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Congrats! Is the new gig fintech as well?
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# ? May 16, 2020 02:02 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 05:37 |
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Well done!
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# ? May 16, 2020 02:17 |
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Inner Light posted:Congrats! Is the new gig fintech as well? It is! It's sideways from the kind of work I was doing before (and a different language, was Ruby now Java), but it seems really interesting and with much bigger scope than I had before. It'll be a great chance too with a company that will be way easier to network in for any future job hunting. thank you!
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# ? May 16, 2020 02:28 |
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Shirec posted:Event: I start the interview process after a referral from a friend, and eventually get to the offer state. Hoodwinker fucked around with this message at 02:35 on May 16, 2020 |
# ? May 16, 2020 02:32 |
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are you really
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# ? May 16, 2020 18:16 |
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qsvui posted:are you really He is, can confirm
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# ? May 16, 2020 18:29 |
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It's for the same company at which I had my own fairly recent success story in this thread.
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# ? May 16, 2020 18:33 |
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Great plan, we can concentrate on learning how to negotiate extremely well with a few juicy targets
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# ? May 16, 2020 19:48 |
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I was going to stop posting about it, but there's been an interesting update to the lateral move I was posting about on the last page. I decided to just bite the bullet and talk to my manager about it before deciding what to do since she'd find out anyway as soon as I applied if I decided to do so. It turns out that the Sleep department has been lacking a competent tech writer for like 3 months now and my manager said that it would be great for the business if I switched over. She's talking to the other managers about it and demanding that they give me a raise (I didn't even ask). I'll turn it down if it's a poo poo deal and they don't give me a raise in writing, but this was definitely unexpected. And yeah I know it's a risk, but hey, I'll take more money.
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# ? May 18, 2020 20:57 |
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Shirec posted:I mainly lurk here and am friends with someone who is a bit more versed in negotiation than I, and figured I could post my success story! Congrats! Six figures in Chicago goes so much further than most expect
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# ? May 19, 2020 13:58 |
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Here's a stupid question. I work in software, in London UK, and in my experience recruiters always ask how much you're currently making, pretty early on in the process (usually in the first phone call), and literally won't talk to you any further until you tell them. I'm not sure if this "never say a number" thing here in this thread is a US centric thing; or if it's just that recruiting agencies are scum and it would be better to apply to each company directly (although in my experience there's not that much difference); or if this is just what the UK is like; or what. I'm not planning to search for a new job any time soon, but I was wondering how it might go next time. How do I actually tell a recruiter (whether agency or in-company or whatever) "no, I'm not divulging any of my salary history" and still somehow get them to keep talking to me? Like, by now I'm getting to be senior enough that I might be able to just straight up walk away or whatever if they keep insisting, but... that's apparently not how any of these "negotiations" go for any of you people in this thread, is it? (I've been lucky enough in the past to always find a job that either pays better or is at least much more interesting than the old one. But of course being better at negotiating wouldn't hurt I guess. I suspect that I might have been able squeeze some more money out of some of those previous jobs, by being more bold or something I dunno.)
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# ? May 24, 2020 14:50 |
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There's no trick. You just tell them to gently caress off and then the company misses out on your talents.
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# ? May 24, 2020 15:18 |
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jaete posted:Here's a stupid question. I work in software, in London UK, and in my experience recruiters always ask how much you're currently making, pretty early on in the process (usually in the first phone call), and literally won't talk to you any further until you tell them.
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# ? May 24, 2020 15:21 |
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Or lie to them.
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# ? May 24, 2020 16:46 |
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There’s tons of US recruiters that do that too- it’s not just a London thing
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# ? May 24, 2020 17:31 |
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Piggybacking on that, I have another company insisting to me that they're one of the special ones where negotiation and counteroffers are literally impossible. This time they're saying it's Hollywood that works this way, rather than the UK. The only reason I don't find that laughable is that they're claiming it's more about the situation than the industry. In particular, it's a child company that hasn't launched yet and is still allocating its initial budget. No one is on payroll yet. The large company with infinite money simply gave this group a large check, and said use it however you want to form an effects studio. Could they be right? They're not recruiting me directly, only my best friend who's on their initial team is -- it seems like he has less reason to shill for them. He asked me flat out what my number was and I refused to say, and told him why. He said that the producer is clueless what a niche researcher like me makes, and will ask for how much I cost and if I don't cooperate, that will be the end of the call. He claims there will be no counteroffer. Moreover the producer will NOT be bothered to look into market rates of my specialty because they've never hired that sort of research scientist before and likely won't again. The large publicly traded parent corporation will not help him figure it out either; they're fully on their own. The quickly-assembled studio industry just works this way, he says. Do new studio projects really work much more like a bidding process, where everybody states their worth or nothing gets done? More generally, is the advice of this thread appropriate for a new company, where the person hiring me isn't even on payroll yet? Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 03:43 on May 26, 2020 |
# ? May 26, 2020 03:38 |
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Piggybacking on that, I have another company insisting to me that they're one of the special ones where negotiation is literally impossible. This time they're saying it's Hollywood that works this way, rather than the UK. Hollywood is where country bumpkins go to get fleeced, so I'd take anything that comes out of their mouth with a huge grain of salt.
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# ? May 26, 2020 03:40 |
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I know, but I thought I'd ask because 1. They ARE a new company with no one on the payroll, which seems special, and 2. He's my best friend so it's a little jarring to have to play hardball with him. I already did, on that initial phone call, and I got him to gently caress up in a tremendous way that I'll tell you about in a bit. I do know that #1 is very common in Hollywood; big studio corporations *always* construct individual companies per movie production, to launder their association, so as to deny all their workers any semblance of job security or protections. But I want to hear some thoughts on if there's ANY universe in which he's right about new projects, where I have to name a number. Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 03:48 on May 26, 2020 |
# ? May 26, 2020 03:42 |
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I would assume your best friend is telling the truth, otherwise you need a new best friend. Based on what he said you should give a number that would make you happy and add 10-20% to it.
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# ? May 26, 2020 03:46 |
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Find your number, add a buffer to anchor at that high point, and go from there. They are showing their hand in that they have no idea what you do or what you're worth. There is good and bad to that, but playing hardball here doesn't really help all that much. Care more about where the final number ends up instead of trying to bid them up. I have definitely worked in places where certain positions had pretty fixed rates, usually for various reasons. Plus it sounds like they might be trying to rope you into a 1099, so make sure to clarify that before you pitch a number.
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# ? May 26, 2020 03:58 |
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Ooo, I forgot to specifically use the word "1099" when I asked if it was contractor loophole bullshit. Thank you, I will do that. The reason I trust him a little bit is because I do think he feels indebted to me a little, and maybe a little pity. He sees that I've been out-of-work for a while and always talk doom about the future, whereas years ago I landed him the job that launched his whole career. Similarly, he let things slip during the conversation that he *really* shouldn't have if he thought of himself as a recruiter playing hardball. On the other hand, now I've remembered Hollywood's bullshit industry tactics are something I know well from the doomsday economics thread. I know that even if this "new project, we're still forming our initial team" arrangement is special, it is the norm. Their hands aren't tied because the project is too new, but because big studio corps constantly set things up this way on purpose. That makes me more confident that I'm not just being too inflexible here. Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 06:26 on May 26, 2020 |
# ? May 26, 2020 04:05 |
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Now the question becomes, do I want to put up a job in Hollywood if the norm there is "put everyone in a shell company on 1099's"? That will depend. If it IS an 1099, does the "rule of 1000" apply? Space Gopher posted:So, if you divide your target pre-tax W-2 salary by 2,000, you should get an estimate of your W-2 hourly rate. Multiply that by two and you get a reasonable baseline 1099 contracting wage. Or, you can just shortcut it and divide your salary by 1,000 to start with. The classic rule makes it sound like being in a 1099 means I would ask for TWICE as much than if I wasn't. Does that only apply when comparing it to part time/W2, or does it when comparing to full time/salary too? If a 1099 job offer says they pay $200k should I act as though it's really only offering $100k? Or is the difference vs. salaries much less extreme?
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# ? May 26, 2020 10:27 |
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It depends on lot of things. The multiply by two accounts for things like you won't get PTO, your hours will be less dependable, you are more likely to go through stretches of no job vs not being a 1099, not just the additional taxes and benefit costs. For some 1099 jobs you might have more stability or more options and thus should be lower, in others you may have more costs or longer dry stretches and should be higher. 2x is a good baseline. If you are just starting out or doing more entry level in an office I'd set expectations that it'd probably be a little less, but that's not a bad ballpark to start in. If you work full time for a year, even after benefits, taxes, and a unpaid couple of vacation weeks you'd pocket more money on a 1099 2x salary. The extra is for the risk. Also, do you need this job? You sound like you have very little BATNA. Is it easier for you to find something else or for them to find someone else? You can still negotiate but if you have weak BATNA and they say they need a number from you or they'll move on you might need a new strategy if you need this job.
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# ? May 26, 2020 13:23 |
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Now the question becomes, do I want to put up a job in Hollywood if the norm there is "put everyone in a shell company on 1099's"? That will depend. The issue is billable time and bench time. Also additional tax burden. If you're remote, you can throw in more for co-working space depending on your feelings. Protip: negotiate a weekly rate, not an hourly. Apparently the big boy independent contractors earn their keep by effectively double charging time while delivering expected work to each client (eg you bill a week, but you only needed to allocate 20 hours that week to meet that clients workload). If companies do start doing this, the misclassification lawsuits will be hilarious.
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# ? May 26, 2020 13:29 |
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Now the question becomes, do I want to put up a job in Hollywood if the norm there is "put everyone in a shell company on 1099's"? That will depend.
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# ? May 26, 2020 23:20 |
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Ah, on the 1099 question he just responded that it's W2. It sounds like a pretty sweet deal then, absent any major hidden catch. My BANTA isn't great but it exists. One thing that factors in is my concerns about market volatility, and the possibility of such forces wiping out big stupid Hollywood projects. Meanwhile, I have a competing offer from a govt./MIC research job that sounds more immune to the economy, at least on paper. If you ask me personally, it's all volatile right now; the dollar could collapse in several months' time anyway, so my BATNA then would be that all US jobs options are rendered equivalently pointless. Additionally, I can always walk from the US jobs market as a whole. I'm drawing unemployment benefits for now that exceed my costs, and if those fail to extend for Americans in July then I'll be in the same boat as nearly everyone. I'm housing secure for a while since my wife has property in her name. I can move to China with her if things get bad enough here, if they'll accept a PhD worker from overseas. But this one does sound like a sweet deal. Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 27, 2020 |
# ? May 27, 2020 02:42 |
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I'll tell you how he screwed up from his employer's perspective. First, when explaining the project he broke NDA to tell me who the parent corporation was of the studio, which dispelled any doubts that yes, they've got infinite money to spend. Second, when trying to armwrestle a number out of me, he told me how *his* negotiation went as an example of how mine should go, and in it revealed what number *he* asked for, thus revealing his salary because they immediately accepted. He pointed out that I should be expected to ask for more, since I have a PhD to his BA. Then, I think I set some kind of record for this thread: He blinked, and he named a number for me before I ever named mine. As heated up as he got at my stubborn stonewalling, I outlasted his patience. He said how much *he* thinks I should ask for. He named a number that was $100k higher than what I would have asked for on my own. He said $250k. It makes sense, because his own salary is quite high at $210k as a high-level tech logistics person, and he says that I have a case to ask for more than him due to similar background (he was one of my students) plus my higher degree. I would have been fine with $150k since that's comparable to (or higher than) most openings I've looked at. 150k already sounds like a kingly salary for someone who intends to keep living as if there's 4000 in the bank, who just wants to build some emergency savings. I also honestly don't know my market rates because this job would have me working completely off from my specialty. He's looking at me anyway because I made a convincing case for why their project doesn't actually need an ML researcher, and would be better off with my specialty instead. They'd still be hiring me under that ML title that none of us know or care to find the true market rates of. Well, now I sort of know. Or at least, know he says they don't care what they spend -- and will just put whatever in the budget as long as it doesn't exceed big round numbers like a quarter mil. Don't put me in that spreadsheet yet, I haven't even interviewed. But god drat, negotiating a salary HARD works. Even if it means stonewalling like a cold motherfucker to your best friend, do it. It hasn't worked yet, but the thought that it could is insane. Imagine the difference this 30 minutes of negotiation could make after years of future employers assuming my worth based on that starting point, and scaling bonuses/promotions as a multiplier of it. Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 03:00 on May 27, 2020 |
# ? May 27, 2020 02:42 |
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If this is a fit for you, better get that job. If not for you, then for us. Godspeed
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# ? May 27, 2020 03:04 |
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This is RC Cola's wife. My parent company is looking to promote me from my current position of Assistant Director of Nursing to Director of Nursing at one of our other locations. I currently live in Denver and have second interviews for positions near Seattle and LA. The company near LA asked me to have a number in mind for the second interview. How do you go about not saying a number when they say that to you? The cost of living around LA is higher than Denver or Seattle, is that something I should bring up to them? When do you ask about relocation money in the negotiation process?
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 00:57 |
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RC Cola posted:This is RC Cola's wife. I don't know gently caress-all about your industry, but the Bureau of Labor Statistics says that healthcare managers in LA make a median wage of $125,080 as of May, 2019. 75th percentile is $163,590, and 90th percentile is $203,820. They're not moving you from Denver because you're below average. Ask for relocation as part of the negotiation after you have an offer in hand. They'll likely offer it early in the process and try to lump it in with total compensation. Value it accordingly. A one-time $10k relocation package is worth a lot less than $2k/year in salary if you're planning on staying in the job.
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 01:11 |
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Dik Hz posted:Bureau of Labor Statistics Whoa this is awesome, how do I use it? If I want to know how much my research field makes in industry in a certain city
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 01:19 |
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Whoa this is awesome, how do I use it? If I want to know how much my research field makes in industry in a certain city Start here: https://data.bls.gov/oes/#/home Edit: You can't do job, industry, and city. But you can do combos of any two of those three things. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jun 23, 2020 |
# ? Jun 23, 2020 01:39 |
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Dik Hz posted:I don't know gently caress-all about your industry, but the Bureau of Labor Statistics says that healthcare managers in LA make a median wage of $125,080 as of May, 2019. 75th percentile is $163,590, and 90th percentile is $203,820. They're not moving you from Denver because you're below average. True, but it's possible they're moving her from Denver because they're betting she'll underestimate the COL difference and lowball herself (and no one who actually lives in LA/Seattle is willing to take the job at the salary they want to pay). Dik's post is on the bullseye on what you should do and how you should go about it, OP.
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 02:18 |
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I recently came up with a sort of manipulative.... trick... to get through interviews with. I tried it on my last one. To my surprise it landed me a research lab job that I knew I was under-qualified for by objective measures. As thanks for this thread's advice, I typed it up for your amusement. It covers both the interview and the salary negotiation, since most of us do both. quote:
quote:
Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Jun 23, 2020 |
# ? Jun 23, 2020 09:28 |
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Con your way through an interview (even technical): I've had candidates who tried this stunt with me, and I shitcanned their resumes as they were walking out the door. What you're describing is the basic hard-sell. It's transparent as gently caress to anyone who's been around the block.
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 12:34 |
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Just be subtle about it! At minimum, allocate less time to the interview questions they'd remember that you struggled on, and more time on the parts where you sell yourself. Do use that final question; it came straight from this thread it worked.
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 13:04 |
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Just be subtle about it! At minimum, allocate less time to the interview questions they'd remember that you struggled on, and more time on the parts where you sell yourself. Do use that final question; it came straight from this thread it worked.
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 13:09 |
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Just be subtle about it! At minimum, allocate less time to the interview questions they'd remember that you struggled on, and more time on the parts where you sell yourself. In other words, I didn't go into the interview planning to do any of that; it just sort of happened on its own as the conversation took its natural course. It was only afterwards where I tried to reconstruct what the hell just transpired.... what interaction it was that caused my interviewers to unexpectedly start singing my praises at the end of the call. At the time I was just slightly aware that I was nailing an interview but I had no grasp on why at first. Whether I captured what happened well or not, it worked, and the next week they had begun hiring paperwork. E: For me it wasn't a forceful or aggressive thing. The same goes for that final question. Two people said it worked for them ITT, and I just liked it as a question -- not as a tactic, but as a genuine opportunity to tie up loose ends about the interview. Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Jun 23, 2020 |
# ? Jun 23, 2020 13:17 |
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congratulations on working for a company of dumbasses i guess
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 13:20 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 05:37 |
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Appreciate you taking the effort to post that, but yeah, I can’t imagine that “twist” at the end changing a no to a yes unless your future boss truly has no idea how to hire people except for picking the guy who wants it most.
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# ? Jun 23, 2020 14:27 |