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CelticPredator posted:Alien movies should be mean strong agree, it's cosmic horror. if you're a human you either die or go insane. not great news
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Jun 23, 2020 12:25
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I don’t like the implication that the xenomorph isn’t some ancient horror that the crew of the Nostromo woke up, but rather something created by an android only 18 years before. My head canon is that the xenos have always been that way, and that David’s experimentation didn’t change anything one iota, outside of variance we’ve already seen (dog alien, etc).
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Jun 23, 2020 12:56
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As much as I love Prometheus I also like to think the space jockey ship is just another version of the Nostromo. The galaxy is full of cosmic awfulness and even the giant space elephants are dumb idiots who got their poo poo hosed up cause one of them couldn't help but look inside an egg.
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Jun 23, 2020 13:04
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The_Doctor posted:I don’t like the implication that the xenomorph isn’t some ancient horror that the crew of the Nostromo woke up, but rather something created by an android only 18 years before. Going by the mural in the canister chamber(?) and the creation of the Trilobite & Deacon in Prometheus permutations of the Xenomorph have always been linked to the black goo and it isn't a novel creation of David, he just got it to be expressed in the particular incarnation we see in the Alien films and he's still just dipping his toes in the unknowable waters of whatever the hell the black goo actually is
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Jun 23, 2020 13:13
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After months of people shrieking that they don't want to wear a mask and they want to pretend everything is normal so they can go back to Great Clips, any lingering qualms I had about horror movie characters making dumb decisions in dangerous circumstances have washed away.
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Jun 23, 2020 13:37
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Owlbear Camus posted:After months of people shrieking that they don't want to wear a mask and they want to pretend everything is normal so they can go back to Great Clips, any lingering qualms I had about horror movie characters making dumb decisions in dangerous circumstances have washed away. If God wants me to follow this creepy evil android into the basement to peer inside an extremely sus egg, then he'll take me No Dignity fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 13:48
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His character did think that
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Jun 23, 2020 13:54
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multijoe posted:Going by the mural in the canister chamber(?) and the creation of the Trilobite & Deacon in Prometheus permutations of the Xenomorph have always been linked to the black goo and it isn't a novel creation of David, he just got it to be expressed in the particular incarnation we see in the Alien films and he's still just dipping his toes in the unknowable waters of whatever the hell the black goo actually is Yeah David was working on it for some time from already existing concepts and the xenomorph itself as he already saw portrayed+read about. It's not like he personally created or invented them. I do wish we had gotten a third flick to wrap things up. I know as of last like May he was officially developing one but there hasn't been anything since then so I assume it's dead.
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Jun 23, 2020 13:56
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https://twitter.com/gray/status/1275377090527924227
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Jun 23, 2020 16:29
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Neo Rasa posted:Yeah David was working on it for some time from already existing concepts and the xenomorph itself as he already saw portrayed+read about. It's not like he personally created or invented them. It's crazy how many people came away from the films not getting this. But in a way I understand why, because so much of David's learning comes without any obvious exposition. Like in Prometheus, how he basically goes around learning the ship's systems but it's not like there's ever a conversation where he lays all of this out to the audience. You just see him doing it.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:42
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CelticPredator posted:Alien movies should be mean I disagree. The two best movies in the series (in my opinion) both ended on somewhat positive notes. In Alien, Ripley not only saves herself and kills the Xenomorph, but she also saves Jonesy. In Aliens, she destroys the alien colony, kills the alien queen, and saves both Hicks and Newt. Sure, tons of bad things happen along the way, but if bad things happen 100% of the time, I think the movies change from engaging to depressing. I would argue that the first major misstep of the series was killing Hicks and Newt at the beginning of Alien 3, robbing viewers of the semi-happy ending that Aliens implied.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:56
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DorianGravy posted:I disagree. The two best movies in the series (in my opinion) both ended on somewhat positive notes. In Alien, Ripley not only saves herself and kills the Xenomorph, but she also saves Jonesy. In Aliens, she destroys the alien colony, kills the alien queen, and saves both Hicks and Newt. Sure, tons of bad things happen along the way, but if bad things happen 100% of the time, I think the movies change from engaging to depressing. I would argue that the first major misstep of the series was killing Hicks and Newt at the beginning of Alien 3, robbing viewers of the semi-happy ending that Aliens implied. Wait until you have goons coming out saying that Hicks and Newt dying was the best thing that Alien3 did which I never understood.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:06
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e: lol ^^^ Killing Hicks and Newt sucks if you're a fan of Aliens (and I am) but it kind of owns as a decision for the general Alien universe, where things range from "God is indifferent and cruel and you are meat" to "God hates you, personally." Aliens is really the outlier.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:13
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sigher posted:Wait until you have goons coming out saying that Hicks and Newt dying was the best thing that Alien3 did which I never understood. I just say that because it makes people mad. lol But I do think it was a positive because it made for a really great deeply nihilistic film, which is perfect somedays when you're feelin real lovely lmao.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:24
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Alien 3 is kind of about theodicy only its take on God seems to be “he doesn’t exist and we’ll all die trying to do the right thing but you gotta try anyway.” Or maybe it’s the xenos who are coded as God and Ripley crucifies herself to destroy Jesus.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:56
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The xenos are the tools of an uncaring god, but Ripley forces herself into the Jesus role by means of self-crucifixion. The universe acquiesces and she is allowed to resurrect (takes a little bit more than 3 days tho).
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Jun 23, 2020 22:14
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It's ironic because one of the rejected Alien 3 scripts was some kind of religious allegory about monks living inside a wooden moon
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Jun 23, 2020 22:40
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CelticPredator posted:I just say that because it makes people mad. lol You know, I think you made me realize one of the reasons I don't like it that much, there's no point in the film where you feel good, there's no relief since Ripley dies at the end instead of escaping a nightmare for the third time in a row so you don't get that "She made it" moment. It really is dreary and a total downer.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:36
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TOOT BOOT posted:It's ironic because one of the rejected Alien 3 scripts was some kind of religious allegory about monks living inside a wooden moon Yeah a lot of the religious stuff in the movie is leftover from that like the monastic simple farming life/etc. It all got changed around for them being prisoners but it's definitely there. But IIRC the wooden planet one ended with I guess what would have been the equivalent of the Clemens character living to the end but sacrificing himself to save Ripley/kill the last alien. Newt's death was meaner too as it involved her getting facehugged and then the alien busting out of her early because she was a kid/died from the process and going into Ripley. that was originally meaner with it growing in Newt but then leaving too early and going into Ripley. And at the end it was removed from her (I think it just ledves through her mouth?) and gets into that character, who immolates himself to kill it.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:38
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They should get a bunch of different filmmakers to all make new Alien 3 movies, release them all, but have all or none of them be canon.
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Jun 24, 2020 03:01
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sigher posted:You know, I think you made me realize one of the reasons I don't like it that much, there's no point in the film where you feel good, there's no relief since Ripley dies at the end instead of escaping a nightmare for the third time in a row so you don't get that "She made it" moment. It really is dreary and a total downer. It is, but I dunno. Sometimes I enjoy a good bleak flick. I do think it’s happy, in a way. Ripley doesn’t suffer any more, and she ride the universe of the alien on her terms. I think it’s kind of a beautiful downer ending, and the music really helps. One of my favorite pieces of all time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_4nAJsUYe0
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Jun 24, 2020 03:07
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alf_pogs posted:strong agree, it's cosmic horror. if you're a human you either die or go insane. not great news see, i kind of don't like this take. an uncaring universe, as the first four movies present, is not the same thing as a hateful universe, as Prometheus and Covenant present. in the "original" Alien movies, sure, the xenomorphs are horrifying, can easily demolish someone in a straight fight, and will probably kill you if you're not very prepared for them. but you can be prepared for them, and if you know what you're getting into and how to fight them, or if you're drat good at learning that stuff on the fly, you'll probably make it out. the universe doesn't contort itself to gently caress Ripley over, or present her with an insurmountable foe; it simply puts her in a very difficult situation, that she is able to rise to. in the late Scott movies, the universe almost feels like it's actively contorting itself to give humanity the middle finger at every turn. it's not presenting its characters with a difficult, but surmountable, situation; it's presenting them with their own deaths, plain and simple, and the only variable is what hosed up way they're going to die in. i don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, and i like the Scott movies, but it's not the same tone as the other Alien movies, and frankly i don't want it to be. they're good as separate-but-related things.
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Jun 24, 2020 03:57
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like, compare what happens to Shaw to what happens to Ripley after the first Alien, and you'll probably notice what I'm talking about. Shaw actually does rise to the situation and make it out alive... and it just gets her vivisected by David, because the universe hates humanity. she doesn't get to keep going. she doesn't get to actually survive. all that's left of her in the next movie is a broken recording of her singing Country Roads and a bunch of scattered parts. that's a drat good gut punch in and of itself, but it also brings the tonal change into sharp relief. the late Scott movies are distinctly nihilistic in a way that the franchise, even at its darkest, never was before, and I think anyone expecting that out of non-Scott Alien stuff needs to seriously recalibrate their expectations.
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Jun 24, 2020 04:00
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:in the late Scott movies, the universe almost feels like it's actively contorting itself to give humanity the middle finger at every turn. it's not presenting its characters with a difficult, but surmountable, situation; it's presenting them with their own deaths, plain and simple, and the only variable is what hosed up way they're going to die in. What are some examples of this? Seems to me the characters keep putting themselves in harm's way.
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Jun 24, 2020 04:01
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Lord Krangdar posted:What are some examples of this? Seems to me the characters keep putting themselves in harm's way. first off, I feel like a lot of why it comes off as that is because we know the dangers and are relatively detached from the situation, whereas they have no loving clue what they're getting into and, by the time they do, are generally having to think fast (which doesn't generally equate to thinking smart). the characters in the late Scott movies behave fairly realistically, and it turns out that real people tend to make dumb fuckups pretty often, especially when they're having to think on their feet in unfamiliar situations. but past that, the whole plot of Prometheus is more or less an example: Weyland devotes huge amounts of time and effort to trying to find "humanity's forefathers" and wakes up an Engineer... and it just snaps his neck and starts rampaging, because it turns out humanity's creators hate us for existing and actively want to kill us. that's not even subtextual, it's a very explicit thing in the movie. there's also, as I mentioned, how Shaw turns out. there's nearly the entire cast in Covenant, who get deliberately lulled into a false sense of security by David so that he can slaughter them in horrifying ways (and he even lets Daniels think she can survive, only so he can experiment on her the same way as Shaw).
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Jun 24, 2020 04:08
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If you view David as the protagonist like I do, both Scott sequels are very uplifting.
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Jun 24, 2020 04:12
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as someone said before, it seems unfair to criticise people in Alien movies for the way they behave when you look at how a lot of folks are handling coronavirus
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Jun 24, 2020 04:27
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:first off, I feel like a lot of why it comes off as that is because we know the dangers and are relatively detached from the situation, whereas they have no loving clue what they're getting into and, by the time they do, are generally having to think fast (which doesn't generally equate to thinking smart). the characters in the late Scott movies behave fairly realistically, and it turns out that real people tend to make dumb fuckups pretty often, especially when they're having to think on their feet in unfamiliar situations. It seems like the first part of that is the answer to the second. The characters behave pretty realistically, and make huge mistakes like real people do (even smart people). And their biggest mistake is assuming that a member of their creator race gives a poo poo about them or what they want. As David points out, the Engineers aren't necessarily going to treat humans any better than humans treat him. So when that expectation comes crashing down spectacularly, its not really the universe contorting itself against them. Its just the inevitable conclusion of their own chosen course, that they all failed to see coming. Its less of a mean or nihilistic concept, and more of a cautionary tale.
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Jun 24, 2020 06:38
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:see, i kind of don't like this take. an uncaring universe, as the first four movies present, is not the same thing as a hateful universe, as Prometheus and Covenant present.
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Jun 24, 2020 08:01
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alf_pogs posted:as someone said before, it seems unfair to criticise people in Alien movies for the way they behave when you look at how a lot of folks are handling coronavirus Yes but most of the population is quite dumb. In Covenant and Prometheus the only one capable of making any good decisions are Shaw and David, everyone else is just dumb. At least in the Alien films you have people who are in over their heads but try logical solutions to deal with the bullshit they're dealing with to the best of their capabilities but it doesn't matter because the bullshit at hand is way beyond anyone's control since they're truckers, grunts (No offense) or prisoners. In the prequels you've got the brightest minds together all doing really dumb things just for the sake of them getting killed on camera.
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Jun 24, 2020 08:04
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I can believe that a lower-class person like a trucker can be undeserving of life, but you’re telling me that a millionaire president and his entire staff would be disastrously incompetent? Well that’s just a bridge too far!
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Jun 24, 2020 09:35
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When the protagonist is a villain their winning isn't uplifting (this isn't a judgment on the quality of the films). The ending of Hereditary is treated as triumphant but that magnifies the horror.
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Jun 24, 2020 14:11
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I can't help but giggle everytime someone complains about the "dumb" Prometheus crew
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Jun 24, 2020 16:52
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Something I realized too, is that the series is saying blue collar people, who have to make more hands-on decisions, are better at decision making than white collar people, who don't. Alien had it all covered via Ripley nope-ing letting them onboard and it literally took the Company to override it. Shaw is the exception, but she was also trying super hard to prove herself and overachieved constantly in life probably. Idris Elba's crew was cool, though.
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Jun 25, 2020 00:07
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If anybody cares given the current mess regarding Lowtax and more domestic abuse:Jon Joe posted:
Kaedric posted:https://breadnroses.net/ WampaLord posted:Anyone who wants an invite, just go to https://breadnroses.net/ and register, I will approve, let me know the username you select if it is different. BreadnRoses already has a lot of people who've moved over, seems rad and actually has good QOL features SA doesn't have (dark mode is freakin' nice). If you want to register they're letting everyone in for free while GBS burns and the entire admin/mod team is in some kind of standoff with Lowtax for apparently beating a third woman so yeah. Posting this here because I freakin' love this thread and don't want the community to die. BnR seems cool and is being flooded right now but seems promising, kinda like when NeoGAF imploded and everyone went to ResetERA.
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Jun 25, 2020 00:35
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Please, please, please! Donate! To RAINN!
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SUNKOS posted:If you want to register they're letting everyone in for free while GBS burns and the entire admin/mod team is in some kind of standoff with Lowtax for apparently beating a third woman so yeah. Where is this information? I can't see it on the site.
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Jun 25, 2020 01:00
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There's a stickied thread at the top of this and every forum. Also a huge thread in GBS that's moving faster than anyone can keep up with. What's important is the victim is now safe with friends however.
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Jun 25, 2020 01:16
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SUNKOS posted:BreadnRoses already has a lot of people who've moved over, seems rad and actually has good QOL features SA doesn't have (dark mode is freakin' nice). If you want to register they're letting everyone in for free while GBS burns and the entire admin/mod team is in some kind of standoff with Lowtax for apparently beating a third woman so yeah. Registration still requires an invite code to submit on my end.
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Jun 25, 2020 01:35
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Weird. I don't know what could cause that. I registered without one and it took me to the next page to complete registration. I closed it and sent the PM to WampaLord saying my username was different to my SA name and I was approved after a while. Maybe shoot him a PM?
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Jun 25, 2020 01:43
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Bread+Roses is a really stupid name for a forum. Also you can't even browse it without signing up?
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Jun 25, 2020 02:02
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