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The libertarian argument in the past has always been that the civil war was unnecessary, and that slavery was basically ending on its own due to market forces. No need to trample all over the rights of plantation owners, they were going to free all of their slaves imminently if stupid Northern leftists would have just waited a few more days. And also that the war wasn't about slaves at all, but simply government tyranny in the form of the union trying to claw back a bunch of seceded states (please don't ask why those states seceded)
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Jun 21, 2020 23:37
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For context on why Gabriel S. is fishing around for good libertarian arguments, here's a post from the GE thread:Gabriel S. posted:I mean, I agree with you entirely but the larger a companies grows the more jobs we're going to have. If lovely wealthy investors get a cut but others get employment that's a fair trade. I suspect they're doing the argumentation equivalent of asking us for homework help.
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Jun 22, 2020 00:20
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Somfin posted:For context on why Gabriel S. is fishing around for good libertarian arguments, here's a post from the GE thread: Good God you are paranoid. This was prior to any discussion of taxation in the GE Thread and related to earlier posts how libertarians were driven out of SA. I wanted to see if there were any debates for my own knowledge because I've learned a ton in the past from reading them. One of the resources I even referenced is a excellent resource against libertarian arguments but it's great have more than one source.
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Jun 22, 2020 00:34
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For the record, larger individual companies typically results in less overall jobs, because that's one of the biggest economies of scale: Administrative and executive staff can be much, much smaller relative to the total size of the workforce in a larger company than a smaller company. After corporate mergers, there's typically lots of layoffs to get rid of redundant staff (as well as the reduction in need to compete after eliminating a competitor so less pay rises or gambles on innovation). I don't think the size of an individual corporation typically has an effect on the size of the market or the size of an overall industry, and since antitrust protections are mostly dead, there are plenty of people out there who know that and are just trying to gain enough of a marketshare to be able to assert control over their industry rather than risk competition.
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Jun 22, 2020 01:21
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Rather like saying conquering armies create land, I think.
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Jun 22, 2020 05:33
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Dijkgraven in the Netherlands do, although they're civil and not military despite the graaf title. Also the legal code they operate (or used to at least) under is called a Water Canon.
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Jun 22, 2020 13:38
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i was listening to a video of ben shapiro DESTROYING the concept of systemic racism. he made a lot of typically dumb ben shapiro level arguments, but one that kind of went under my radar was an argument he made about wealthy people. apparently 70% of millenials and 52% of boomers thought that wealthy people inherited their wealth, but shapiro cited a study that said only 15% did. i figured there was something fishy about that statistic, but couldn't exactly figure out what. now the mistake that i made initially was thinking that most of these rich folks came from well to do, middle, upper middle class households, which, while impressive to become a millionaire, is not exactly a rags to riches story. but then i come to find out that i once again, gave ben too much credit. because it turns out that the way the study was done, somebody who was born into a millionaire/billionaire family, who became a millionaire while their parents were still alive, would be counted in this figure. if you grew up in beverly hills, well your financial success would become far, far less impressive. VideoTapir posted:According to Piketty, the historical average rate of return on capital would have them making that money back in about 30 years. waiting 30 years to make back your money sounds like a pretty inefficient business plan, imo
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Jun 24, 2020 03:50
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Mr Interweb posted:i was listening to a video of ben shapiro DESTROYING the concept of systemic racism. he made a lot of typically dumb ben shapiro level arguments, but one that kind of went under my radar was an argument he made about wealthy people. apparently 70% of millenials and 52% of boomers thought that wealthy people inherited their wealth, but shapiro cited a study that said only 15% did. I want to say there is a very similar number kicking around about retaining generational wealth to get rich people to pay for wealth management etc. If you try to actual trace through the citations, it appears to be completely made up. In true libertarian fashion at one point someone claimed a study said x and no one checked it. Then people cite that work etc and suddenly it's gospel.
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Jun 24, 2020 06:18
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That sounds like a very easy statistic to fudge. Most people who owe their wealth to nepotism haven't technically inherited anything yet.
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Jun 24, 2020 17:57
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I remember there was some study that discovered some not insignificant segment of "class mobility" consisted of the children of rich people going off to be artists or similar and not technically having much wealth themselves, and then THEIR children, grandchildren of the rich people, going back to the well of being investment bankers or whatnot.
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Jul 3, 2020 22:41
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imagine my shock: https://twitter.com/PatFitzgerald23/status/1280217058677084160
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Jul 6, 2020 22:43
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https://twitter.com/theepicdept/status/1286371817209434113?s=21
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Jul 23, 2020 19:49
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So is the first guy just straight up saying slavery was a good idea
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Jul 23, 2020 20:26
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VitalSigns posted:So is the first guy just straight up saying slavery was a good idea Yes. That said - and this is probably going to get me in a bit of a pickle, but gently caress it - if you have no other choice except between slavery as it's described in the Bible, with a bunch of rules and regulations surrounding it and what you can and can't do, how long you can keep someone in bondage and for what reasons, and the slavery as practiced in the US South? Out of two terrible choice, the Biblical version is the lesser evil. They are both absolutely terrible, mind, but the former at least gives you some hint of legal protections, while the latter... Yeah. However, just to be clear: gently caress slavery and hang all slavers from the nearest lamp-post. TLM3101 fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 07:22
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France tried to introduce laws as to how you could treat slaves in Haiti, although in practice slaves only know as much about the rules as you tell them and it's basically impossible to enforce those laws on owners unless the slaveowners turned themselves in. A whole lot like how a lot of modern labor regulations can't be enforced without united worker action. This did lead to some of the earlier waves of slave rebellions in the Haitian revolution being crown loyalists, because the laws as to the rights of slaves came from the king's administration.
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Jul 27, 2020 17:15
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SlothfulCobra posted:
You see this same language in the american revolution as well. The revolutionaries appealed to their devotion to the king to protect them against the parliament and uphold their rights as Englishmen.
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Jul 27, 2020 19:22
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Ron Jeremy posted:You see this same language in the american revolution as well. The revolutionaries appealed to their devotion to the king to protect them against the parliament and uphold their rights as Englishmen. If only the Czar knew.
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Jul 28, 2020 09:42
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TLM3101 posted:Yes. As long as you happen to be a jew, maybe. You're still allowed to be beaten to death, though.
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Jul 28, 2020 10:16
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This belongs here https://twitter.com/TheEpicDept/status/1288820355960799233 Which is probably more being anti-police because he is a literal terrorist than it is being pro-black, but it's a little fun to see.
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Jul 31, 2020 05:36
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VKing posted:As long as you happen to be a jew, maybe. You're still allowed to be beaten to death, though. It's complicated by the fact that the Torah has a few variations of laws regarding the treatment of slaves, and complicated still further by the fact that the Talmud has its own interpretations of those laws. Basically, it's a difference comparable to being buried in poo poo up to your chest, and being buried in poo poo up to your neck; In both cases, you're buried in poo poo. Neither is at all desirable, but one is still - marginally - preferable to the other. Of course, this assumes that these are the only two choices. Which is not the case. The objectively correct choice is to not have any slaves at all, because it's an abomination.
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Aug 1, 2020 20:16
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I don't see much point in trying to quantify which form of being owned as property and being able to beaten to death is better than the other.
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Aug 1, 2020 23:07
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2020 don't stop https://twitter.com/jimantle/status/1291898086541930503?s=20
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Aug 8, 2020 05:12
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Is that not how the candidate is normally chosen?
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Aug 8, 2020 05:52
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There are so many questions...
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Aug 9, 2020 08:11
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Is the bat okay?
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Aug 9, 2020 14:04
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Good point actually, the bat might have contracted libertarianism.
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Aug 9, 2020 14:33
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Poor bat, biting an active libertarian and turning into Bruce Wayne 
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Aug 9, 2020 15:59
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OwlFancier posted:Good point actually, the bat might have contracted libertarianism. that bat is currently making a case to its bat friends and family that letting Peabody Energy strip mine their homes would be good, actually
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Aug 9, 2020 16:18
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https://twitter.com/nbcbayarea/status/1293565510425206797
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Aug 12, 2020 18:30
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No...wait. Come back.
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Aug 12, 2020 21:24
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shock and awe https://twitter.com/newscientist/status/1297420395423895552 i know that on SOME level, it may make sense that giving people will make them lazy and not want to work, but i feel like conservatives never took into the idea that people, no matter how lazy, generally want...MORE money instead of being stuck at one level for the rest of their lives. many years ago, i was on unemployment, which was the typical $400/wk (for cali), and while it was enough to sustain my style of living for at least a little while, i was making twice as much as that on the job that i got let go from. i never once thought to myself "well yes, you could make 40k/yr, but wouldn't it be even BETTER if i made half of that?!"
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Aug 23, 2020 21:46
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Mr Interweb posted:i feel like conservatives never took into the idea that people, no matter how lazy, generally want...MORE money instead of being stuck at one level for the rest of their lives Conservatives that say that are kind of missing the point anyway. The point isn’t necessarily that welfare disincentives productivity (though it does in some cases), the point - from a libertarian perspective - is that it just isn’t the government’s money to give away in the first place.
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Aug 23, 2020 21:51
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Mr Interweb posted:i feel like conservatives never took into the idea that people, no matter how lazy, generally want...MORE money instead of being stuck at one level for the rest of their lives. It makes intuitive sense when a millionaire wants to become a multimillionaire but they still have to pretend that the poor are lazy and thus would not work if given a basic income.
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Aug 23, 2020 21:52
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Yeah it's not nothing to do with reality, it's a post-hoc rationalization for why they're better than other people and/or a tool for making sure they keep their positions.
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Aug 23, 2020 22:03
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oh yeah, the 'laziness' argument may not be a genuine one from the minds of the rightwing thoughtleaders, but it is something genuinely believed by the foot soldiers
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Aug 23, 2020 22:25
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Mr Interweb posted:i know that on SOME level, it may make sense that giving people will make them lazy and not want to work, but i feel like conservatives never took into the idea that people, no matter how lazy, generally want...MORE money instead of being stuck at one level for the rest of their lives. many years ago, i was on unemployment, which was the typical $400/wk (for cali), and while it was enough to sustain my style of living for at least a little while, i was making twice as much as that on the job that i got let go from. okay but what if you made half of that and also were not selling half of your waking hours away? there are absolutely people who would not work very much if survival was not on the line, i know because i'm one of them. i'd rather have my time than the extra money. if society was truly on the brink and every person's labor was necessary, UBI would absolutely reduce productivity in undesirable ways as the people who don't feel driven by accumulation would not work. turns out that in tyool 2020 we've got robots and automation and poo poo tho so a significant proportion of the population could not pursue traditional employment and everything would be fine
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Aug 24, 2020 01:16
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Jazerus posted:okay but what if you made half of that and also were not selling half of your waking hours away? i mean, if you don't like your job, sure...? i was talking about people who either like their job or don't mind it. obviously if you're miserable, yeah you may want to take a pay cut to not deal with bullshit (as i have),
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Aug 24, 2020 01:59
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Mr Interweb posted:i mean, if you don't like your job, sure...? i was talking about people who either like their job or don't mind it. obviously if you're miserable, yeah you may want to take a pay cut to not deal with bullshit (as i have), compared to 99% of things i could be doing for money, i do enjoy my job. i still would rather not do it more than, say, one year out of every three, if the option existed to just gently caress off for the other two years on a basic income. to be clear, i think there are enough people driven by accumulation to sustain an automated society indefinitely, but this is a threshold we only reached recently as a civilization. abolition of involuntary work is within our reach if people realized it was possible and had the power to overcome the societal forces that currently render it impossible.
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Aug 24, 2020 03:21
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Mr Interweb posted:oh yeah, the 'laziness' argument may not be a genuine one from the minds of the rightwing thoughtleaders, but it is something genuinely believed by the foot soldiers OTOH Ayn Rand is one of the messianic authors of the modern conservative and the thesis of Atlas Shrugged is that poor people are so lazy that society will literally collapse if they don't have rich people around giving them jobs and telling them what to do Dudes like Rand Paul and other idiot hellfuckers absolutely believe that poor people are just very lazy, see the Welfare Queen myth
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Aug 24, 2020 05:53
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There's a complicated sadism where they need to know that there is suffering in order to justify what they do to keep themselves as far up as they are. It's important that the levels beneath them be as terrible as possible. Of course, the less philosophical perspective is the bullshit math of so-called "fiscal conservatism", where any governmental expenditures must be infinitely reduced, because in theory that means the theoretical tax burden can be reduced. No you can't actually go through the numbers to see what costs the most, what expenditures actually reduce the overall financial burden on the government, and whether tax revenue even actually covers the government's budget. Obviously it's the social programs creating a better society that are just pissing away huge amounts of money, and the military and corporate subsidies are nothing. No you CAN'T show me your detailed charts and graphs OR your elegant infographic on how your social program can easily be paid for and increases the overall prosperity, STOP POSTING THAT. I'll stick to my goddamn fictional math with no real numbers. Laffer curve. Also something about how the more desperate workers are, the less power labor has.
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Aug 24, 2020 06:04
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