same move they've tried before. Which doesn't really bode well for Durkon's mission here - I think the "paranoid loon" comment is foreshadowing Redcloak's immediate reaction.
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Jun 23, 2020 02:09
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Ultimately Durkon's level is whatever Rich needs it to be, and has a lot of room to smudge the numbers to be whats needed for the encounters to come.Ponsonby Britt posted:I don't think this is right. Redcloak is certainly expecting negotiation - "negotiation and then betrayal" is a recurring motif in the Dark One's religion. Start of Darkness spoilers When the Dark One was just a mortal goblin, after he conquered a bunch of land he had a meeting with the humans to try and negotiate peace. But instead they murdered him. And then after he ascended to godhood, the pre-existing evil gods pretended to be friendly to the Dark One but failed to tell him about the Snarl. Redcloak would logically be expecting the PC races and their gods to pull the same move they've tried before. Which doesn't really bode well for Durkon's mission here - I think the "paranoid loon" comment is foreshadowing Redcloak's immediate reaction. This is certainly a theme, but remember that the end goal is for TDO, from a position of strength, to renegotiate the Goblin position with the other gods. From Redcloak's perspective this is just step 3 of the underpants gnome plan happening a LOT sooner than expected. There isn't any indication to my knowledge that TDO is expecting another betrayal with the snarl at his control.
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Jun 23, 2020 05:05
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I’m very conflicted because I think Redcloak is reasonable enough to consider Durkon/Thor/the god’s offer but also strongly believe that his sunk-cost devotion is going to lead him to stick to The Plan even in the face of The Dark One telling him otherwise and turn him into the final boss of OotS
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Jun 23, 2020 05:10
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is certainly a theme, but remember that the end goal is for TDO, from a position of strength, to renegotiate the Goblin position with the other gods. From Redcloak's perspective this is just step 3 of the underpants gnome plan happening a LOT sooner than expected. There isn't any indication to my knowledge that TDO is expecting another betrayal with the snarl at his control. I've been thinking this too, but the sticking point is that TDO isn't at a position of strength yet. He could well see any preemptive overtures of negotiation as a delaying tactic to allow the pantheon to snatch the gate away somehow before he can get it.
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Jun 23, 2020 07:24
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Raenir Salazar posted:Ultimately Durkon's level is whatever Rich needs it to be, and has a lot of room to smudge the numbers to be whats needed for the encounters to come. The problem here is that in exchange for TDO's demands, TDO has to perform an action that will necessarily permanently remove his trump card from play. That's a hell of an ask and he'd need the divine equivalent of iron-clad contracts signed in triplicate in blood to be willing to go into such an obvious inevitable betrayal situation.
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Jun 23, 2020 08:32
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ikanreed posted:Also it's explicitly not his name, now that I think about it If he thinks of it as his name that probably does say some things about him psychologically. In terms of how he's based his identity on his mission and all that.
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Jun 23, 2020 09:20
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Random Question: How come Durkon didn't use his, albeit short, time in Valhalla to visit his dad?
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Jun 23, 2020 10:58
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Satisfaction Guaranteed posted:Random Question: Durkon never went to Valhalla. He spent his entire time in the afterlife getting plot dumped on by Thor.
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Jun 23, 2020 11:33
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Right now the story can afford for Thor's plan to proceed as smoothly as possible, Redcloak being unexpectedly willing to negotiate, TDO being unexpectedly willing to trust Thor, the Order not interfering, etc... because there is still the issue of the planet in the rift waiting to throw a wrench into it.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:38
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NihilCredo posted:Right now the story can afford for Thor's plan to proceed as smoothly as possible, Redcloak being unexpectedly willing to negotiate, TDO being unexpectedly willing to trust Thor, the Order not interfering, etc... because there is still the issue of the planet in the rift waiting to throw a wrench into it. Yeah, that’s the other thing. There’s a lot of foreshadowing that The Snarl Is Not All That It Seems, and pacing-wise, it seems weird to expect this final book to both have a long set of miscommunication and missteps to resolve Xyklon and ALSO have a big “everything we knew about The Snarl is Wrong and the universe must react”.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:41
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NihilCredo posted:Right now the story can afford for Thor's plan to proceed as smoothly as possible, Redcloak being unexpectedly willing to negotiate, TDO being unexpectedly willing to trust Thor, the Order not interfering, etc... because there is still the issue of the planet in the rift waiting to throw a wrench into it. And Xykon, who despite being in the dark and despite all of Redcloak's planning is still an epic level lich.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:02
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wiegieman posted:And Xykon, who despite being in the dark and despite all of Redcloak's planning is still an epic level lich. Plus the fiends are still out there with two separate chances to take V off the table, and we still don't have a good idea of what their real goal here is.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:29
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Ponsonby Britt posted:Plus the fiends are still out there with two separate chances to take V off the table, and we still don't have a good idea of what their real goal here is. plus the 2 people who yoinked o'chul and lirian...
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Jun 23, 2020 23:31
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Overall there are just way too many guns on the mantelpiece for "showdown with Xykon at the final gate" to be the bulk of this book. While it's too early for Thor and the Dark One to just resolve everything, this isn't just going to go wrong, it's going to go weird.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:40
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Ponsonby Britt posted:Plus the fiends are still out there with two separate chances to take V off the table, and we still don't have a good idea of what their real goal here is. The exact meaning of "destructive unnecessary conflict" is a lot more clear now, though
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Jun 23, 2020 23:53
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ikanreed posted:The exact meaning of "destructive unnecessary conflict" is a lot more clear now, though
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Jun 24, 2020 00:01
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PMush Perfect posted:You think they want another Snarl? The conflict they want is between the order and redcloak
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Jun 24, 2020 00:18
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ikanreed posted:The conflict they want is between the order and redcloak really? Isn't that a given? I'm interested in what the fiends achieved last time they yoinked V, it wasn't clear at the time and it's still not.
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Jun 24, 2020 00:21
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ikanreed posted:The conflict they want is between the order and redcloak This doesn't make much sense to me unless SOMEHOW they knew years ago that there was a chance for the Order and Redcloak to NOT fight.
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Jun 24, 2020 00:37
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Remind me: does anyone know about the planet in the rift besides Blackwing and Vaarsuvius? That's going to be the big game-changer 2/3 of the way through this book that blindsides the good guys and the bad guys equally, I think.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:22
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DontMockMySmock posted:Remind me: does anyone know about the planet in the rift besides Blackwing and Vaarsuvius? That's going to be the big game-changer 2/3 of the way through this book that blindsides the good guys and the bad guys equally, I think. Yeah, V told Roy about it, and everyone in the Order saw the ocean on the other side of the desert one. Durkon mentioned it in passing as he was leaving Valhalla's waiting area, leading to Thor to respond in confusion after Durkon left showing that he gods don't (well, didn't until just then) know about it.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:27
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Shugojin posted:Yeah, V told Roy about it, and everyone in the Order saw the ocean on the other side of the desert one. Durkon mentioned it in passing as he was leaving Valhalla's waiting area, leading to Thor to respond in confusion after Durkon left showing that he gods don't (well, didn't until just then) know about it. alright, amend that to "blindsides the good GODS and the bad guys". I guess Durkon is too blindly trusting in Thor's plan to question whether or not Thor has all the information. Goddamn, it's hard to keep track of everything after all these years.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:33
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