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It makes sense to me  Getting a program working is satisfying. Sitting in a cube poo poo posting on the internet during down time is not satisfying. Sitting in meetings isn't satisfying. Debugging isn't satisfying. Learning new frameworks if you change jobs, or feeling pressured to learn the latest and greatest JS library... Everything surrounding actually writing back end code blows, IMO. I suppose it's probably just general depression, because I'm fairly confident no other industry would be any better for my happiness. Like I don't HATE my job, I don't wake up with some sense of dread, but if money were no object I'd never write a line of code ever again. I have about 8 years of experience across 4 different jobs and I've pretty much felt this way since Day 1. Edit: Oh yea, and especially gently caress anyone who asks a candidate to do a take home test. No I'm not going to waste my entire weekend to prove to you that I can actually write code. Feel free to ask me questions or whiteboard some psuedo code in the interview, but otherwise... Sab669 fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Jun 24, 2020 19:47
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How's your pay? Money makes everything better ime
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Jun 24, 2020 19:53
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I can't answer for Doghouse, obviously, but I think mine is fair for my region. I make double the median income, although I suspect most of you in this thread would insist I'm still underpaid - but I don't seem to be competent enough to get anything better  I did just start a new job this January which was about a 30% pay raise. Yes more money is nice, but my old coworkers were much better and there's virtually no specifications at the new job. Like I have a meeting this Friday for us to define what "Business Intelligence" even means while we come up with features to add to the software. Barf. Sab669 fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jun 24, 2020 |
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Jun 24, 2020 20:07
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rt4 posted:How's your pay? Money makes everything better ime Good point. It's not great. Though I live in the midwest so it's probably decent given the market.
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Jun 24, 2020 20:08
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I'm quitting a soul-sucking job for one that pays about 50% less but offers more interesting work. I'm moving as well, so that takes some of the edge off, but it's still a big cut. It's going to be worth it.
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Jun 24, 2020 20:33
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Doghouse posted:Good point. It's not great. Though I live in the midwest so it's probably decent given the market. You don't live in the midwest, you live in the US where there are lots of decent looking companies hiring for remote work. Best career move I've made is continuing to live in my cheap/decent southern city with terrible programmer wages and going fully remote. It's a great feeling to be rejected by the yokels, then compete for jobs on an international scale and get a much better offer.
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Jun 24, 2020 21:15
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Trying to find a remote job for the last month since I've been forced back into the office, but practically every job is listed as Remote and then in the description it says "Temporary due to COVID-19"
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Jun 24, 2020 21:18
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I have a love-hate relationship with my developer job, and developer jobs in general. I've had a whole range of experiences and there's a lot of the same poo poo in different flavors across companies and projects. Obviously some are going to be far more functional and less toxic than others, that's a separate issue. I wouldn't call it burnout, but more just numb from the BS and grind of it all. Except it's way better BS and grind than most jobs out there. Dev jobs are cushy af. I like the feeling of accomplishment of problem solving. I like having a fair degree of flexibility and autonomy to tackle my work. I like getting paid a gently caress ton of money. I like being able to effectively work remotely. I don't like product direction changing all the time. I don't like dealing with 10+ year old legacy code. I don't like solving the same stupid problems over and over again because there's no budget or appetite to tackle systemic challenges at the expense of some product-driven deadline. I honestly don't know what I could realistically see myself doing outside of software development right now. I could see eventually giving up the big tech bucks to work at a smaller company again some day, but at that point I'd be half-retired and maybe I'd just say gently caress it altogether rather than deal with small company BS again. rt4 posted:How's your pay? Money makes everything better ime The golden handcuffs are real, especially when stock is doing well
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Jun 24, 2020 21:41
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rt4 posted:You don't live in the midwest, you live in the US where there are lots of decent looking companies hiring for remote work. Best career move I've made is continuing to live in my cheap/decent southern city with terrible programmer wages and going fully remote. Yeah I applied to a few places (Twitter, Salesforce, Coinbase) with no luck yet
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Jun 24, 2020 23:15
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Guinness posted:I have a love-hate relationship with my developer job, and developer jobs in general. 
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Jun 24, 2020 23:20
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I might be one of the few that has really enjoyed dev work, and that hasn't faded. I'll play with code as a way of relaxing when I'm solo and I feel energized after finding my way into "the zone". I've also, so far, enjoyed management work. I do need to stay more in touch with the codebase, but it comes and goes in waves. I find I am more drained after a day of meetings than I am after a day of coding, but not much more. Guinness posted:The golden handcuffs are real, especially when stock is doing well I was pleasantly surprised that my corporate overlords have options that vest partially yearly. I'm OK with a Golden handcuff when structured like that. Acts as a ticking time bomb of a bonus and makes it really easy to calculate what it would cost to make me move jobs (if I decide I'm tired of it).
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Jun 25, 2020 15:20
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dantheman650 posted:Yes, we do. But today’s conversation is specifically about goals. We usually slightly touch on it but it’s the only topic for today and I don’t have many besides “keep doing what I’m doing and getting better at it” How fast? What's your plan to get there? Who's there in your corner to hold you accountable when you start slouching on your fitness plan and skipping leg day? How do they know when you need help? What's the best way for them to help when you need it? What habits are holding you back?
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Jun 26, 2020 02:27
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Sab669 posted:It makes sense to me Sab669 posted:Getting a program working is satisfying ... Debugging isn't satisfying.
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Jun 26, 2020 02:30
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Jun 26, 2020 03:36
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Has anyone moved sideways into ML from application development? I have the opportunity to learn on the work dime. I can't tell if it's a move into being an analyst or a skill I can use to progress my SWE prospects.
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Jun 26, 2020 10:12
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SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE posted:Has anyone moved sideways into ML from application development? I have the opportunity to learn on the work dime. I can't tell if it's a move into being an analyst or a skill I can use to progress my SWE prospects. Is there any downside? If you hate it, just go back to application development. Learning new skills is almost never wasted, worst case scenario you learn it's not for you. I would learn any new skill on my employer's dime.
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Jun 26, 2020 13:00
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vonnegutt posted:Is there any downside? If you hate it, just go back to application development. Learning new skills is almost never wasted, worst case scenario you learn it's not for you. I would learn any new skill on my employer's dime. I've heard it's difficult to move back to development if you spend time working in ops and was wondering if it's similar. Otherwise, hell yeah new skills!
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Jun 26, 2020 13:41
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Vulture Culture posted:Have you talked to someone about anxiety? If it's all you've ever known, you wouldn't be able to tell it apart from normal. I do see a counselor for depression, and I mean I'm definitely way more happy than I've ever been - but no I don't think I'll ever "love" my job. It's what I do to pay my exorbitant student loans and have a few hobbies and that's it. Quiting the industry sounds tempting when I'm free of my loans and can afford to work in an industry that pays less, but I don't even know what else I could do so I'll probably just stick with it forever. I enjoy having my code to run and having it do what is supposed to do so that I can stop working on it / move on to something else, but no I don't enjoy scouring Google for relevant SO posts, stepping through break points trying to figure out where things are going wrong, or reading documentation 🤷♂️ E: Maybe if I worked in a field that actually interested me I'd warm up to it, but so far I've done banking, medical, manufacturing, and small winforms stuff for random local businesses and I just don't care. I like cars, but there's very little crossover and the jobs that do exist either simply aren't in an area I'm willing to live or I lack the skills to do it. I also like gaming but game dev is a colossal crap shoot from everything I've ever read. Sab669 fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Jun 26, 2020 |
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Jun 26, 2020 14:38
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i feel the same thing due to working ~enterprise grade~ back-ends vs. front-end, which is what i actually like. this is just so... robotic. make a new CRUD endpoint. add a column to this table. write tests. repeat.
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Jun 26, 2020 15:23
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kayakyakr posted:Seems like you've gotta get lucky with a senior manager structure that wants to mentor you into the position. In my case, I've got 2... It's not been a terrible move so far and I feel like I'm helping the team often by removing road blocks and sitting in meetings that not everyone needs to be in. We'll see how I feel in another 6 months. This is key If you don't have a mentor, you're going to end up as a glorified team lead/cat herder Once you achieve cat herder status, you're there until you burn out or get fired for incompetence At least with a mentor you have the opportunity to get promoted to senior cat herder, or a more executive style role, someday. Without that you're just trapped between middle management and the people who were previously your peers. Cat herder managers are also typically the managers who get canned first during downsizing.
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Jun 27, 2020 11:24
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Oh gently caress I work in marketing now instead of development. I'm apparently one of the only people on earth who understands what our product does and why someone would buy it - this is the danger of working for the same company for too many years in a row.
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Jul 1, 2020 21:01
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Oh gently caress I work in marketing now instead of development. I'm apparently one of the only people on earth who understands what our product does and why someone would buy it - this is the danger of working for the same company for too many years in a row. 
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Jul 1, 2020 21:31
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:Oh gently caress I work in marketing now instead of development. I'm apparently one of the only people on earth who understands what our product does and why someone would buy it - this is the danger of working for the same company for too many years in a row. glhf
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Jul 2, 2020 15:35
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marketing isn't so bad. they have a budget, at least.
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Jul 2, 2020 15:35
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uncurable mlady posted:marketing isn't so bad. they have a budget, at least. I've heard that marketing depts have been bloodbaths during the pandemic.
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Jul 2, 2020 15:52
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So I applied for a job recently but got back that they had just filled the position. Then like a week after I got a message where they said someone had quit and asked if I was still interested, I said yes and we scheduled a phone interview a couple of days later. But, I never got any call and I got no reply to my text where I asked what was up. When I checked their career page the job was just gone and replaced with another one (that wouldn't fit me since it was more of a management position), so I assume there had been some kind of mistake but it's still incredibly lovely to just ghost me when we had a call scheduled and everything. Anyway, that's actually a place I want to work at but now it would feel really weird to apply again in the future ..
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Jul 2, 2020 19:28
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netcat posted:So I applied for a job recently but got back that they had just filled the position. Then like a week after I got a message where they said someone had quit and asked if I was still interested, I said yes and we scheduled a phone interview a couple of days later. But, I never got any call and I got no reply to my text where I asked what was up. When I checked their career page the job was just gone and replaced with another one (that wouldn't fit me since it was more of a management position), so I assume there had been some kind of mistake but it's still incredibly lovely to just ghost me when we had a call scheduled and everything.
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Jul 3, 2020 14:26
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kayakyakr posted:I've heard that marketing depts have been bloodbaths during the pandemic. it's not great, no. field marketing has been a bloodbath but product marketing/devrel/developer marketing is pretty ok right now.
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Jul 3, 2020 15:09
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Vulture Culture posted:Escalate this to the recruiting manager, this happens everywhere and people are regularly taken to task for it if the issue is actually raised Yeah I was thinking of contacting someone about it (mostly to see if I could get some info) but wasn't sure who. Also it's vacation times now so it's unlikely to get a response.
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Jul 3, 2020 18:15
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Vulture Culture posted:Escalate this to the recruiting manager, this happens everywhere and people are regularly taken to task for it if the issue is actually raised I probably agree with that. As a hiring manger that's been non-stop recruiting for over a year I would want to know where we hosed up and soured someone on a company. Even if we wouldn't hire them, we still want to give a good impression so that they recommend / don't bad mouth us to their friends. However, I can also see a non-trivial amount of toxic places that would treat that as a personal affront to be called on.
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Jul 3, 2020 18:22
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Hughlander posted:However, I can also see a non-trivial amount of toxic places that would treat that as a personal affront to be called on.
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Jul 3, 2020 18:24
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Vulture Culture posted:I realize this is speaking from a place of seniority and privilege, but I'm usually grateful when bad companies show their true colors early enough that nothing is lost by walking away. Agreed, but also find a recruiter that's been around for more than 24 months.
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Jul 3, 2020 19:50
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lol n/m about me fretting over senior sde vs sde 2 - there's more important poo poo
Coffee Jones fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jul 4, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 22:12
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Is it unreasonable to ask for the new company to give you a cash bonus on top of your starting bonus, that's equivalent to what it would cost to buy out your vested shares at the old company? Old company is a dead ringer for going IPO and/or getting acquired, looks like my strike price is 1/6 of the current value based on our latest funding round. I did the math and I think even after taxes I could pay off 5% of my mortgage with what I have vested so far. edit: my ability to buy out the shares expires after X days, where X < 365, and time to IPO > X There's some complex calculus involving staying at the current company & letting more share vest vs new job/salary etc, but let's ignore that for a moment. Hadlock fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 00:23
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You'd generally ask them to pay for what you're leaving on the table. If you take that money and buy some of the shares so that you leave less on the table than expected, that's fine, but that's not the rationale you give. It's not their business how you invest, but it is their business to make sure that starting a job with them won't cost you money.
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Jul 17, 2020 01:59
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Exercising your options shouldn't change their value, but instead changes your risk. You can ask for money to cover that, but I don't think the argument is very compelling.
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Jul 17, 2020 04:33
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asur posted:Exercising your options shouldn't change their value, but instead changes your risk. You can ask for money to cover that, but I don't think the argument is very compelling. It does change their value relative to the alternative, if the alternative is not exercising them and letting the window expire because you no longer work at the company. Which it is.
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Jul 17, 2020 04:40
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Steve French posted:It does change their value relative to the alternative, if the alternative is not exercising them and letting the window expire because you no longer work at the company. Which it is. The alternative if you think the company is valuable is to exercise them. You can try adding this as a factor to increase the signon bonus, but in my experience companies are willing to jack up signon bonuses for very little reason until you hit a certain amount after which it is way harder to get them to increase it. You might as well ask for it as you don't really have any downside.
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Jul 17, 2020 04:55
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Hadlock posted:Is it unreasonable to ask for the new company to give you a cash bonus on top of your starting bonus, that's equivalent to what it would cost to buy out your vested shares at the old company? Are you able to do a net exercise? This is basically using some of the stocks to buy the rest of them at strike price, so you end up with fewer stocks but don’t have to front any cash (other than for taxes, maybe). I did this when I left my previous company (which I didn’t part with on the best of terms) and got a nice hit of schadenfreude when it turned out that they didn’t realize there was a net exercise provision in their legal boilerplate and I blindsided them (I think they thought I’d walk away rather than front the cash) and they had to scramble to get their poo poo together. And now they have to send me financial statements. To answer your actual question, I can’t imagine a downside to just asking.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:25
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asur posted:The alternative if you think the company is valuable is to exercise them. You said "Exercising your options shouldn't change their value", and I pointed out that in context, where one is leaving your job for another job, exercising options from the prior job _does_ change their value relative to the alternative, which is losing them entirely. To which you said the alternative to exercising them is exercising them? I don't think we're on the same page here. The other alternative is keeping your existing job and not taking the new one, which is the scenario where one doesn't lose the options by not exercising them, and instead gets to keep them, perhaps until they are liquid. So that (perhaps best?!?!) alternative provides some actual leverage behind the request for the bonus to pay for exercising them as part of the job offer. It's not unreasonable or unfounded to make that request. I'd of course not be at all surprised if the request is denied, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it weren't.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:48
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