|
Decoupling ability scores from race isn't the only problem D&D has that needs solving. The entire marketed gameplay loop - the accumulation of wealth and power through racialized violence against hoards of subhumans and the looting of their territory - is racist and colonialist. No amount of woke posturing, quick-fixes, or queer representation can change that. That being said, racial stat bonuses are also just garbage. I make dozens of 5e characters a month as part of my job and the kids who want to just be Dragonborn Wizards get done real dirty by it, plus I keep having to tiptoe around loving "race science" to explain the mechanics to 7 year olds.
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 16:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 21:35 |
|
|
The thing that really annoys me about that kind of stuff is that they'll always pull things like having dwarf wizards or half orc sorcerers that a player can't really do because of the mechanical limitations of the system, meaning that they'll always be especially unique.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 16:48
|
|
|
Your character also receives a +2 to one stat and a +1 to another. List why in the box below +2: Species: Upbringing: Career: Other: +1: Species: Upbringing: Career: Other: All set!
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 16:58
|
|
|
Ratoslov posted:I'm pretty sure the idea is that transgenderedness and genderfluidity is ultimately a weird sex thing for people with money and not a genuine expression of the self. I might be wrong, though. Yeah. It portrayed gender queerness as being a rich, decadent extravagance, which basically continues a really ugly form of homophobia wherein being queer is a sign of the effeminate softness corrupting the pure masculine spirit of real men. (Who should be purged of this taint through hard military service or the joy of hard labour, depending on exactly where your politics lie. Forcibly, if necessary, if you catch my drift.)
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 17:23
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:That's a weird way of moving the goal-posts. You asked what the difference was between races and backgrounds, I answered. You are literally responding to this, you dumb poo poo: Lemon-Lime posted:
Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Jun 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 19:32
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:Yeah. It portrayed gender queerness as being a rich, decadent extravagance, which basically continues a really ugly form of homophobia wherein being queer is a sign of the effeminate softness corrupting the pure masculine spirit of real men. (Who should be purged of this taint through hard military service or the joy of hard labour, depending on exactly where your politics lie. Forcibly, if necessary, if you catch my drift.) That's gross.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 19:48
|
|
|
Arivia posted:That's literally the point he makes in what you quoted though? It's not that it's not racist, it's that it's at least evocative and fantastic, not just the same old whispered stereotypes that D&D has. Are you deliberately taking the piss or are you just trolling, because I really can't tell at this point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 19:50
|
|
|
PST posted:Are you deliberately taking the piss or are you just trolling, because I really can't tell at this point. literally read the quote chain you responded to? no one is disagreeing that it's racialized and evocative of real world stereotyping, the discussion is whether it's more narratively interesting in Burning Wheel than in D&D.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 19:52
|
|
|
Kurieg posted:The thing that really annoys me about that kind of stuff is that they'll always pull things like having dwarf wizards or half orc sorcerers that a player can't really do because of the mechanical limitations of the system, meaning that they'll always be especially unique. Except you can be both of those things quite easily. I've done both, and I have a player that is playing a 20 INT dwarf wizard. This entire subforum has a complete and utter contempt towards the idea of playing without that precious +3 modifier at Level 1. It doesn't matter as much as any of you think it does towards the actual enjoyment of the game for a player. And that's before getting into the variants of those two races which are available, although in the half-orcs case it's a bonus to wisdom rather than charisma. While the "Tyranny of Fun" does exist in some way, you aren't strong-armed. The example above of some "poor kid" wanting to play a Dragonborn Wizard is absolutely silly. Yes, poor them. Only having a 15 while still keeping very respectable CON and DEX and one other stat they're keen on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 20:00
|
|
|
It's dumb to handicap that player with a (comparative) -1 to rolls because he had a different idea of what's cool than the designers. Arguing that -1 isn't too harsh isn't the point, it shouldn't be there at all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 20:34
|
|
|
Arthil posted:Except you can be both of those things quite easily. I've done both, and I have a player that is playing a 20 INT dwarf wizard. It's not about game balance or min-maxing, it's about the part where kids are learning bullshit race science from a role-playing game
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 20:35
|
|
|
DoctorWhat posted:It's not about game balance or min-maxing, it's about the part where kids are learning bullshit race science from a role-playing game Then don't treat it like race science, teach it to them in regards to the mechanical/math part of the game? It isn't like the creation of races is some arcane mystery, people have cracked the design for it and even made a handy excel sheet to try to give each possible feature a score of some kind: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0 Beyond tapping into imagination, RPGs are an amazing way to get kids used to doing math on the fly or even learning the math behind the game itself.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 21:01
|
|
|
Arthil posted:Then don't treat it like race science, teach it to them in regards to the mechanical/math part of the game? It isn't like the creation of races is some arcane mystery, people have cracked the design for it and even made a handy excel sheet to try to give each possible feature a score of some kind: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0 The point you're completely missing is that it's the game itself teaching bullshit race science by priming the kids playing it to associate inherent physical and mental differences with ethnic backgrounds.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 21:08
|
|
|
hey did you know it's not racism if we don't call it racism?! remove centuries of colonialist thought with this one weird trick!
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 21:12
|
|
|
Arthil posted:Then don't treat it like race science, teach it to them in regards to the mechanical/math part of the game? It isn't like the creation of races is some arcane mystery, people have cracked the design for it and even made a handy excel sheet to try to give each possible feature a score of some kind: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0 Arthil I've been using role-playing and tabletop games in educational space for over three years. It's my career. Consider that you don't need to condescend to me regarding the benefits such activities can have: I know, I've built whole afterschool and day camp programs around empowering autism-spectrum kids using tabletop. I pivot away from D&D whenever possible because it's a badly-designed game built on bad ideas.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 21:25
|
|
|
Arthil is ride or die for 5e and it’s fun seeing his weak limited arguments for it getting torn apart by people more knowledgeable about the discourse of RPGs in general.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 21:29
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 21:32
|
|
|
Racial bonuses are good because that means more informal math practice for kids. Love to see big brain takes like this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 21:35
|
|
|
Arivia posted:Arthil is ride or die for 5e and it’s fun seeing his weak limited arguments for it getting torn apart by people more knowledgeable about the discourse of RPGs in general. I actually have a lot of problems with 5th Edition and if I could actually pull the arm of all my friends to play something like, say, SotDL instead I would. Some of them are coming around to the idea of it, but for now the games I run and the games I play in are 5E. DoctorWhat posted:Arthil I've been using role-playing and tabletop games in educational space for over three years. It's my career. Consider that you don't need to condescend to me regarding the benefits such activities can have: I know, I've built whole afterschool and day camp programs around empowering autism-spectrum kids using tabletop. I'm sorry, I didn't know it was your career. I've done volunteer work in my own local community so I sought to try and give some advice relating to how I help. The kids want D&D, and the library provides all the material so I can't just show up with an entirely different system.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 21:40
|
|
|
Burning Wheel is both old tired stereotypes AND evocative. Dwarven greed and Orcish hate are just straight out of Tolkien. They are some of the oldest tiredest tropes in fantasy. But they are done really well and evocatively. The way it handles Greed and Hate mechanically as emotional attributes is great. I adapted emotional attributes to Strike! But the way it's tied to race is bad. Not all Dwarves should be greedy and not all people with the Greed attribute should be dwarves. I took that part out when I adapted it. Even in Tolkien, not all Dwarves are greedy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 22:07
|
|
|
Arthil posted:Then don't treat it like race science, teach it to them in regards to the mechanical/math part of the game? It isn't like the creation of races is some arcane mystery, people have cracked the design for it and even made a handy excel sheet to try to give each possible feature a score of some kind: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vq1kz6PRAbw5LHy6amH-bNb4OuB8DBXL1RsZROt03Sc/edit#gid=0 Have you never seen the stormfront D&D post?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 22:14
|
|
|
Mormon Star Wars posted:Have you never seen the stormfront D&D post? Wary of trying to search for that on my own, was it on the forums here somewhere?
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 22:35
|
|
|
Arthil posted:Wary of trying to search for that on my own, was it on the forums here somewhere? Short form: nazis really like D&D racial stat stuff because it gives them an easy way to verbalize and explain their theories on the natural superiorities and inferiorities of different skin colors by using “like how elves got a bonus to dex and a penalty to con, and how orcs get a bonus to str but a penalty to int” as a metaphor and wedge.
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 22:51
|
|
|
Arivia posted:literally read the quote chain you responded to? no one is disagreeing that it's racialized and evocative of real world stereotyping, the discussion is whether it's more narratively interesting in Burning Wheel than in D&D. Note that they stumbled into this by accident, which means they're also total loving morons. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 22:58
|
|
|
I dug this up because I do think it's germain to the conversation, not out of some grogs.txt amusement. This is how actual racists use D&D to promote their ideas.quote:From reading and posting on the internet, I read a lot of foolish comments from the anti's. Statements like "I know a black person who is really smart, therefore everything you say about racial intelligence differences is wrong." Well, of course, the lack of understanding of statistics this statement shows is staggering. I try to recall when in my life when I could have fallen for such a foolish statement and I can't think of when I would have. Zurui fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jun 27, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 27, 2020 23:00
|
|
|
For anyone who wants further ammo to fling at someone whining that D&D racial ability modifiers are inherent to the game - they aren't, not in every single official edition. B/X, which grognards revere, doesn't have them. Nor does OD&D or BECMI. Admittedly, this is because those editions do race-as-class, which has its own problems (and they also have level limits). But if race-as-class isn't essential to D&D (abandoned in 1E-5E), and racial level limits aren't essential (removed in 3E-5E), and racial ability score adjustments aren't (not present until AD&D 1E), then...
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 00:02
|
|
|
Warthur posted:For anyone who wants further ammo to fling at someone whining that D&D racial ability modifiers are inherent to the game - they aren't, not in every single official edition. B/X, which grognards revere, doesn't have them. Nor does OD&D or BECMI. sure, but only 3.5e is Canon to the modern D&D devotee.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 00:06
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:sure, but only 3.5e is Canon to the modern D&D devotee.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 00:08
|
|
|
Warthur posted:For anyone who wants further ammo to fling at someone whining that D&D racial ability modifiers are inherent to the game - they aren't, not in every single official edition. B/X, which grognards revere, doesn't have them. Nor does OD&D or BECMI. ...and racial level limits only existed because previously, only non-humans could multi-class. Like, if I were an elf, I could be a Fighter/Mage/Thief - I'd still be getting my 20 (or whatever) levels, just spread out across three classes. There was obviously no need for this once everyone got 20 levels total.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 00:12
|
|
|
I'm currently writing a Warhammer Fantasy-inspired RPG - and I'm wondering what people make of the following approach (wording not finalised): There are no stat modifiers in Raven's Beak for your race, and as should be obvious races map onto something approaching nationalities. In the world we live in we expect to be able to communicate with people from anywhere and most of us realise they are all human. The world of Raven's Beak on the other hand lacks mass communication so people from far away are expected to be less like us. To represent this no matter where the game is set that culture calls itself human - and has as wide a range of human ethnicities as the real world. Across the border the country with a history of raiding and counter raiding are orcs - which applies no matter which setting the country is. This also enables people to play what they wish - if someone wants the aesthetic of a cat-person I might not have included any, but in a world without mass communication who genuinely knows what people look like on the far side of the world? Except those who live there of course.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 00:15
|
|
|
Warthur posted:For anyone who wants further ammo to fling at someone whining that D&D racial ability modifiers are inherent to the game - they aren't, not in every single official edition. B/X, which grognards revere, doesn't have them. Nor does OD&D or BECMI. I'd argue that "calculate saves as if 4 levels higher" is an ability modifier in the broader sense that says there are inherent differences between the races in OD&D... ...but at the same time "saves against magic, paralysis, wands, petrification, etc." is so removed from real-world stuff that it's a lot less bad: it's more like having rules for how a four-armed alien can use its extra two arms or ability to see microwaves than it is saying that certain races of humanoid are just inherently less intelligent than the rest. There's also a few things in the OD&D errata that gives some races inherent bonuses to things like slings or fighting goblins, but I think these come off more as cultural things: dwarves have bonuses against goblins because of a culture of hatred and war against them and OK actually thinking about maybe rewarding hatred and racism with a combat bonus isn't the best but like, at least it's not saying that orcs are just born stupid, you know? e: GreenMetalSun posted:...and racial level limits only existed because previously, only non-humans could multi-class. Like, if I were an elf, I could be a Fighter/Mage/Thief - I'd still be getting my 20 (or whatever) levels, just spread out across three classes. There was obviously no need for this once everyone got 20 levels total. No, that was there from the beginning. Dwarves can only be fighters, and they can only progress to level 6. This is what you pay for the ability to use the +3 warhammer and having +4 levels for the purposes of calculating saves. LatwPIAT fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Jun 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 00:17
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:No, that was there from the beginning. Dwarves can only be fighters, and they can only progress to level 6. This is what you pay for the ability to use the +3 warhammer and having +4 levels for the purposes of calculating saves. That's definitely not that case in 2E and/or 2E 'Advanced', but I assume it did occur in a previous edition.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 00:36
|
|
|
GreenMetalSun posted:...and racial level limits only existed because previously, only non-humans could multi-class. Like, if I were an elf, I could be a Fighter/Mage/Thief - I'd still be getting my 20 (or whatever) levels, just spread out across three classes. There was obviously no need for this once everyone got 20 levels total. That never worked or added up the way it was supposed to. Half-orc cleric topped out at 4 (so they'd make good antagonists). Even then nothing was stopping a human from dual/classing and having 40 class levels but tons of XP. They weren't in there for balance, they were in there to enforce the human-centric Greyhawk campaign setting early editions used as a default, and to win an argument of "Well my elf is 500 years old, he should be a level a million wizard."
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 01:40
|
|
|
Related lol. https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/72612-venting-about-d-d-and-diversity-controversy
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 01:42
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 01:43
|
|
|
theironjef posted:That never worked or added up the way it was supposed to. Half-orc cleric topped out at 4 (so they'd make good antagonists). Even then nothing was stopping a human from dual/classing and having 40 class levels but tons of XP. They weren't in there for balance, they were in there to enforce the human-centric Greyhawk campaign setting early editions used as a default, and to win an argument of "Well my elf is 500 years old, he should be a level a million wizard." This is literally copped to in the 2E DMG where they explain that if you remove level limits the world will be completely different than the one described in standard D&D. Has there ever been a supplement/game where that's so and the humans aren't the special snowflakes but instead essentially the humanoid equivalent of sentient dogs?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 01:46
|
|
|
theironjef posted:They weren't in there for balance, they were in there to enforce the human-centric Greyhawk campaign setting early editions used as a default, and to win an argument of "Well my elf is 500 years old, he should be a level a million wizard." Having reread a bunch of original D&D stuff until my eyes bleed, I'm not so sure I'd agree simply because declaring there to be a conscious intent that makes sense in OD&D seems to give Gygax more credit than he deserves. Like he was just writing down rules as they struck his fancy, he might have had some justification for level limits but it could be anything from balance to people who say their elf should have a million levels in Magic-User to wanting to gently caress over Tolkien fans to just thinking it made sense somewhere in his brain that elves have a level cap for reasons that we mere morals cannot possibly understand.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 01:47
|
|
|
Reene posted:This is such a loving bummer. How the gently caress are you still here?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 01:49
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:The honesty of Basic et al that just had non-humans as classes is in retrospect quite refreshing. "Yes, we can't really be hosed to think of them having meaningful societies with several archetypes, but we're really eager to have humans but short and drunk and gold-loving or humans but skinny and of the woods and pointy-eared, somehow separate from regular humans, so we're just going to make Elfing a kind of life calling you can have the same as fighting or magicking." Wakfu's setting has something like this, where all the "races" are (physical differences and all) actually the result of different religious/philosophical followings, and are named after different patron deities. So, if you follow Ecaflip and get way into rogueish gambler stuff you turn into a catperson, if you follow Cra and get into that ranger-y lifestyle you turn into a wild elf equivalent, and so on.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 01:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 21:35 |
|
|
Roadie posted:Wakfu's setting has something like this, where all the "races" are (physical differences and all) actually the result of different religious/philosophical followings, and are named after different patron deities. So, if you follow Ecaflip and get way into rogueish gambler stuff you turn into a catperson, if you follow Cra and get into that ranger-y lifestyle you turn into a wild elf equivalent, and so on. I think they actually are born into their race and can't change it, but they do resemble their god more physically the more they resemble him in personality. So the "stereotype" for Enutrofs is "wizened old git obsessed with gold" and Ruel fits that exactly, but Yugo's dad is generous and big-hearted and doesn't have the standard Enutrof body type.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 01:58
|
|
