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Ferrinus posted:well i should note that they are not ripping you off on their own terms. they're fairly trading exchange value for equal exchange value (one hat for one toothbrush, one hat for one day's labor, one toothbrush for one day's labor), so, by the terms of the free market, no one is being cheated and no punishable wrong has been done. you have to start thinking about the creation of value and not just its exchange to see where and why there's a problem. put another way, you have to realize that it's at the point of production, not the point of exchange, that capitalists gain their profits - and that's why socialism can only happen by transforming the mode of production (seizing the factories and running them ourselves, for instance) rather than at the point of exchange (forcing the employers to pay us higher wages with more benefits in trade for our labor) thanks, I think I get it now
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Jun 23, 2020 21:37
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indigi posted:this makes it seem like they are ripping you off though, and what your labor created is "worth" double what you were paid. I assume I'm misunderstanding something The whole idea that people are paid according to what they produce is a fiction that only applied to peasants and artisans, and only before capitalism existed. People sell commodities, those commodities are valued according to the labor it takes to produce them, and they are on average bought at close to, but not exactly, their values. The value of the worker's commodity is equivalent to what it takes for a conceptual average worker to keep doing the job, with a minimal floor equivalent to what it takes to keep them physiologically adequately healthy to work the job. Capitalism pays capitalists according to the share of capital advanced toward any project producing surplus value, and everyone else according to the value of the commodities they sell. The value added by workers into the variable capital of the capitalist is an entirely different thing that has no bearing at all to the market value of the commodity they sell. The worker would be paid at above the value of their labor power commodity if they were given any kind of bonuses for their contributions to variable capital. namesake posted:I disagree with uncop though, Marx spends the earlier parts of the book pointing out why market distortions can only relocate profits, not create them (all the stuff about being always being able to buy at 10% below market value and the increased costs of pottery that tributaries of the Roman empire had to pay) and then does work under the assumption of perfect competition to examine the ultimate source of profit - the extraction of surplus value which others have gone into. Don't go accusing others before you've done the reading. It's not profits that can't be produced by market movements, it's surplus value. All surplus value is produced immediately at the point of production. The profits of industries, however, appear on the balance sheets of industrial corporations, and surplus value is relocated between industries by them selling their products at above and under their values to each other. That's what the whole transformation problem deal is about : competition equalizes profits, and that can only be done by relocating surplus value between corporations not based on the labor time they employ in production, but the amount of capital they employ in production. Basically capitalism works in two steps: first capitalists employ workers to produce a huge pool of surplus value for the whole capitalist class, and then they divide the surplus value among themselves according to the relative amounts of capital invested. The total amount of surplus value cannot be known before all the individual commodities have been sold at the prices they were sold at, but once it's recorded on the balance sheets of all the corporations, value added by labor can be calculated by dividing the surplus value by how long all the workers employed during an industrial cycle worked on all the commodities produced and sold during that cycle. Doing the calculation while looking at the balance sheets of just a single industry doesn't work because industries neither buy nor sell at value, so their balance sheets don't accurately reflect the value that was added by the workers employed by that industry.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:58
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Jun 23, 2020 22:46
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counterpoint, we have a zoomer mod in this very forum and he's the most reactionary person to post here
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Jun 23, 2020 23:11
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At this point it seems like a gimmick since I’ve said it so frequently and for so many years but: I hate generationchat
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Jun 23, 2020 23:18
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Peanut President posted:counterpoint, we have a zoomer mod in this very forum and he's the most reactionary person to post here if this is referring to me rude
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Jun 23, 2020 23:18
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any recs for a good communist account of the spanish civil war
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Jun 23, 2020 23:18
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uncop posted:Don't go accusing others before you've done the reading. I was taking issue with you saying that perfect competition wasn't a relevant concept when Marx shows that imperfect competition can't create profits out of nothing and then does basically investigate an example of perfect competition to show profits come from exploiting labour. It doesn't matter if the terminology was different. If you're saying market distortions can increase profits for a particular firm then we agree but that's relocation of profits within the capitalist class, not creation for the class taken as a whole.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:25
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Jun 23, 2020 23:36
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dex_sda posted:Actually that reminds me of a question I had. How come computer touchers get more cash money? Is it just their ability for disruption is easier (just delete a database lol)? What forces are in play? they work in advertising which is the last refuge of money, idk if uve noticed but like 99% of americas recent success stories are creepy adtech datamines
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Jun 23, 2020 23:40
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shovelbum posted:they work in advertising which is the last refuge of money, idk if uve noticed but like 99% of americas recent success stories are creepy adtech datamines I mean that's certainly true, but that profit should be soaked up by capital and not find its way to the salaried worker in as huge a capacity as it does for computer touchers (absent all other considerations)
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Jun 23, 2020 23:47
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dex_sda posted:I mean that's certainly true, but that profit should be soaked up by capital and not find its way to the salaried worker in as huge a capacity as it does for computer touchers (absent all other considerations) in the actually functioning companies the rate of surplus value is probably the same if not bigger in the fart app fake company startup scene, every single aspect of the business is a giant grift anyway
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Jun 23, 2020 23:54
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GalacticAcid posted:At this point it seems like a gimmick since I’ve said it so frequently and for so many years but: I hate generationchat time for regionalism
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Jun 24, 2020 00:13
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mila kunis posted:in the actually functioning companies the rate of surplus value is probably the same if not bigger mmm I dunno about that, like depends what you consider grift and whatnot. it's all hosed for sure though, doesn't seem all that pressing to find out if it's 95% or 99.5%
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Jun 24, 2020 00:31
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Peanut President posted:time for regionalism Anti Midwest diatribes are always welcome. All other forms are counterrevolutionary
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Jun 24, 2020 00:32
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GalacticAcid posted:At this point it seems like a gimmick since I’ve said it so frequently and for so many years but: I hate generationchat i agree i agree
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Jun 24, 2020 00:48
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generational analysis is counter-revolutionary
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Jun 24, 2020 00:49
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GalacticAcid posted:Anti Midwest diatribes are always welcome. All other forms are counterrevolutionary yeah that's just what someone from the mid atlantic would say
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Jun 24, 2020 01:27
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Peanut President posted:time for regionalism The breakup of Yugoslavia was a deliberate project of Western powers in order to impose neocolonialism on the Balkans, with ethnic tensions used as a modern divide-and-conquer strategy
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Jun 24, 2020 01:49
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i feel obliged to point out that self-anointed marxist professor dick wolff describes the exchange of money for labor in which a laborer is exploited of their surplus value as being "ripped off"
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Jun 24, 2020 02:34
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Ferrinus posted:one thing i love about the LTV is how self-evident it is if you really drill down into it. like, think about it: if human labor couldn't produce more value in a given time than it cost to refresh itself for that time, human life and civilization would be impossible. we'd be flatly incapable of keeping ourselves alive because the nutrition required to keep us alive for 24 hours would take 25 hours to gather up or whatever (you cant)
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Jun 24, 2020 02:37
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comedyblissoption posted:try to come up with a coherent economic theory of age of empires 2 without labor value ive only just started capital but it seems like a major problem with an aoe2 analogy is that workers require no upkeep once created; unless you're taking an extremely broad view of defenses
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Jun 24, 2020 02:41
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How about a feminist podcast called Extremely Broad View
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Jun 24, 2020 02:49
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dex_sda posted:I mean that's certainly true, but that profit should be soaked up by capital and not find its way to the salaried worker in as huge a capacity as it does for computer touchers (absent all other considerations) tbh, i think it's probably because early internet computer touchers believed in things. basically all ancap or commie weirdos, and so you can get most of the tools for free as a quirk of that culture. this means things that make the products are collectively owned by the people who do the work
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Jun 24, 2020 04:23
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dex_sda posted:I mean that's certainly true, but that profit should be soaked up by capital and not find its way to the salaried worker in as huge a capacity as it does for computer touchers (absent all other considerations) I don't think you really appreciate just how much money they are making for their bosses. Like, I knew a woman who worked at Microsoft at a fairly high programmer level, and while she was making the "deece six figgies", by her calculations she was making her employers at least an order of magnitude more money.
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Jun 24, 2020 05:19
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namesake posted:I was taking issue with you saying that perfect competition wasn't a relevant concept when Marx shows that imperfect competition can't create profits out of nothing and then does basically investigate an example of perfect competition to show profits come from exploiting labour. It doesn't matter if the terminology was different. If you're saying market distortions can increase profits for a particular firm then we agree but that's relocation of profits within the capitalist class, not creation for the class taken as a whole. Perfect competition is a concept of walrasian marginalist theory, it literally did not exist until Capital was already written! If you said the words "perfect competition" to Marx, he would most likely to take you to mean perfect equalization of profits, but that requires commodities *not to* sell at their values! If commodities sell at their values, then profits can't be equal! What Marx is doing is saying that yes, things are sold at above or below their values in reality, but we don't have to worry about it yet because on aggregate, they have to be. Same with "market distortions", there's no such thing for Marx! Marx would never call rents a "distortion" despite them being a system of money being taken without trading a value-equivalent at all. Rents for him were a product of markets, and marginalists produced all their bullshit to say that no guys, capitalism has basically killed the rentier, perfect competition takes care of them. Just don't read Marx through the concepts of modern economic theory, that only makes it harder to understand what he's saying. The whole assumption that commodities would be sold at value on the level of individual firms is purely for the sake of example, so that later he can talk about a worker working for so-and-so many hours producing somehing selling for so-and-so many shillings rather than about calculating aggregates and working with big numbers that might be confusing to proles with only the most basic math education. But he's not talking about a world of perfect competition, he's talking about a world of aggregates where that worker represents all workers and the product represents all the products of those workers. uncop fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Jun 24, 2020 05:36
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im creating a new form of communism in which everyone north of the mason dixon line that has appropriated y'all while continuing to bitch about dumb southerners is SHOT DEAD WHERE THEY STAND why yes this is very specific why do you ask
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Jun 24, 2020 06:57
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https://www.politico.eu/article/second-liberation-of-rome-far-right-casapound/ nazis ripping off landlords is the new red-brown alliance
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Jun 24, 2020 07:04
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https://twitter.com/groundworking/status/1275293467699273728
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Jun 24, 2020 07:05
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dex_sda posted:I mean that's certainly true, but that profit should be soaked up by capital and not find its way to the salaried worker in as huge a capacity as it does for computer touchers (absent all other considerations) Even when computer touches earn well, their bosses earn way, way more. Salaries for computer touchers are also going down, as are education/experience/proficiency requirements. The industry was a gold rush at first, where capital believed computer touchers were magical and mysterious beings to be pampered lest they quit laying golden eggs, then the trade got legitimacy as one of the few still profitable fields requiring highly skilled labor; that kept salaries pretty high for a bit longer. Now the only game left in town is algorithms for ads of one stripe or another, everyone has realized it's mostly just useless fake work requiring a 3 month intensive course at most, and all countries have been churning out computer touchers as quickly as they can. The bubble has already burst, we are just waiting for the sound to reach us. Capital is trying to depress wages as there is no longer much growth, but the distance between laborer and capitalist is as large in this field as in any other, it was always just a very inflated one. thotsky fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Jun 24, 2020 10:21
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GalacticAcid posted:Anti Midwest diatribes are always welcome. All other forms are counterrevolutionary Chicago is the only thing worth saving, turn all of the suburbs and other places into people's wheat plantations
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Jun 24, 2020 10:43
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Scionix posted:im creating a new form of communism in which everyone north of the mason dixon line that has appropriated y'all while continuing to bitch about dumb southerners is SHOT DEAD WHERE THEY STAND 
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Jun 24, 2020 14:29
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Scionix posted:im creating a new form of communism in which everyone north of the mason dixon line that has appropriated y'all while continuing to bitch about dumb southerners is SHOT DEAD WHERE THEY STAND 
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Jun 24, 2020 14:32
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Any thoughts on Jason Hickel’s “The Divide” He has some unsavory associations (somebody from Extinction Rebellion wrote a foreword for his other book,  ) but I liked an interview he gave on citations needed and a couple of his posts at the guardian.I basically need a read on global inequality with some normie-friendly framing. I really struggle to explain myself when confronted with questions like "why is [resource rich, public service & income poor] country so poor?” without resorting to just saying imperialism & underdevelopment. Which is of course true but it’s unsatisfactory for someone not on board. Maybe there’s somebody from Developing Economics with a better alternative book along these lines.
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Jun 24, 2020 18:21
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Of all the threads, I will miss this one the most.
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Jun 24, 2020 18:24
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Scionix posted:im creating a new form of communism in which everyone north of the mason dixon line that has appropriated y'all while continuing to bitch about dumb southerners is SHOT DEAD WHERE THEY STAND
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Jun 24, 2020 18:32
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Yea. I’m not leaving the forums just because lowtax is a piece of poo poo lol
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Jun 24, 2020 18:36
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GalacticAcid posted:Yea. I’m not leaving the forums just because lowtax is a piece of poo poo lol
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Jun 24, 2020 18:41
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gonna post more so he runs out of money quicker, duh
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Jun 24, 2020 18:59
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Truga posted:gonna post more so he runs out of money quicker, duh i'm doing my part
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Jun 24, 2020 19:02
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