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Leperflesh posted:I'm gonna regret this I mean both can be true. It still was a huge bloody waste of time to shut everything down, impress upon everyone the importance of having your life ruined and upended to save these lives and then faff about having discussions like "Masks, Do They Work?" without taking any action at all and letting chaos reign unchecked while setting up no infrastructure to deal with the situation. The time was wasted. It was a fuckin' waste of time. Cool some people got saved, but given what we did with the time that was thoroughly wasted it probably didn't help them much in the short-term long run.
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Jun 27, 2020 03:07
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I think there's a subtle but important difference between "we wasted a lot of the time the shutdown gave us" and "shutting down was a waste of time" the former is a factual assessment of government and social failure the latter is a denial of all the lives the shutdown saved
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Jun 27, 2020 03:14
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Leperflesh posted:I'm gonna regret this Nobody is arguing we should have done nothing. They're arguing that celebrating what we did do is dumb when there are tons of other countries with far less resources than us who proved we could have done much, much better but failed to do so because we've collectively rotted into a cultural hellscape. Yes, we saved lives. We could have also provably saved a shitload more lives but chose not too because muh freedumbs and make number go higher. If you want to focus on the silver lining then that's fine - I understand we gotta cling to whatever loving good news we can these days - but excuse us if most here aren't willing to give ourselves a pat on the back.
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Jun 27, 2020 03:14
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The lockdown could have been handled far better. It also likely saved thousands of lives. These aren’t mutually contradictory statements at all and I’m not sure why you’re jumping down his throat for pointing out the later.
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Jun 27, 2020 03:14
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Leperflesh posted:I'm gonna regret this They are going to die anyway. I hope this helps.
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Jun 27, 2020 03:15
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* saved, for now
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Jun 27, 2020 03:15
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Still Dismal posted:The lockdown could have been handled far better. It also likely saved thousands of lives. These aren’t mutually contradictory statements at all and I’m not sure why you’re jumping down his throat for pointing out the later. Yeah I'm a little baffled. Leperflesh isn't celebrating, isn't patting any backs, and has explicitly said they're not declaring victory. Yall are being weird.
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Jun 27, 2020 03:20
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He didn’t make enough of the requisite declarations of despair before positing that maybe a possibly somewhat positive thing had happened.
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Jun 27, 2020 03:34
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Still Dismal posted:He didn’t make enough of the requisite declarations of despair before positing that maybe a possibly somewhat positive thing had happened. Strong username/post combo energy.
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Jun 27, 2020 03:43
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acksplode posted:Yeah I'm a little baffled. Leperflesh isn't celebrating, isn't patting any backs, and has explicitly said they're not declaring victory. Yall are being weird.
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Jun 27, 2020 04:06
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Lest we forget folks, This is what started our police revamp.
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Jun 27, 2020 04:10
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acksplode posted:Yeah I'm a little baffled. Leperflesh isn't celebrating, isn't patting any backs, and has explicitly said they're not declaring victory. Yall are being weird. Not speaking for anyone else, but I took issue with framing a simple pausing of the virus growth rate for two months as any sort of achievement when so much was sacrificed and so much more could have been done. Hooray, we accomplished the absolute bare minimum lockdown could have achieved while making life immeasurably worse for millions of Americans! Almost every other country took the opportunity their lockdown provided to actually implement measures to halt the progress of the virus. We did not. Since it's become pretty clear that Americans will not submit to a second lockdown, that means we wasted our only chance to implement any of the procedures that, in conjunction with a lockdown, could have prevent its further spread. Cases will surge, hospitals will be overwhelmed regardless, and there won't be a mulligan to get it right next time. Every action has an opportunity cost. By choosing to do the lockdown in the most half-assed way possible, we lost the chance to do something that would have saved far more lives.
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Jun 27, 2020 04:35
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all those lives saved, that when our CA hospitals are overrun in 10 to 16 weeks, will end up dead anyway we didn't save poo poo. we delayed poo poo
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Jun 27, 2020 04:38
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If you eat meat stock the gently caress up if you're not a murderer stock up on beans and lentils.
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Jun 27, 2020 04:46
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:And every time I’m in a call, I get kids coming in every 14 seconds asking for screen time, whining that they can't hang out with friends even though all of their friends are getting together, or arguing that it’s not their turn to do the dishwasher. idk but what are they doing on the screens? are they socializing? if so, why not just let them do it? we're all sitting here on a goddamn internet forum, and while the onlineness of people in LAN thread varies, we're all at least somewhat online people. personally i grew up online before ****screens**** were really a parenting concern, because my meat world social life was poo poo and i found a lot more comfort in online communities, for better or for worse--some were good and some were bad, but ultimately i feel i came out alright, probably much better than i would have /without/ being really online that whole time. my parents didn't really know what to make of it beyond me staying up all night, but they were too tech-illiterate to stop me really (mom took away the keyboard, but not the mouse for whatever reason, so i used on-screen keyboards a bunch--poo poo, but you deal). coming out of that, as an adult now, im growing on the idea that online socialization is still socialization--it's different, sure, but it's still socialization, and we're a bunch of hypocrites posting here if we say otherwise. people probably should mix online and offline socialization, but given the current state of affairs, allowing more online socialization may not be so bad a thing. if they're just watching youtube or playing games alone sure, that's not great, but if they're talking with people that's probably for the better, and it's not going to destroy their humanity--honestly, it probably helps them develop it: the online world is probably here to stay, and kids should figure out for themselves how to navigate it somewhat, especially if they like it don't let them wild on everything of course--the internet is at once both glorious and a cesspool, but if you talk with the kids about who they meet and it doesn't seem like they're falling down the alt-right or whatever other rabbit hole, it's probably fine.
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Jun 27, 2020 04:49
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My marker at this point is that I think we’re in for a year of huge disruptions (entire businesses being closed, everyone who can stay home doing so except when absolutely necessary, only outdoor distanced recreation), two to three years of substantial disruptions (still no mass gatherings, etc.) and about five years to a decade of lingering effects (people being reluctant to shake hands, public transit ridership not recovering fully, mask wearing still being commonplace). Some things, like the plexiglass child’s at supermarket checkouts, I expect are here to stay indefinitely. This is of course assuming no vaccine or other miracle event, like a super cheap, accurate and very fast test becoming available. This isn’t even getting into the economic effects, which I honestly think anyone making confident predictions about more than a couple years out is just doing speculation, but will be with us for a for a decade at least in one way or another. Or the knock on social effects. How many children are at a crucial period in their development right now? We’re gonna have an entire generation of kids that grow up with one form of emotional scars or another. Anyway, it’s not the end of the world. It won’t be the end of the United States either. But it is an event on par with 2008, or even the depression. I’ll be very happy if this post gets quoted and laughed at for being hyperbolic in a couple of years , the way that posts from the past sometimes do here.
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Jun 27, 2020 05:13
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I am shy and a nerd, and but for online socialization I would literally have no friends but the ones I'd met in college gulp 40 years ago. I do just fine with my online friends; we support each other, and some of them I have known 30 and more years now. (My daughter, at her college graduation, describing us to her friends. "You think I'm shy. Well, my parents are PATHOLOGICALLY shy." I can't say she's wrong.) She's a social worker now, and she says that in her graduate school, nearly all the therapists were on about The Dangers Of The Internet, while she bit her lip hard. My son became chronically ill and missed all of high school. Without his tight circle of online friends, I honestly don't think he'd have come out sane. So. I don't expect people who enjoy regular human contact to stop being that sort of person, and I do envy them. I am not that person, and I am grateful for a large number of social sites over the years, including SA, for letting me argue at a comfortable arms-length editable distance. e: I want my kids out of this country. I'm hoping my daughter gets her social work qualifications -- it takes N supervised hours as well as the degree -- before Canada et al. close the borders.
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Jun 27, 2020 05:24
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:If you eat meat stock the gently caress up lol if you haven't been buying an incredible amount of beans. i have bought beans every trip to the store for the last 6 months. i live in house of beans, each room filled with more beans than the last. water no longer flows through my pipes, just beans. my floor is beans, my couch is beans, my life is beans. no more chairs, just bean bags. no more bed, just bean. u too can see the light. watch this bean documentary and understand beans are the way, the life, the truth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYsTlfhDSDY
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Jun 27, 2020 05:28
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I have three different varieties of bean planted in the front yard. Beans, beans, forever.
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Jun 27, 2020 05:29
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TheAgent posted:we didn't save poo poo. we delayed poo poo The real kick in the nuts is that the immediate option wasn't going to be enough, that we seriously underestimated the drive for people to be able to say "I can do without visiting Nana because..." or to indulge in things like shopping/movies/bars, and just honestly had no counter to this being politicized and used as another idiotic Culture War battleground. What we were able to do, which is scale up our testing infrastructure, is useful but won't be worth much if we can't get contact tracing to take advantage of it.we WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:If you eat meat stock the gently caress up Class Warcraft posted:Almost every other country took the opportunity their lockdown provided to actually implement measures to halt the progress of the virus. We did not. FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Jun 27, 2020 |
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Jun 27, 2020 05:31
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:didn't the federal government suspend passport office operations in like march They're slowly resuming operations again. Of course, that's not gonna matter when the US Passport won't be worth the paper it's printed on.
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Jun 27, 2020 05:44
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FilthyImp posted:
There will definitely be a lot of books dissecting the failures on every level that led to this catastrophe.
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Jun 27, 2020 05:45
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We can't implement a policy that could be considered socialist. You're a free man in America, and that means free from the imposition of sensible government policy that trades some of your freedoms, temporarily, for the betterment of all. Back to work!
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Jun 27, 2020 05:50
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:If you eat meat stock the gently caress up Whoa nelly have the processing plants been hosed and if anyone thinks that producers are going to take the risk that they’ll have to I.e. you shoulda bought your chickens by now You can also raise quail indoors fairly effectively and quail roosters sound more hilarious than obnoxious (ie like chicken roosters)
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Jun 27, 2020 05:54
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I by no means think the plague that has killed six figures worth of Americans is Actually A Good Thing, but I’m actually cautiously optimistic that it’s been a big enough shock that a lot of much needed things once thought impossible are now a lot more likely. The expanded UI actually lead to overall poverty decreasing* during the last couple of months, the dollar is still the world’s reserve currency and all of the colossal uncertainty right now geopolitically means that there’s gonna be a lot of people looking to park their money in US debt as a means of keeping it safe. Huge knock on wood of course, but it’s a conflux of possibility that’s potentially really exciting opportunities for us as a country, depending on how things shake out. *theres some debate over this, depends on how you measure poverty basically
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Jun 27, 2020 06:18
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California has expanded its hospital bed and ventilator capacity during the three months this shutdown has bought us. That will mean fewer deaths both from covid-19, and from people with other diseases that need treatment at the same time. That, all by itself, is something positive that the shutdown got us, and which will ultimately reduce the total deaths compared to if we had never had any kind of shutdown. We are also three months closer to a vaccine or effective treatment. I know both of those things are still a long way off, but they're not eternally far off. Every month we limp along not having a complete collapse of the health care network is a month closer to the point where covid-19 stops being a global pandemic. I know that's scant solace to all the people who have already had someone they know or love die of a completely preventable disease, but it's also not literally nothing. A ton of businesses have also had this opportunity to discover that, well, actually, you can totally let your tech workers work from home 100% and they still get their jobs done, more or less. I know a lot of people who are now permanently working from home, regardless of whether or how or when their companies are allowed to return to normal business. I believe that will result in overall lower rates of transmission, because in-office transmission was identified early on as one of the key ways that a single infectious person caused major localized outbreaks. A lot of the businesses that are re-opening, are doing so with much improved protocols in place, which will also reduce overall transmission rates. The only way we actually beat the virus is to get the rate of transmission to sustained below-1-per-infectious-people levels, or, we get an effective vaccine and administer it to a large majority of people. A bunch of normal safety procedures that are done for phase II and especially phase III trials for potential treatments and vaccines are going to be waived, and that means that the first stuff that comes out might be risky, or even deadly. I'm not expecting some kind of perfect, safe, highly effective treatment or vaccine to be here in 2020. But so many resources have been thrown at it (and let's face it, the profit potential is so stupendous) that I'm quite confident that something will be here in 2021. just look at this list: over 2100 studies related to covid-19 being tracked. Our three months of lockdown weren't a total waste of time.
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Jun 27, 2020 06:47
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:I feel this loving post deep in my bones. Is the 14 year olds school work being done through some special software or mainly through google docs?
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Jun 27, 2020 07:28
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Still Dismal posted:The expanded UI actually lead to overall poverty decreasing* during the last couple of months, What's your source for this? You do say this still isn't certain, but you got this info from somewhere.
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Jun 27, 2020 07:28
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Leperflesh posted:
No one is saying that the lockdown didn't save lives. We are saying it did not save as many lives as it should have and came at enormous cost. Lets use the trolley problem as an example. If we had three courses of action: no lockdown, half-assed lockdown, and actually effective lockdown European-style, we chose the half-assed lockdown. Please acknowledge that opportunity costs exist, I feel like you keep skipping over that. By choosing to implement a half-assed lockdown they did save some American lives, but they are simultaneously responsible for the deaths of those that could have been prevented if they had more political courage. 
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Jun 27, 2020 07:29
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Class Warcraft posted:No one is saying that the lockdown didn't save lives. We are saying it did not save as many lives as it should have and came at enormous cost. Lets use the trolley problem as an example. If we had three courses of action: no lockdown, half-assed lockdown, and actually effective lockdown European-style, we chose the half-assed lockdown. Please acknowledge that opportunity costs exist, I feel like you keep skipping over that. By choosing to implement a half-assed lockdown they did save some American lives, but they are simultaneously responsible for the deaths of those that could have been prevented if they had more political courage. half-assed lockdown and no lockdown are actually just a loop and we keep putting more people on the tracks as the trolly goes by
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Jun 27, 2020 07:33
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Wicked Them Beats posted:But without cops in the schools who will The fact that people still think like this is a demonstration of exactly why prison and police abolition are such useful concepts. Public schools are threatened with permanent closures, they're already underfunded and overburdened, and ultimately students aren't getting the material support and resources they need for their mental health and academic success. Unsurprisingly with this minimal support at school and minimal future prospects, some kids turn to violence and crime. And some parents, instead of seeing this as a sign of a broken system that needs to be fixed, see this as a prime opportunity to punish and harm little kids with police supposedly to keep the other kids safe. Ironically, when poo poo does hit the fan what we find out is that these cops won't do poo poo to stop a shooting for example the Parkland shooting. Maybe, just maybe if these kids got the support they needed we wouldn't have to worry about these school shooters in the first place. These cops serve no purpose other than to create an illusion of safety and suppress kids that are already down. That money can be better served providing actual material help to children. We don't loving need these cops. E: fixing the wall of text America Inc. fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Jun 27, 2020 |
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Jun 27, 2020 07:56
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Class Warcraft posted:No one is saying that the lockdown didn't save lives. Cup Runneth Over posted:They are going to die anyway. I hope this helps.
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Jun 27, 2020 08:05
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Class Warcraft posted:No one is saying that the lockdown didn't save lives. We are saying it did not save as many lives as it should have and came at enormous cost. Lets use the trolley problem as an example. If we had three courses of action: no lockdown, half-assed lockdown, and actually effective lockdown European-style, we chose the half-assed lockdown. Please acknowledge that opportunity costs exist, I feel like you keep skipping over that. By choosing to implement a half-assed lockdown they did save some American lives, but they are simultaneously responsible for the deaths of those that could have been prevented if they had more political courage. He's not ignoring that, he's countering the people posting that everyone will die anyway and that the lockdowns were a waste of time. He's doing that, presumably, because the endless despair and nihilism is actively harmful to some people who are in a bad place and may read their lovely, toxic hot takes and engage in self-harm or harm others.
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Jun 27, 2020 08:08
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e: yes, the over the top despair posting and one upmanship to see who can be the most cynical & nihilistic is tiresome.adoration for none posted:What's your source for this? You do say this still isn't certain, but you got this info from somewhere. This article has a good overview of the broader debate. This twitter thread gets a little bit into some of the ways in which there are debates about the accuracy of those measurements though:https://twitter.com/pamela_herd/status/1274843895839494147. Basically, this poo poo is hard to measure during the best of times, and this ain't that. But if the data is accurate, it's pretty encouraging, because it's a pretty big point in the "just loving give money to people to solve poverty" column, and that's not complex to do! It's not easy politically, but it's not complicated. Here's another paper looking at it. Maybe I should make a social policy thread, for discussing specifics of welfare state stuff. Fill Baptismal fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jun 27, 2020 |
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Jun 27, 2020 08:35
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Still Dismal posted:it's a pretty big point in the "just loving give money to people to solve poverty" column, and that's not complex to do! It's not easy politically, but it's not complicated.
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Jun 27, 2020 10:32
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They don't have a choice though! The alternative, if the expanded UI runs out at the end of next month, is unrest that makes the george floyd protests look like a loving picnic. Unemployment is astronomical, and if the "superdole" stops you're gonna see, to put it very mildly, some real poo poo. This is kinda what I mean by a time of extraordinary possibility. 2020 is a year of chaos so who knows, but I would be extremely surprised if we don't see another round of expanded UI at least.
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Jun 27, 2020 10:45
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Zachack posted:He's not ignoring that, he's countering the people posting that everyone will die anyway and that the lockdowns were a waste of time. He's doing that, presumably, because the endless despair and nihilism is actively harmful to some people who are in a bad place and may read their lovely, toxic hot takes and engage in self-harm or harm others. Thank you, yes, it's specifically this. e. I get the attraction of hyperbole but I think it's harmful. I prefer cold, naked realism, which includes acknowledging the tremendous work that's been done by for example california's health care professionals, while also acknowledging the tremendous failures of our political systems and, let's face it, our various cultural diseases.
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Jun 27, 2020 18:04
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Still Dismal posted:They don't have a choice though! The alternative, if the expanded UI runs out at the end of next month, is unrest that makes the george floyd protests look like a loving picnic. Unemployment is astronomical, and if the "superdole" stops you're gonna see, to put it very mildly, some real poo poo. This is kinda what I mean by a time of extraordinary possibility. Doubly so when the evictions start happening. What do they expect to happen when the cops took their ball and go home and nobody has the 6 months of back rent to pay anyway? And how are they going to get them to leave when there's more tenants than landlords?
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Jun 27, 2020 18:21
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https://mobile.twitter.com/TMZ/status/1276896325351530496 Alright goon CA committee. What should John Wayne Airport be renamed to? I recommend "The 405 Airport"
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Jun 27, 2020 22:57
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The Walt Disney Airport Presented by TSA
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Jun 27, 2020 23:09
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