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mortons stork posted:lol my dude the examples of people with correct takes on genocide and apartheid being whatabouted into irrelevance as a discursive tactic not to talk about genocide or apartheid was just a few posts behind you, itd be real funny if that were to be the exact argument you chose to break into this particular discussion I wasn’t whataboutering. There was no excusing Israel’s wrongs by saying that others were worse. But it’s maybe valid to ask why there is so much focus on Israel (but not other countries) that it get introduced into discussions where there is no connection. The left is obsessed with it. But yes, I’ll gently caress off now as I’m disrupting the echo chamber.
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Jun 28, 2020 22:33
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therattle posted:Believe it or not I don't really value the opinion of someone who believes a spectacularly discredited ideology. Let me guess, it just hasn't been implemented properly yet? 
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Jun 28, 2020 22:36
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Avirosb posted:Discredited by the kind of people who vote for a reality TV host and Brexit.
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Jun 28, 2020 22:36
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OrthoTrot posted:This is a really good twitter thread about why Peakes claim is antisemitic, probably unknowingly: We’re talking about a cabinet minister being sacked for complimenting an actress and linking to her interview, containing one offhand line about Israel. If this kind of tangential, overwrought bullshit is enough to sack a politician then you can justify the removal of anyone less than 100% forensic. Which of course is the point. Is anyone but the left held to such lofty standards?
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Jun 28, 2020 22:43
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i got curious as to why there were a lot of new posts, and long story short i strongly dislike keir starmer's avatar
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Jun 28, 2020 22:49
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Shogi posted:We’re talking about a cabinet minister being sacked for complimenting an actress and linking to her interview, containing one offhand line about Israel. If this kind of tangential, overwrought bullshit is enough to sack a politician then you can justify the removal of anyone less than 100% forensic. Which of course is the point. Is anyone but the left held to such lofty standards? of course not. when people are kicked over stuff like this it's always because they wanted rid of them to begin with. starmer was always the anti-socialist candidate and now he's purged the socialists from the front bench in a manner which has broad support, continuing the ludicrous weaponisation of a largely fabricated antisemitism problem on the left. long-term, this is incredibly dangerous
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Jun 28, 2020 23:08
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Serious question. As you can probably tell, I mostly read the Guardian, and generally agree with its positions. I won't read any other mainstream papers as they are too right-wing. (The Guardian is probably too right for most posters here). I am looking for writing on news and politics that is left of the Guardian, but not TOO far left, as that starts getting into a mindset that I can't relate to (as illustrated nicely by my interactions here). I look at The Canary every now and again, but it feels to me like the left equivalent of Breitbart, full of polemic and manufactured outrage. So what do you all read? And since I am still here Avirosb posted:Discredited by the kind of people who vote for a reality TV host and Brexit. I was thinking more about the few remaining countries which still practice communism, or a form of it, compared to those which have tried it (most of which ended rather badly). None of them allow much political freedom or dissent. Draw your own conclusions. Capitalism has serious problems and is unsustainable, but I don't believe that communism is a viable alternative. Shogi posted:We’re talking about a cabinet minister being sacked for complimenting an actress and linking to her interview, containing one offhand line about Israel. If this kind of tangential, overwrought bullshit is enough to sack a politician then you can justify the removal of anyone less than 100% forensic. Which of course is the point. Is anyone but the left held to such lofty standards? She was given the chance to retract and apologise, and didn't. (I have no idea why; what did she think would happen?). I think that's what did for her - plus a context where Starmer had to show ruthlessness and decisiveness.
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Jun 28, 2020 23:11
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therattle posted:That’s a glib attempt to make a pretty abstract connection between things which have no actual link like the article posited. And this is an attempt to avoid answering my direct question. What do you think is gained by separating each recognizable form of oppression into it's own little cubby? Some of us are opposed to all, and can see the connections between them quite easily. The ongoing genocides in Gaza and Chicago are both conducted with the same strategies, equipment, racist justifications, and they are conducted at the orders of the same people: the ruling class of the United States. This tweet specifically got my dander up. https://twitter.com/YairWallach/status/1276252150599999496 It's not coming from "somewhere else." Israel is an American colony, and is the premier western research hub and testbed of modern colonization (google xinjiang to learn about eastern competitors). When leftists here in the US complain about Police Militarization, we are not sad that our pure and pleasant policemen are being corrupted by our dirty foreign soldiers: we are recognizing that policing and imperialism are part of the same project, regardless of any separation of their respective bureaucracies. The people administering it recognize that. You'll win no points by pretending you don't.
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Jun 28, 2020 23:20
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This is C-SPAM not D&D stop falling for the lovely troll. The only reason to not put therattle on ignore and stop replying to them is if you believe they will make a post worth reading.
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Jun 28, 2020 23:22
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endlessmonotony posted:This is C-SPAM not D&D stop falling for the lovely troll. The ignore button is for cowards, just actually ignore them
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Jun 28, 2020 23:28
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Continuity RCP posted:The ignore button is for cowards, just actually ignore them I don't need to blast the firehose of stupid into my eyes to know I want nothing to do with it. Though, yes, if you just choose to never reply to them that works fine too. Saw ninety posts and thought something big had happened but nah y'all were just getting fishmeched.
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Jun 28, 2020 23:30
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Doc Hawkins posted:And this is an attempt to avoid answering my direct question. What do you think is gained by separating each recognizable form of oppression into it's own little cubby? Some of us are opposed to all, and can see the connections between them quite easily. The ongoing genocides in Gaza and Chicago are both conducted with the same strategies, equipment, racist justifications, and they are conducted at the orders of the same people: the ruling class of the United States. You're right about systemic linkages. But is is not relevant to the facts in this case: there was an assertion made which was untrue. Pointing out that Israeli and American violence are both manifestations of the same system doesn't make it true that the cops who killed George Floyd were trained by Israel. That was not the point that Maz=xine Peake was making. endlessmonotony posted:This is C-SPAM not D&D stop falling for the lovely troll. I've just read the rules again and actually yes, it looks like I should be posting more in D&D than C-SPAM. It's hard to post a comment or two and not get drawn into debate though. Given that my viewpoint seems to differ from the majority, I probably shouldn't post here as it will just result in argument, which doesn't seem to be the point of this sub-forum. (Although I am not 100% clear on what the point is then). I would be open to reading some different perspectives on politics though.
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Jun 28, 2020 23:31
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therattle posted:I probably shouldn't post here thank you and good luck
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Jun 28, 2020 23:44
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Feel free to disregard the below post if you do not want to read a response to therattle. I haven't read any sort of mission statement on the purpose of C-SPAM, but it hasn't been hard to glean that it's a space for discussing politics without having to respond to the kind of centrist concern trolling that infests most every online space for discussing politics. Like the below quote: therattle posted:Yes, I oppose it too. I believe in Israel's right to exist, but I cannot stand the current government, hate Netanyahu, and think annexation is deeply wrong. I am sure that everyone here gets equally worked up about Saudi Arabia (my personal fave), Sri Lanka, Brazil, Russia, Syria, etc, right? I see people writing "Death to Saudi Arabia!" all the time. And Australia too, for that matter. You seem to be asking sincerely, but everyone here has had this conversation a jillion times and just wants to post without having to relitigate it every time someone stumbles across a discussion and starts demanding decorum. Short answers: Nobody here approves of the human rights abuses of Saudi Arabia, Australia or whatever else you don't think gets denounced with enough frequency. Israel comes up more frequently because criticism of Israel is what leads to things like the last vestiges of the UK having a left-of-center party getting purged. Communism is a much wider ideology than whatever particular examples of state capitalism you're personally waiting for people to denounce. If you want a longer answer, this is not the place for it. I'm sure if you posted your own thread in D&D asking why people are grousing about Israel in particular or why communism is actually cool, you'd get a better answer.
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Jun 28, 2020 23:53
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therattle posted:You're right about systemic linkages. But is is not relevant to the facts in this case: there was an assertion made which was untrue. 
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Jun 29, 2020 00:24
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therattle posted:I wasn’t whataboutering. There was no excusing Israel’s wrongs by saying that others were worse. But it’s maybe valid to ask why there is so much focus on Israel (but not other countries) that it get introduced into discussions where there is no connection. The left is obsessed with it. oh no was your favorite ethnostate criticised by the meanies on the left 
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Jun 29, 2020 01:13
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Okay but seriously Death To Australia
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Jun 29, 2020 01:22
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therattle posted:Capitalism has serious problems and is unsustainable, but I don't believe that communism is a viable alternative. curious as to what you think the best alternative is
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Jun 29, 2020 01:22
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therattle posted:I was thinking more about the few remaining countries which still practice communism, or a form of it, compared to those which have tried it (most of which ended rather badly). None of them allow much political freedom or dissent. Draw your own conclusions. Okay so here's the problem you're having while posting here: you're stupid. Your brain is bad and doesn't work well. I'm sorry
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Jun 29, 2020 01:28
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Crane Fist posted:Okay but seriously Death To Australia Not even Australia can kill Australia.
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Jun 29, 2020 01:36
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therattle posted:She was given the chance to retract and apologise, and didn't. (I have no idea why; what did she think would happen?). I think that's what did for her - plus a context where Starmer had to show ruthlessness and decisiveness. Eh? What are you on about? https://twitter.com/rlong_bailey/status/1276161748664496128?s=21
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Jun 29, 2020 01:37
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redleader posted:curious as to what you think the best alternative is Something that doesn't inconvenience him or raise any taxes
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Jun 29, 2020 01:45
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OrthoTrot posted:This is a really good twitter thread about why Peakes claim is antisemitic, probably unknowingly: Israeli police don't teach US police how to kill people with choke holds, US pigs know how to do that instinctually. Israeli police teach US police that teargas canisters can be used to take out eyes and how best to manipulate and blackmail informants. Occupied Palestine is a testing ground for new policing tactics that are then redeployed in the US and UK. RLB would have still been sacked if Peake's details were more accurate.
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Jun 29, 2020 03:43
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Atrocious Joe posted:Israeli police don't teach US police how to kill people with choke holds, US pigs know how to do that instinctually. Israeli police teach US police that teargas canisters can be used to take out eyes and how best to manipulate and blackmail informants. Occupied Palestine is a testing ground for new policing tactics that are then redeployed in the US and UK. RLB would have still been sacked if Peake's details were more accurate. Absolutely. It was a political move by Starmer to get rid of an opponent. It was utterly in bad faith. Completely hypocritical to sack RLB and keep Reeves. Starmer no more cares about antisemitism than any other kind of racism. Retweeting an article doesn't in any rational conversation indicate you agree with every statement in it. But all of that also means we don't have to get drawn into defending the actual sentence from Peake that was the problem. It's better to take that on its merits.
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Jun 29, 2020 07:35
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As an american I have to say I'm astonished how effective these blatantly cynical accusations of antisemitism have been in british politics. Great country y'all have there. I hope Scotland secedes and leaves you as a backwater yearning for the glory days of the empire
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Jun 29, 2020 07:47
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Pizza Segregationist posted:As an american I have to say I'm astonished how effective these blatantly cynical accusations of antisemitism have been in british politics. Great country y'all have there. I hope Scotland secedes and leaves you as a backwater yearning for the glory days of the empire we're lovely but at least we're not the current imperial centre
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Jun 29, 2020 08:03
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Just for the record I am the op of a cspam thread calling for us to nuke Saudi arabia and the UK
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Jun 29, 2020 08:55
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Jose posted:Just for the record I am the op of a cspam thread calling for us to nuke Saudi arabia and the UK But not Australia? Sure thing, officer
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Jun 29, 2020 09:01
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Starmer is 100% going to capitulate to Tories saying that any criticism of black or Asian Tories is racist and will use this as an excuse to not criticise the government over despicable home office poo poo
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Jun 29, 2020 09:20
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what's labour's brexit stance now
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Jun 29, 2020 09:39
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accusing brexit of not being brexit is racist
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Jun 29, 2020 09:43
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i say swears online posted:what's labour's brexit stance now saying absolutely nothing
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Jun 29, 2020 09:51
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it's literally just "the government said they will sort it out by December, so we will hold them to that" because that ham faced oval office refuses to take a stance on anything apart from summarily sacking left wingers, and wanks off at the thought of forensically holding Bojo to account at pmqs in January as food riots rage outside parliament
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Jun 29, 2020 09:56
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Pizza Segregationist posted:As an american I have to say I'm astonished how effective these blatantly cynical accusations of antisemitism have been in british politics. Great country y'all have there. I hope Scotland secedes and leaves you as a backwater yearning for the glory days of the empire it helps that they're only deployed against a faction with no big press institution backing them, so it universally gets covered as 'RLB gets sacked after retweeting antisemitic article', even by the newspaper that printed the interview in the first place. it does the job both of effectively making any nod towards palestinian solidarity beyond the pale and serving to purge the left from prominent positions i take it rayner didn't fight for her dear friend on this? worthless
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Jun 29, 2020 10:01
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https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1277499173168963584 ohhh, keir-e-my starrr-merrr
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Jun 29, 2020 10:14
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Jose posted:Just for the record I am the op of a cspam thread calling for us to nuke Saudi arabia and the UK yes but then you also literally want Saudi Arabia to buy the football team you support and you have spent 100 posts explaining why that is not so bad and you would still support them so 🤷♂️
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Jun 29, 2020 11:25
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José owns a Saudi football team? Edit: I thought that said “went to” not “want” I think I need glasses
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Jun 29, 2020 11:28
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Have you seen the article? I don't disagree that it was dumb, but it mentions Israel exactly once at the end of an eye-glazing paragraph which has nothing to do with the rest of its text. It would be lovely if people could curate their social media feeds to contain no lovely journalism, but I'm not sure how you'd get anywhere as a UK politician like that. I do try and keep optimism because otherwise I look at the current political situation and the screaming in my head begins. It is really getting me down tbh. Honestly I would welcome a centrist labour government at the moment, anything to get the tories out of power. The country has already decided that Better Things Are Not Possible and until all of the olds die and the young decide that they should actually vote this will not change. I really bum myself out sometimes. Can somebody tell me how pretty I am? 
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Jun 29, 2020 11:39
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oliwan posted:yes but then you also literally want Saudi Arabia to buy the football team you support and you have spent 100 posts explaining why that is not so bad and you would still support them so 🤷♂️ I mostly don't care because I've stopped giving a poo poo
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Jun 29, 2020 11:54
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Dravs posted:I do try and keep optimism because otherwise I look at the current political situation and the screaming in my head begins. It is really getting me down tbh. Sorry, it wasn’t my intention to pour salt on a wound. It sounds like you’re doing genuine work to fight for better things, and regardless of how much that succeeds, it’s a beautiful thing to do.
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Jun 29, 2020 12:22
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