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I have some faith in the fact that far right ideology is inherently exclusionary, I don't think they have the ability to mass appeal to anyone other than white cishet dudes, who, inshallah, will become a smaller minority over time. They can tolerate "good ones" but they can't actually systemically support and build relationships with other sorts of people.
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Jun 29, 2020 14:35
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XMNN posted:tbf to Donald trump he has done at least some good for the world by providing us a non-ableist alternative to various slurs in the form of "presidential" the trilateral thing + his war chest of mysterious funding is real crack ping stuff but like all conspiracies only surface appearance really matters, whether he was grown in a deep state vat or got this way all by himself doesn't really change much
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Jun 29, 2020 14:36
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Noxville posted:I haven’t read far enough into the replies to get there, how can ‘read the room’ be considered ableist? It is completely unsurprising to me that there's so much pushback in this thread against making even minor personal changes to avoid hurting other people
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Jun 29, 2020 14:38
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sounds like you need to "understand the social context" this is fine because I'm not using the explicitly forbidden words, which is more important than the actual sentiment behind them
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Jun 29, 2020 14:41
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keep punching joe posted:I was jesting about MI5 but after googling it I just googled starmer MI5 and ummmm https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mi5-agent-accused-over-the-torture-263306 MI5 agent accused over the torture of a terror suspect Binyam Mohamed will not face court posted:An MI5 agent accused over the torture of a terror suspect will not face court, it was announced yesterday. disgusted I gave this man even the slightest benefit of the doubt to be honest
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Jun 29, 2020 14:42
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OwlFancier posted:I have some faith in the fact that far right ideology is inherently exclusionary, I don't think they have the ability to mass appeal to anyone other than white cishet dudes, who, inshallah, will become a smaller minority over time. There's less chance, because it's a community of people who've never had to organize before, so you get a group project where everyone is the guy that doesn't want to do the work, but still a) gently caress them anyway b) going from a handful of consensus manufacturing news sources to a huge number of organic community news sources is great for marginalized voices but also might drive the alienation and cultural immiseration that produces said butthurt white guys with ~legitimate concerns~
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Jun 29, 2020 14:52
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They can, but I think that's the thing, they provide shelter but struggle to motivate en masse, they have no positive vision of the world, even their goals are not... really optimistic as far as I can tell? Like their literature is loving dour even by their own standards, it's all loving suicidal ideation. They just don't have the vitality of liberation focused movements.
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Jun 29, 2020 14:56
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Threep posted:"Read the room" is one of those phrases autistic people get to hear a lot while spending much of their life completely unable to do it because it's about non-verbal cues I'm glad you wrote that because it hadn't occurred to me when I was wiffling on about it meaning 'vibes' and I really should know better than that for reasons.
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Jun 29, 2020 15:01
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keep punching joe posted:I was jesting about MI5 but after googling it https://thegrayzone.com/2020/06/05/...lishment-links/
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Jun 29, 2020 15:23
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Grayzone is trash https://medium.com/muros-invisibles...fbe335f1cf47b6c
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Jun 29, 2020 15:28
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i knew someone was going to say that but just read it. its basic stuff and the meeting with the former head of MI5 isn't exactly secret
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Jun 29, 2020 15:29
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Miftan posted:No, I agree. I meant that they're a pressure group atm, they can't get anything through parliament, but they also need to get elected, so they probably think they need to choose what they pressure on. Which means, to me, they've decided trans issues aren't important enough to pressure on. I completely agree they should be taking a hard stance on this, and the fact that they're not speaks to their priorities. Jose posted:*ronya comes crashing into the thread to post about corbyn's labour suggesting 10k more cops* Feels like 'more police' and 'free summer meals' have decent traction with the public. A 'hard stance' on trans issues just feels like fiddling while Rome burns, especially if a) it's true that countries with better trans rights developed those through the back door, bundled with other stuff and b) it's not a vote winner by itself and even trans activists don't consider it a single issue. The antisemitism thing was just a handy way to dismiss RLB and distance him from a leader seen as weak and untrustworthy. Don't think the average voter minds about a/s too much one way or the other.
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Jun 29, 2020 15:30
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Breath Ray posted:A 'hard stance' on trans issues just feels like fiddling while Rome burns Standing up for minority groups "Fiddling while rome burns"
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Jun 29, 2020 15:34
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Jose posted:i knew someone was going to say that but just read it and believe it anyway because it says what I already believe.
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Jun 29, 2020 15:35
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Stormgale posted:Standing up for minority groups "Fiddling while rome burns"
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Jun 29, 2020 15:38
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The tories have decent traction with the public so obviously we should just do what they do.
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Jun 29, 2020 15:39
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Guavanaut posted:I was going to say something about Starmer supporting and holding Nero to account while Rome burns, but he's never held wealthy fiddlers to account either. XMNN posted:I just googled starmer MI5 and ummmm so you don't think the fact starmer as DPP having meetings with the former MI5 chief that he's never elaborated on is suspicious?
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Jun 29, 2020 15:40
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Threep posted:"Read the room" is one of those phrases autistic people get to hear a lot while spending much of their life completely unable to do it because it's about non-verbal cues That kind of social phenomenon, blithely telling people to just do something that they can’t easily do, or being casually hurtful through ignorance or indifference, won’t really be solved by policing idioms - that feels like treating symptoms rather than causes, to me. It’s more important to educate people about the experiences of others and encourage them to think before they speak as a habit. Just listing the bad words on twitter comes off as a little bit facile if I’m honest, though I get the intent behind it. I’ve got a Thom Yorked eye that just stares longsightedly into the void and can’t say I’ve ever been hurt by ‘turn a blind eye’, ‘one-eyed bias’ or ‘lacking depth’ though I have been annoyed by people being rude intrusive cunts about it sometimes. There is no point in me trying to stop people saying ‘the eyes are the window to the soul’ or whatever, it’s not like it will change anything at a deep level and is likely to just irritate them. I’d rather they learned something more useful and spent a bit of energy thinking about how other people see things.
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Jun 29, 2020 15:47
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I have generally found that people who care about the words you use are quite willing to explain why they think it's important if you don't respond immediately by telling them they're stupid and wrong for bringing it up.
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Jun 29, 2020 15:56
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Jose posted:he's CEO of BLM now Jesus Christ, like I can understand him not going full ACAB and instead talking about addressing the root societal causes rather than pouring money into enforcement but no mention of that and just "Nah that's nonsense gently caress yeah love the police". If it was just that I'd still even kind of get what he's going for but calling BLM a moment rather than a movement, and that it was all just about George Floyd's murder rather than deeper systemic issues? Just straight up fodder for racists from the Labour leader, finally some real opposition 
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Jun 29, 2020 15:58
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Stormgale posted:Standing up for minority groups "Fiddling while rome burns" When the Tory plan for 2020 is to speedrun both the economic effects and the body count of World War 2 and there is no opposition to any of it, it hardly seems worth mentioning that transfolk have other problems as well.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:06
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The labour black vote collapsing would be the least he deserves. Just wish there were an alternative place for people he's clearly dead set on marginalizing to get representation.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:06
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Gonzo McFee posted:You know what's really depressing me. We could get a leak from MI5 showing that they actively sabotaged Labour for ten years and pushed Starmer to become Labour leader and the most attention it would garner would be on twitter. The press would ignore it and move on. We've completely abdicated any power or position in mainstream electoral politics and we're just cut out entirely beyond occasional jabs about twitter. "MI5 is the leadership the Labour Party desperately needs if it's to regain voters' trust" - my opinion piece today in the Guardian.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:08
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keep punching joe posted:I was jesting about MI5 but after googling it Yeah it's my fan theory too and started as a joke I think at the bare minimum if mi5 weren't pushing him they were neglecting the one bit of their job they actually do
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Jun 29, 2020 16:13
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Can’t really grasp Starmer’s plan even from a ‘red team win election’ standpoint atm. The tactic of keeping your head down and waiting for the opposition to gently caress it doesn’t work when the media is backing them - 60K dead and opinion has barely shifted. I don’t expect him to call for abolishing the police, that would be suicide by press, but there’s so much room to stand out well and show opposition without going there.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:17
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Sketh posted:Jesus Christ, like I can understand him not going full ACAB and instead talking about addressing the root societal causes rather than pouring money into enforcement but no mention of that and just "Nah that's nonsense gently caress yeah love the police". If it was just that I'd still even kind of get what he's going for but calling BLM a moment rather than a movement, and that it was all just about George Floyd's murder rather than deeper systemic issues? Just straight up fodder for racists from the Labour leader, finally some real opposition
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Jun 29, 2020 16:17
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Stormgale posted:Standing up for minority groups "Fiddling while rome burns" Breath Ray hasn't been about much of late but indisputably a trash person https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=1&threadid=3799942&pagenumber=99&perpage=40#post467777507 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=1&threadid=3781713&pagenumber=153&perpage=40#post461978047 (talking of that last one, holy loving poo poo, talk about a take that aged dreadfully, Theresa May is going to be our best PM ever!)
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Jun 29, 2020 16:20
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Hey y'all, since we've been in a pensive mood as the forums might explode for the last week (or whatever? Wait, 3 days? 4?) anyway, I thought I'd say thank you to the thread for one more thing. You folks have helped me understand that I'm non-binary, in particular, currently IDing as non-binary man, pronouns he or they. WHich I've just opened up about on FB, this is the other place I really want to share that info. There is a lot more if anyone is interested, but that's the crunch of it. Thanks thread. (You don't get a photo to try and push the post up peoples' feeds, the algorithm doesn't care about us here)
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Jun 29, 2020 16:40
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The people hanker for the 2012 olympics when britane was great and perfect - therefore I big brained Sir Haircut, will make my party the apex of all politics: David Cameron's tories.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:40
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Shogi posted:Can’t really grasp Starmer’s plan even from a ‘red team win election’ standpoint atm. The tactic of keeping your head down and waiting for the opposition to gently caress it doesn’t work when the media is backing them - 60K dead and opinion has barely shifted. I don’t expect him to call for abolishing the police, that would be suicide by press, but there’s so much room to stand out well and show opposition without going there. it's politics by focus group - on policing there is solid support for more police rather than less; this hasn't changed in the past few years and it doesn't look to be shifting now. The US phenomenon of excess police funding is a US phenomenon, not a UK phenomenon. Same reason Corbyn hopped on that boat to begin with. It's not like it was a comfortable position to adopt. on coronavirus lockdowns there is support for more caution in general but also support for dismantling measures in the specific - hence Johnson serially trying to bait Labour into opposing specific easing measure whilst Starmer tries to hit Johnson on caution in the general. "60k dead" is an attack that only makes sense to an already anti-Tory frame, just as the ### DEAD FROM AUSTERITY only made sense in that frame. Resentment of particular measures really sticks. I don't think Starmer has to hit Johnson all that hard for the idea of Johnson as careless with lives to stick - it's a natural fit to the image Johnson sets out for himself - whilst he does have to avoid getting tarred with having pushed too hard for particular lockdown measures fwiw I think Corbyn would have taken every BLM bait and then some; it's catnip to his politics and it falls into the group of topics where he's willing to endlessly burn political capital to fight for a certain message (see also: Skripal). In an alternate universe not too different from ours every headline is screaming about Labour's self-evident untrustworthiness when the Labour Leader swore hand on heart last year that he will, will Reverse These Tory Cuts, he will Put Bobbies On The Street To Halt Knife Crime And Keep You Safe, yes he and Home Secretary Abbott love the coppers now, will the Prime Minister apologise to the police (and because this hypothetical universe isn't that different from ours, none of the headlines particularly care about whether Johnson is adhering to his promises for Even Bigger Numbers. That's not a story, and it's especially not a story because Johnson will act to make it tedious to cover whilst Corbyn would do the opposite, precisely because Corbyn would want to go to bat for this particular message). whether or not that sacrifice for those values would be worth it, well, that's ultimately a political judgment innit. Every political leader has some set of values they're willing to sacrifice political capital for; the trick is assuring enough one of one's tent that it's their values that are most prized (and, conversely, for those that prioritize those values, making sure that it really is - whilst still winning power, of course) ronya fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jun 29, 2020 |
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Jun 29, 2020 16:42
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thespaceinvader posted:Hey y'all, since we've been in a pensive mood as the forums might explode for the last week (or whatever? Wait, 3 days? 4?) anyway, I thought I'd say thank you to the thread for one more thing. I want to say congratulations but that always seems a bit odd given how hard it can be to be any sort of nonconforming in the gender/sexuality department, but I hope it helps you feel better in yourself in future and it means a lot that you wanted to share it here.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:42
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https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1277598191718928384 Just demanding people be put to the meat thresher. Fully expect Starmer to support it.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:45
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The problem with focus groups is that they're dumb as gently caress.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:46
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OwlFancier posted:I want to say congratulations but that always seems a bit odd given how hard it can be to be any sort of nonconforming in the gender/sexuality department, but I hope it helps you feel better in yourself in future and it means a lot that you wanted to share it here. Congratulations are probably appropriate, albeit yeah, I chose a hell of a time. (The hell of a time is part of why I chose it actually, I felt it's time to stand up and be counted)
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Jun 29, 2020 16:49
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Then you've a lot more guts than me, I'm not even out as bi to most of the people I know.
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Jun 29, 2020 16:56
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1277598191718928384 WHAT loving JOB ARE YOU MEANT TO BE APPLYING FOR YOU GODDAMN SOCIOPATHS? If they could just come out and euthanise people for being unemployed that'd be more honest and tbh more humane than this loving policy
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Jun 29, 2020 16:56
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1277598191718928384 Well I sure hope that the bus services people rely on to get to the job centre for interviews etc are back up and running then. They aren't round here!
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Jun 29, 2020 16:58
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Gonzo McFee posted:The problem with focus groups is that they're dumb as gently caress. Yes, they are. Painfully so. They're hideously expensive whilst not really closing the gap between what voters say they want and what they actually reward with votes. All they can offer is some clarification on competing dominant readings of the polling, which can be sampled much more often* There's also something to be said for Overton windows and the moving thereof Happily of course (?) backbenchers, activists, allied NGOs, &c can volunteer for the fun test-balloon ride instead * my pet theory is that this is why the quality of focus-group-tested messaging seems to get worse as groupthink increases (see e.g. late New Labour). the groups can't actually test messages, they're just there to judge a competition between factions on some metric other than management committee judo. But it's actually the competition that is driving effort, not the effectiveness of focus group consultation
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Jun 29, 2020 16:58
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I mean god drat how difficult would it be to say "Black Lives Matter is a movement that comes out of opposition to structural racism and extreme violence within certain police forces in the United States. Britain is different, our police began in Peelian Principles, not as armed fugitive slave patrols, and I think we can be proud of that here, while investing in our local communities." or some poo poo. That's not 100% true and it'd have a bunch of people in Brixton and Derry calling bullshit (and weasels out of facing Britain's structural racism), but at least it says something TV friendly that's not "I have no clue what BLM is about and love every perfect cop." Half of #DefundThePolice (admittedly the more liberal half, but I'm not expecting any party leader go full abolition on air) is having police without military superweapons, police that aren't routinely armed, and community officers who come from the community, engage with the community, and genuinely want to solve problems with the community. If he couldn't find something to praise about British policing by contrast with US policing within that then either he hasn't done the slightest bit of research into BLM/DTP or he wants police more like the US, and either of those is poo poo.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:00
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forkboy84 posted:Breath Ray hasn't been about much of late but indisputably a trash person I figured, I just figured someone had to Call them on it.
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Jun 29, 2020 17:02
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