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I asked something similar to that last question on the interview for my current job and my bosses seemed to take it well. I dunno, as an interviewer it seems like a fine question to me as well. I wouldn't consider it some kind of manipulation of trick though. I don't know if the rest of all that stuff in the post is great advice though.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:03
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Asking questions as you go is a good tip. People like to talk, and will like you if you give them chances to talk. I get asked that "What hesitations do you have about hiring me" all the time and I have an automatic go-to to deflect. It's not a bad question I guess, but also it won't work. For the negotiation part, are you saying when you get an offer to stall and wait and not respond? That is not good advice.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:10
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I've asked if I can cover anything further or revisit something before closing. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of that as inappropriate. I've been asked it as an interviewer and been fine asking about something or just waiving it off. Similarly, having a pleasant conversational interview is good too. Especially early when you're building a bit of repore. I think the problem is framing it as a hack and trying to get one over on people is the problem. I have personally dropped people for trying to hack/smooze interviews. I have also been on hiring committees where we compared stories and saw their playbook.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:46
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Xguard86 posted:I've asked if I can cover anything further or revisit something before closing. This is how I phrase it instead of what OP said, as my usual closing interview question as a candidate. I don't think any interviewer would interpret this as negative in any way, can only help right? Just have to be able to actually answer if they do have a legitimate concern or question.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:39
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Xguard86 posted:I have personally dropped people for trying to hack/smooze interviews. I have also been on hiring committees where we compared stories and saw their playbook. Same. It's usually quite obvious what's going on. Our post-interview consensus is designed to catch red flags like this (not this one specifically, but in general). And if you stalled and wasted time to avoid any technical questioning that's going to come out, too, since that's literally the reason for half the interviews in the loop. I've also been at companies in the past where smoozing the interview worked, and I watched my bosses get snowed by smooth talkers that didn't know poo poo. So yeah I suppose you can find somewhere that it works, but there's a lot of reasons I'm not at those companies anymore.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:07
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I'm sure it's actually a quite viable strategy but probably more stressful in the end since you're self-selecting for the snake pit.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:28
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I usually close my interviews with "what questions do you have for us?" and "is there anything else you want to cover that we didn't?". We also can only ask the candidates the exact same questions and have to follow a whole slew of HR rules. So those are my catch all Q's at the end. Honestly by that part though I know if you are good or a dummy. I am not sure how anything from the OP would "work". Maybe I am to rigid as an engineer in interview processes...
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Jun 23, 2020 22:07
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Folks, you're in a dysfunctional jobs market that stopped hiring for productive work, and that was last year, before the deadly pandemic caused 40 million new unemployment applications. If you're not conning, you're getting conned, and the job you're interviewing for is likely to be gone in a matter of months anyway. Grab up what you can before it all closes up. The snake pit is all that's left. The economy is inescapable.spwrozek posted:Honestly by that part though I know if you are good or a dummy. I am not sure how anything from the OP would "work". Oh yeah, trying that would never make up for being a dummy. You still have to check the basic boxes needed for "a job", just not necessarily "that job". Even a dummy will have to be smart enough to manage a conversation about the industry at all, and smart enough to follow those instructions in the first place without overplaying them, or else like others said you'll come off as a con. Lockback posted:For the negotiation part, are you saying when you get an offer to stall and wait and not respond? That is not good advice. No no no--only to stall and deflect it when it comes to naming your number. Always stop short of saying one. There's plenty of other things to keep talking with them about, lol Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 22:57
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Some people really are just better at interviewing than they are at regularly doing what they are qualified to do, or even at working in general. I wouldn't fault someone for leaning on and optimizing for that. Every interviewer is going to, subconsciously or not, put some weight on how much they like the person they are interviewing. I don't think that's even wrong - it's generally better to work with people you like than ones you don't like. I also think I'm pretty good at spotting bullshitters when interviewing but, well, could just be I only spot the folks who are bad at it. It may well mean you end up at companies full of bullshitters but, well, I see jobs as a pretty short term thing anyway and I'm only looking ever for Mr. Right Now. I think it's a bigger concern if you want to find a job you'd like to stay at for a long time.
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Jun 24, 2020 00:36
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I really hope this place/people will continue on at some other forum (B&R?). First, I want to thank everyone in this thread for the advice and the resources when I started my first contract negotiation last September. I was able to get close to a 20k pay increase from the initial offer, 5k signing bonus, as well as an additional 0.2 in stock options (still worthless right now). There was a lot of concern from posters about the job being a start up job and that funding could dry up, but I figured there would need to be some sort of worldwide emergency for us to lose funding...... Fast forward to today. My company is still standing and doing well. We hit our corporate goals and received another $30 million from our investors, and will be in a good place to raise series B the next year. I love my company, they respect my time and keep me to 40 hours a week. During covid19, they allowed WFH, no questions asked. There's been great push for management to be as flexible as possible, especially as many employees have families and they said that personal goals/bonuses won't be penalized due to work slowing from covid19. During the protests, our CEO gave a speech that she stands in solidarity with the protesters and will encourages us to support them. She's rich a gently caress though, so I'm not sure how serious she is about it, but the thought counts. All my colleagues are fantastic and we all work closely together without any politics or personal issues. On the research side, it's been a blast. Got to submit 2 patents, 2 publications (1 in Nature, 1 accepted in Nature Genetics today), and 1 conference presentation (turned virtual due to covid19). Whenever someone has an interesting idea, even if there's no immediate payoff, we can go investigate it and perform basic research. I don't think my stock options will ever turn into anything valuable, but this has been an amazing experience and a good stepping stone for whatever happens in my career. I originally had the option to train for management, but I think I'm going to stick on the scientist track as I really enjoy research, especially when I don't need to worry much about funding. All in all, it's been amazing and hopefully will continue to be for the next few years. That said, I think my outlook might be different had I took the initial offer, because as amazing as this has been, I imagine resentment to feelings underpaid would kill this feeling. Thanks again for all the advice (including Not a Children, Motronic, KYOON GRIFFEY JR)!
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Jun 24, 2020 21:01
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Assuming this all works out positively, I would really like a post mortem on negotiating the purchase of this here internet forum by our own Jeffrey of YOSPOS after everything is finished.
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Jun 26, 2020 04:10
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Just wanted to stay thanks for this thread and for BFC! I have learned a great deal over the years with negotiation and investments! Having been through multiple career changes and having been on both sides of the interviewing table, the best advice I can give is to get people to talk about themselves and never name a number. Best of luck to those of you transitioning and searching for work in this strange times. Also, thanks again, Jeffrey of YOSPOS, for helping save this place! 
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Jun 29, 2020 02:19
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I have a friend who works for a startup that was bought out several years ago by a much larger company. The larger company is outsourcing most of their teams to India. This dude is a manager-level (like, eleven reports before they started cutting people). They've more or less admitted that all the teams will be outsourced in the next year. He pulls in $80,000 a year; what's a good ask for a retention bonus? The best people to train are leaving like crazy right now, so I think he's probably got some leverage.
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Jun 30, 2020 10:40
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Thanatosian posted:I have a friend who works for a startup that was bought out several years ago by a much larger company. The larger company is outsourcing most of their teams to India. This dude is a manager-level (like, eleven reports before they started cutting people). They've more or less admitted that all the teams will be outsourced in the next year. He pulls in $80,000 a year; what's a good ask for a retention bonus? The best people to train are leaving like crazy right now, so I think he's probably got some leverage.
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Jun 30, 2020 12:04
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Are retention bonuses generally asked for? In my experience they are freely given by management desperate to retain talent while the organization is falling apart.
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Jun 30, 2020 16:59
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Agreed he is underpaid unless those 11 reports are minimum-wage-type jobs. For retention Indeed says they can go up to 25% but I usually see them higher than that. It depends on the length of time, but usually 33%-50% for 6mon-1 year is pretty common in the software industry, but that was accounting for high demand.
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Jun 30, 2020 17:04
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Dik Hz posted:He should be leaving also. Director level (11 reports is effectively a director) of a successful start-up should be making more than $80k. Even in a low cost of living area he's underpaid to the tune of $50-100k Officer Koala Fart posted:Are retention bonuses generally asked for? In my experience they are freely given by management desperate to retain talent while the organization is falling apart.
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Jun 30, 2020 19:44
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My dad went through that back in 2000 ish. He is saying it was anywhere from 3-9 months (depending on position/level) pay to stay until you lost your job.
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Jun 30, 2020 20:35
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Anecdotal reply, but my old boss got 6 months salary to stay on for 9 months post acquisition and help with the transition. He was our IT Manager, managed a team of 8-10 sys admins
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Jun 30, 2020 21:51
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It came from reddit. Or why you should never take a counteroffer:Some dude on r/pf posted:I'm just at a loss for words.. https://www.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/comments/hikvdg/i_accepted_a_counter_offer_from_my_employer_and/
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Jun 30, 2020 22:49
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A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush that may resent you for going somewhere else to hunt for birds.
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Jun 30, 2020 22:52
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he didnt even really get a counteroffer he got a counter wellmaybe
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Jun 30, 2020 22:59
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:he didnt even really get a counteroffer he got a counter wellmaybe Right, a counteroffer is literally as of right now, signed.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:05
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:he didnt even really get a counteroffer he got a counter wellmaybe The fatal flaw in his plan, rookie mistake. You hate to see it, Bob.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:07
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Guinness posted:The fatal flaw in his plan, rookie mistake. You hate to see it, Bob. Right you are, Ken.
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Jun 30, 2020 23:13
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Glad I made that mistake two years into my first real job out of school. Now I have the burn scar for the rest of my career to remind me. Way better to make that mistake early when the hop would have ultimately meant about ten grand, a different faceless corporate overlord, and single than well into your career when way much is at stake.
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Jul 1, 2020 13:17
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There's no great shame in having been played like a piano by a company in this way; it happened to me, too, in my twenties; it happens to most young people, because most people are innately afraid of change and because all young people aren't yet willing to believe that their bosses' platitudes about Loyalty and Dedication are as empty as outer space, and whatever anyone may say, your relationship with your employer is always, ever, only business. It happens to most of us once, usually early in our careers. That's normal and expected. When it happens to a person a second and a third time, well, then that person will probably forever go through life unable to identify the sucker in all his dealings, and unaware that he is the sucker.
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Jul 1, 2020 15:25
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I'm a Software Engineering Manager in a smaller city in the midwest. I'm fortunate that I work for a company that recognizes my value and pays me accordingly. Being involved in hiring at my company, and talking to colleagues at other companies involved in hiring in our area, I know the market pretty well. This puts me in an interesting position in that I know I make 50k above average for my position in my area. I enjoy my job and know how lucky I am, so I'm never actively looking. But if an interesting opportunity crosses my path, I'll take a look at it and see what happens. Since I'm not actively job hunting, I usually don't make it past the 2nd round since I'm not one to prepare for technical challenges, and there are so many BS 2nd round technical challenges in software nowadays. I chalk it up to interview practice. All that being said, I've made it to the offer stage of an interesting opportunity that would be for the same position I have today. I've stalled long enough that they're really trying to force my hand on naming a number. The benefits comparison to my current job puts me at needing at least 15k to "break even" (no 401k match, no bonus potential, and worse insurance at the new place). If not for the genuine interest I have in the opportunity, I'd probably refuse outright at the benefits package alone. Knowing the market, I'm guessing if I get them to make the first move, they'll come with a competitive offer for our area, but it will still be significantly lower than what I'd want to see, so negotiating up will be challenging. Do I name a ridiculous number and see how bad they want me? Do I hold out for them to make the first move and see if I'm mistaken in what is competitive for our market? If they did meet an extravagant number, would that put me in a bad position that I'm immediately on the chopping block while they find a cheaper replacement with me as their stop-gap?
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Jul 30, 2020 06:20
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Good-Natured Filth posted:I'm a Software Engineering Manager in a smaller city in the midwest. I'm fortunate that I work for a company that recognizes my value and pays me accordingly. Being involved in hiring at my company, and talking to colleagues at other companies involved in hiring in our area, I know the market pretty well. This puts me in an interesting position in that I know I make 50k above average for my position in my area. What is their BATNA? Yours is to stay where you are. Are you so good that you are worth 200% of the local average instead of 150%? If you are that good, why would they hire you only to look to replace you immediately? If I were them and I hired you I would ride you hard, put you away wet, and fast track you for promotion, and give you less for higher level positions.
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Jul 30, 2020 06:31
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Good-Natured Filth posted:If they did meet an extravagant number, would that put me in a bad position that I'm immediately on the chopping block while they find a cheaper replacement with me as their stop-gap? This is what companies do to keep a current employee around to buy time to prepare for his departure, because that's the easiest thing for the company. It's very different to agree to hire someone at a sky high number--the easiest thing for the company in that case is simply to not hire you and hire someone cheaper instead, in the first place. You're in the greatest position, man. You should be in no hurry to depart your current role. You're in the enviable position of being able to tell the prospective employer the complete truth--"I love my current job and don't really want to leave, your offer is intriguing but it would take $RIDICULOUS_BUCKS to persuade me to come over right now." Personally I think you're out of your mind to even consider leaving a company where you're highly valued for a worse benefits package (especially in 2020!) unless you've somehow been offered a staggeringly ludicrously high salary.
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Jul 30, 2020 14:55
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I know this thread strongly mashes the "Get them to give a number first" button, but there is a lot of research into anchoring high too, and in your case that is what you'd want to do, I feel. Figure out what your number is to move, and give them a number 25% or so above it. I think it'd be wise of you to figure out what that number is now so you don't get caught up in the negotiation and end up taking a job under what you really want, if you're not used to negotiating you can end up playing yourself pretty easily. Like Eric the Mauve said, you are in a great place and personally I'd need a pretty big reason to leave a position you are in. I don't think coming in high is a big risk either.
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Jul 30, 2020 15:11
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Right, if they say no that's too much money, tell them good luck with their search and if they change their mind, they should get in touch with you. You've got all the power.
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Jul 30, 2020 15:45
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Lockback posted:I know this thread strongly mashes the "Get them to give a number first" button, but there is a lot of research into anchoring high too, and in your case that is what you'd want to do, I feel.
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Jul 30, 2020 16:45
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Thanks all for helping direct me towards a solid approach. I just got more info from them that they don't offer a bonus potential (I'm at 7.5% right now, and while I've only been here 3 years, I've gotten the full amount every year). If I include the lack of bonus potential, my break even is even larger, but I don't normally include bonus in any calculations since it's never guaranteed. They do offer equity (unsure on the details of that yet), which is something I don't have today, but it's a privately held company that I doubt would ever be bought out or go public anytime soon, so that benefit is counted as a big $0 on my calculations sheet. I'm going to tell them essentially what you all said, ask for a large increase well above what I'd be willing to accept, and be gobsmacked if they accept (or even get close to what my true minimum is). Good-Natured Filth fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 18:11
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Good-Natured Filth posted:I just got more info from them that they don't offer a bonus potential (I'm at 7.5% right now, and while I've only been here 3 years, I've gotten the full amount every year). If I include the lack of bonus potential, my break even is even larger, but I don't normally include bonus in any calculations since it's never guaranteed. In your situation, where you already have a good job that you like and a decent history of paying out, I would absolutely count that bonus toward your current compensation when doing the comparison.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:12
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Guinness posted:In your situation, where you already have a good job that you like and a decent history of paying out, I would absolutely count that bonus toward your current compensation when doing the comparison. ehhhhhhh There are absolutely companies that have a track record of bonuses and then pull the rug. Comparing companies that give bonuses to those that don't is tough, but I'd still value the money in compensation over the money in bonus.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:17
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My company proudly proclaims they have exceeded the target bonus payout for the last 15 years. However, we're expecting little to no bonus next year due to the covid related market conditions.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:26
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Yes, I know that. Bonuses are obviously not guaranteed. Normally I would agree to heavily discount it. But in this situation where you're already in a very good spot and trying to throw out a highball number, don't discount that bonus when comparing comp packages, especially when the new one is a step down in several ways. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 18:44
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Lockback posted:ehhhhhhh Right but for negotiation away from a company that hasn't pulled the bonus and has paid it's full value each year, they should count it, especially since they like their job and are basically in the best negotiating position they could be in.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:55
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Lockback posted:I know this thread strongly mashes the "Get them to give a number first" button, but there is a lot of research into anchoring high too, and in your case that is what you'd want to do, I feel. Also, decent managers know their own budgets and also know making the candidate name a number first is an aggressive rear end in a top hat move.
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Jul 31, 2020 01:52
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