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I liked the episode where the EMH created a holographic cardassian Josef Mengele and was confused on why it wasnt a popular choice among the Bajoran and Maquis crew. Also lol that Holomengele didn't even help that much
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Jun 23, 2020 04:13
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Jun 23, 2020 04:49
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McSpanky posted:What kind of idiots decide to park themselves right up on the border of a hostile power and then get pissed when the border shifts during/after a war? If these guys lived in certain parts of Europe in the last ~150 years they'd have completely lost their poo poo.
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Jun 23, 2020 04:53
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memes have come so far
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Jun 23, 2020 05:49
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:oh, and the best part about the maquis is that they could have always lived on any of the many sparsely populated colony planets in the federation. there was always like the equivalent of a small village with the rest of the planet completely empty. there's room for more than one tiny hipster enclave on any given planet. "You don't know how hard it is out here away from Earth, where there's a real struggle to survive." *proceeds to not move to places like Earth when asked* Maquis and Bajorans were written like complete morons through most of Deep Space 9 and beyond. They see first-hand the terrors that the Cardassians inflict on populations, and a large portion of them try to keep fighting the Cardassians the moment their peace treaties are signed. Sure, fighting evil is very important, but you already fought them and barely managed a win, and now you don't have the backing of other sympathetic parties anymore, like Starfleet for the Maqui or most of the resistance movement in the Bajorans case. In fact, fighting the Cardassians then means other parties are now more sympathetic to them and you come off as violent idiots who won't stop attacking a party that agreed to a ceasefire. A party that outnumbers you by several orders of magnitude, is better armed and has a solid command structure.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:49
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evilmiera posted:Maquis and Bajorans were written like complete morons through most of Deep Space 9 and beyond. I thought that this was the thing that made them so true to life. Lord knows that there exist enough armed movements who only seem to draw more strength from being shown that they are just violent idiots holding on to a lost cause.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:57
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here is my question and i ask it completely honestly does anybody out there daydream about being bajoran? or part of the maquis?
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Jun 23, 2020 14:39
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GolfHole posted:here is my question and i ask it completely honestly No.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:08
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GolfHole posted:here is my question and i ask it completely honestly A cardassian. Yes. A beautiful glinn.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:33
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GolfHole posted:here is my question and i ask it completely honestly Don’t kinkshame. Fantasies about being under the heel of the big beautiful Cardassians are just what some people like.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:50
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fantasizing about suffering oppression isn't that rare among privileged sorts.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:10
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Not me. I fantasize about living in the Culture and having two penises.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:48
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Kibayasu posted:Don’t kinkshame. Fantasies about being under the heel of the big beautiful Cardassians are just what some people like. Exhibit A: Pick and her weird lizard daddy issues
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Jun 23, 2020 16:54
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McSpanky posted:What kind of idiots decide to park themselves right up on the border of a hostile power and then get pissed when the border shifts during/after a war?
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Jun 23, 2020 17:00
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you guys remember when they wanted to settle the farming people on bajor and the bajorans were like, lol bajor is for bajorans? you'll dilute our precious cultural heritage then you learn there are only like 3-6 million bajorans, total, on the whole loving planet. star trek never does any of its scale correctly and that episode was frustratingly stupid, though that was partially the intention of the episode
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Jun 23, 2020 17:25
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RaySmuckles posted:you guys remember when they wanted to settle the farming people on bajor and the bajorans were like, lol bajor is for bajorans? you'll dilute our precious cultural heritage "We dont have enough food for you" "Our entire society is based on farming and terraforming, we can take your unusable land and turn it into enough food to feed everyone and all we ask is that you let us use the part of your planet you cant use" "What part of 'Keep walking, flakey" did you not get" And then Bajor dealt with yearly famines lmao
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Jun 23, 2020 17:34
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RaySmuckles posted:then you learn there are only like 3-6 million bajorans, total, on the whole loving planet. What episode was that from? I don't remember that at all.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:38
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Powered Descent posted:What episode was that from? I don't remember that at all. hmm, i want to say its a figure from that episode (sanctuary) but it might be from the shaakur episode. but yeah, they say point blank that there are like 6 million bajorans as though that were a large number. that's why the skrreeans were like "we'll live on this whole other continent and farm your food for you" i think its implied that the cardassian occupation "decimated" the population. still though, 6 million, lol
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Jun 23, 2020 17:51
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RaySmuckles posted:hmm, i want to say its a figure from that episode (sanctuary) but it might be from the shaakur episode. but yeah, they say point blank that there are like 6 million bajorans as though that were a large number. that's why the skrreeans were like "we'll live on this whole other continent and farm your food for you" For context that's roughly the estimate global population of Earth around 8000-7000 BC.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:56
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:For context that's roughly the estimate global population of Earth around 8000-7000 BC. Pop sci-fi writers are notoriety bad at scale and magnitude.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:01
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Bajoran pregnancy is a pain in the rear end so they don't have that many kids
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Jun 23, 2020 18:11
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Also again they're really bad farmers so untold children starve keeping the population in check
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Jun 23, 2020 18:13
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mango sentinel posted:Pop sci-fi writers are notoriety bad at scale and magnitude. I remember being like 12 or 14 whatever when Attack of the Clones came out and even then when they dropped that the clone army was A MILLION SOLDIERS I was thinking.... "that's it???"
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Jun 23, 2020 18:24
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Danaru posted:"We dont have enough food for you" Nah, the Bajorans being wary wasn't really that dumb; They've only JUST gotten their planet back, they're dealing with a tenuous relationship with the Federation and the Cardassians being just next door, and suddenly a bunch of strangers have turned up claiming Bajor is THEIR promised land. Can they please just have five goddamn minutes to enjoy having their world to themselves please?!  They actually are making progress to rebuild in the early seasons, it's just slow but steady and will eventually have guaranteed results even if things are pretty lovely for the moment after the Cardassians hosed things up on the way out. Having all these flaky strangers turn up would indeed actually make things worse if their farming efforts failed. Chomp8645 posted:I remember being like 12 or 14 whatever when Attack of the Clones came out and even then when they dropped that the clone army was A MILLION SOLDIERS I was thinking.... "that's it???" Wasn't that just the first ready-to-go batch though?
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Jun 23, 2020 18:34
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I don't know where the 6 million number is coming from. The commonly accepted number is 3.8 billion, which comes from Star Trek Star Charts. 6 million probably refers to one city or province or something.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:44
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RaySmuckles posted:hmm, i want to say its a figure from that episode (sanctuary) but it might be from the shaakur episode. but yeah, they say point blank that there are like 6 million bajorans as though that were a large number. that's why the skrreeans were like "we'll live on this whole other continent and farm your food for you" I took a quick look at Memory Alpha and don't see anything like that. All I found was that 15 million died during the Cardassian occupation, but that brings us right back to sci-fi writers being bad at scope. Over fifty years, that works out to 300,000 people a year over the whole planet. For scale, over a million people here on Earth die every year in car crashes, and over seven million from smoking. So I guess the occupation was only about as bad as having roads and cars that are four times safer than ours are in the real world.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:46
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Wasn't that just the first ready-to-go batch though? Yeah, I think so. So they had more coming I guess. Still, it seems like a comically low number to even attempt to make war with, given that the Star Wars galaxy is implied to be enormous, with many thousands of inhabited planets. It would mean that they had less than 1,000 soldiers per planet of the Republic (in total, so even less boots on the ground when you subtract navy personnel and everything else) Meme Poker Party fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 18:46
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"Two hundred thousand units are ready with a million more well on the way!" The grand army was only 200,000 infantrymen strong at the start of the war with the number rising another million in the coming months. The old canon laid out how dumb this was and talked about increasing the number of clones by using non kamino companies, which resulted in a gigantic, billions strong reserve force being deployed in the last weeks of the war. The Disney canon only talked about how clone production was still ongoing but never went into much detail.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:53
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Arcsquad12 posted:"Two hundred thousand units are ready with a million more well on the way!" Oh man so it's actually worse than I remember lol. On Earth, right now... 200,000 is a small army. Many individual nations maintain forces much larger than that even when nothing is going on. The idea of trying to pursue a galactic war with active fighting on hundreds of planets with that number is absurd. It's not much better even when those extra million roll out.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:59
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sweet geek swag posted:I don't know where the 6 million number is coming from. The commonly accepted number is 3.8 billion, which comes from Star Trek Star Charts. 6 million probably refers to one city or province or something. i swear i heard it as a throw away line in one of the episodes i know this cuz we frequently pause the show so my wife and i can yell at the tv. this was one of those things maybe they were talking about a specific region, but i'm pretty sure it was just a thoughtless line like "there are six million bajorans, we can't afford to feed anyone else" or something like that edit: to add to terrible numbers chat, there are 1 million space marines in 40k. lol RaySmuckles fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 19:07
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Chomp8645 posted:Oh man so it's actually worse than I remember lol. The sith aren't good at planning wars, okay? They really struggle to imagine an organizational structure larger than 2. 2 is all you need. Take the Death Star. A huge rear end ship that can literally blow up a planet. Terribly expensive and time consuming to build, putting all your eggs in one basket, to do something . . . not that great? There are cheaper ways to to kill all the people on the planet, or kill everything on the planet, or even leave the planet uninhabitable for centuries. Turning the planet to rubble means you don't get to use it either. And if your goal is to shock and terrorize all the other planets, well, to my mind a weapon that causes people to suffer horribly would cause more terror than a weapon that kills instantly. The sith are all about showmanship, not efficiency.
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Jun 23, 2020 19:16
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Yeah the agony booth was a way more effective means of discipline than the Death Star
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Jun 23, 2020 19:35
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barbecue at the folks posted:I thought that this was the thing that made them so true to life. Lord knows that there exist enough armed movements who only seem to draw more strength from being shown that they are just violent idiots holding on to a lost cause. Oh for sure. But it didn't make them the least bit likable. Or relatable. Sure, a bunch of episodes are actually devoted to showing people coming around to the fact that the Bajoran stance on things is really, really dumb, but overall the people of Bajor are just as insular and idiotic as they were at the start of the show. Even moreso, given they more or less get occupied again by the Dominion for the final seasons. The issue with Bajorans at the end of the day is that if you want to portray an occupied people you often want to do so while showing them to be sympathetic, and that is very much not the case with Bajorans. I'm struggling to think of a less likable party in a similar situation in Sci-fi. Heck, even the Cardassians got some sympathy after their civilian government got taken out and they got played trying to take out the Dominion, even while a lot of them outright stated they joined up just to take over the Alpha Quadrant.
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Jun 23, 2020 19:46
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Facebook Aunt posted:The sith aren't good at planning wars, okay? They really struggle to imagine an organizational structure larger than 2. 2 is all you need. Ehhh, I think part of this depends on how totally you think the Empire controls the galaxy. There are some works that portray it as having been largely successful at consolidating political authority, industrial potential, and military power throughout the galaxy, but there are also others that suggest that the Empire's grip on the galaxy is tenuous. One of my friends recently loaned me some comic books about Darth Vader which take the interesting approach of, at some points, having him go negotiate with some local powers because the Empire simply doesn't have the sheer might needed to solve every problem with force. The old X-Wing combat sim game fluff also strongly suggests that the Empire could be defeated (or at least stymied) militarily by non-Imperial forces, they just have to get coordinated and motivated to work as one because they absolutely will get crushed if they pop their heads up one by one. And I think this is somewhat borne out by the dialogue in Star Wars where Tarkin says the Senate is no longer necessary to holding the Empire together, because the Death Star will now allow the Empire to credibly threaten annihilation to all who resist. It's not a credible threat without the Death Star, because if the Rebels can throw up a shield on a remote base powerful enough to make the Imperial Starfleet not even bother trying to break it from orbit, how strong a shield system do you think a heavily industrialized and populated planet can throw up? So in this scenario, it makes sense that the Empire doesn't want a planet - especially a big Core world, like Alderaan - to be able to resist a planetary bombardment and serve as a rallying cry against Imperial brutality to the rest of the galaxy. A drawn-out massacre is not desirable - especially if it involves tying up a chunk of the Imperial fleet - because it gives the other planets time to coordinate, build up, and counter-attack.
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Jun 23, 2020 19:55
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evilmiera posted:Oh for sure. But it didn't make them the least bit likable. Or relatable. I always thought that the showrunners never wanted to show the Bajorans in an unambiguously sympathetic light. Bajor is a planet torn apart by a bloody occupation and it stands to reason that whatever politics emerge from that is going to be pretty hosed up going forwards. Kira struggled with trying to both keep on believing that Bajor can have a future as an independent and prospering polity of reasonable people who have a chance of making their mark on the galactic stage while getting poo poo on by her own ex-resistance-now-theocratic-politicians ex-comrades who just wanted to act out their traumas on a planetary scale as a hosed up form of therapy. Unfortunately the situation really favoured the latter outcome in every possible way, mirroring most real life post-colonial societies in every possible way. 
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Jun 23, 2020 20:24
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I’m sure I’ve said this before, I have to side with the Bajorans with them not letting that civilization from the gamma quadrant settle into their planet. Not only is there no need for it when the Federation is offering to just hand them a much better planet instead, but their explanation of “what if you can’t make the land workable? Do you really expect us to just NOT offer aid?” Considering the planets resources are basically at their limit, it would be a big risk to both people. If everything goes well of course that would be grand, but I wouldn’t risk my entire planet and its people. Edit: also keep in mind this is Star Trek where a planet is more like a single city in terms of scale.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:49
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evilmiera posted:The issue with Bajorans at the end of the day is that if you want to portray an occupied people you often want to do so while showing them to be sympathetic, and that is very much not the case with Bajorans. I'm struggling to think of a less likable party in a similar situation in Sci-fi. Heck, even the Cardassians got some sympathy after their civilian government got taken out and they got played trying to take out the Dominion, even while a lot of them outright stated they joined up just to take over the Alpha Quadrant. Like Sommerset Maugham said, "It is not true that suffering ennobles the character; happiness does that sometimes, but suffering for the most part makes men petty and vindictive.". Societies that are occupied and oppressed, especially to the level the Bajorans were, tend to be really screwed up. We have this myth of the noble victim, but in reality, that level of victimization tends to make people bitter and paranoid. As was said, Bajor was probably one of the best recent depictions on TV of a society recovering from military occupation.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:08
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Powered Descent posted:I took a quick look at Memory Alpha and don't see anything like that. All I found was that 15 million died during the Cardassian occupation, but that brings us right back to sci-fi writers being bad at scope. Over fifty years, that works out to 300,000 people a year over the whole planet. For scale, over a million people here on Earth die every year in car crashes, and over seven million from smoking. To be fair, in the future our time is looked on as an era of horrible social injustice and casual disregard for life that can scarcely be comprehended by most Federation types. 300,000 people a year being ground under the heel of a foreign occupation, measured against the previous standards of a peaceful people who generally have their poo poo together and haven't internalized the massive industrial scales of incidental deaths that we have, would actually be a pretty big deal.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:41
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The occupation actually killed 150 million Bajorans but the Cardassians recorded 135 million as "unspecified pneumonia"!!! drat your filing system, Marritza! Meme Poker Party fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 21:49
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The Bajorans see the greatest tragedy of the occupation as being the loss of 15 million Bajorans that didn't have the chance to die at the hands of other Bajorans.
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Jun 24, 2020 00:34
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