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What the gently caress is a "Roman?"
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Jun 29, 2020 17:00
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Crazycryodude posted:What the gently caress is a "Roman?" "Roman" is the hypothesized but frequently accepted endonym for a specific period of the Red Jugs culture, referring to the era before there was a widespread ten-men rebellion, see this discussion: Obliterati posted:Forget this archaic and unprovenanced term of 'Latins': can't we all just go back to calling it by its archaeologically recognised name, the Red Jugs culture? Tulip posted:when referring to this specific period the more precise but still common term is "ten-men," for their habit of adorning things with the Chinese numeral for ten, including often a small man in what is either some form of ancestor worship or perhaps a primitive fylgja. E: The origin and etymology of "Roman" has been lost to time, unfortunately, but seems to refer to some area in the center, likely in Germany.
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Jun 29, 2020 18:08
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Lynneth posted:Archaeologists of the future will have such a field day. with the Roman ruins. The Latinology boom in the 1800s will be quite something. The curse of dead emperors and god as the content of their temples are
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Jun 29, 2020 19:50
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Personally, I think it's doubtful that the Europeans could have built these structures. They're far too sophisticated and ordered for such a poor and primitive region. Are we sure we can't rule out aliens?
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Jun 29, 2020 20:04
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About the Ten-men thing. Weren't both Serbia and Carantania some form of Christians by the end of CKII? If so Christianity would undeniably be in pretty rough shape compared to otl, but I'm not sure to it would reach the point were it would be considered some largely unknown and not understood cult or movement.
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Jun 29, 2020 20:28
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I mean, Isa would still be considered a prophet in Islam, so you'd probably get a lot of historians in the 1800s treating Christianity as some type of religious offshoot of the still extant Jewish and Islamic traditions.
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Jun 30, 2020 00:30
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Ikasuhito posted:About the Ten-men thing. Weren't both Serbia and Carantania some form of Christians by the end of CKII? If so Christianity would undeniably be in pretty rough shape compared to otl, but I'm not sure to it would reach the point were it would be considered some largely unknown and not understood cult or movement. Christianity, in some form or another, is doing a lot worse than OTL, but it's still around. Serbia and Carantania are the two most important kingdoms where it is widely practiced. The others are some smaller German realms and some of the Russian ones.  Serbia, like Eflak, is Orthodox.  Carantania, the largest Christian power by any definition, is Bogomilist.
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Jun 30, 2020 00:47
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Honestly the big thing that would keep Rome from being mythical might be Islam still being around. Islamic scholars love the poo poo out of Greek and Roman writers. But then, I don't remember what the state of Islam is, what with all the Buddhists and Hindus in the ME proper. Is Mali Sunni? Timbuktu was a huge medieval university city in OTL, maybe they're sitting on the last copies of Tacitus somewhere in the stacks.
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Jun 30, 2020 02:09
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Rody One Half posted:Honestly the big thing that would keep Rome from being mythical might be Islam still being around. Islamic scholars love the poo poo out of Greek and Roman writers. But then, I don't remember what the state of Islam is, what with all the Buddhists and Hindus in the ME proper. Is Mali Sunni? Timbuktu was a huge medieval university city in OTL, maybe they're sitting on the last copies of Tacitus somewhere in the stacks. It would also depend on how Conquistador Aztecs would treat the knowledge of their defeated subjects. Would they go OTL Spanish and burn everything? Collect it as 'historical curiosites'? Ignore it?
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Jun 30, 2020 16:06
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Could we get a religion mapmode view? And yeah, dudes like Avicenna in the 10th century knew their Aristotle, so the Greeks at least would still be known. e: dunno if we would have gotten Averroese in this timeline, though, given that he was born in the 12th century after the Great Timeline Mess Up occured with the Sunset Invasion. habeasdorkus fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Jun 30, 2020 |
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Jun 30, 2020 17:51
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Mighty Rome forgotten... The Europe map is a stark reminder of how Europe got hit hard in this timeline.
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Jul 1, 2020 04:57
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habeasdorkus posted:Could we get a religion mapmode view? I can't do it for the whole map at once with special map modes. 1.29 broke that feature and I'm playing on 1.30. But here are some individual screenshots for what we've newly discovered.   Rody One Half posted:Honestly the big thing that would keep Rome from being mythical might be Islam still being around. Islamic scholars love the poo poo out of Greek and Roman writers. But then, I don't remember what the state of Islam is, what with all the Buddhists and Hindus in the ME proper. Is Mali Sunni? Timbuktu was a huge medieval university city in OTL, maybe they're sitting on the last copies of Tacitus somewhere in the stacks.  Mali is mostly Sunni. Anatolia and Mali are the largest Sunni powers.
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Jul 2, 2020 01:56
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I wonder what the Hajj is like in this world, given how hinduism's spread into the middle east. I think based upon Orthodoxy and Sunni still being present there'd be a fair amount of knowledge left about the Greek and Roman eras, though who knows how that gets interpreted in this world.
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Jul 2, 2020 03:28
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The Hajj could still go to Mecca, the Hindu powers could make bank taxing pilgrims if they wanted to.
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Jul 2, 2020 03:44
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Considering that this was a time of fire and brimstone, they could have destroyed the city just as well.
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Jul 2, 2020 09:08
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Yeah, I'm more concerned about the Kaaba being damaged/destroyed.
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Jul 2, 2020 14:34
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If I'm reading the religion map right I think Mecca is Yazidi so the Kaaba is probably ok. If I'm not, Hinduism is a very adaptive religion and I think the Kaaba would still be kept around.
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Jul 2, 2020 19:53
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Ikasuhito posted:About the Ten-men thing. Weren't both Serbia and Carantania some form of Christians by the end of CKII? If so Christianity would undeniably be in pretty rough shape compared to otl, but I'm not sure to it would reach the point were it would be considered some largely unknown and not understood cult or movement. I freely admit that I wanted to 1) make fun of how people talk about foreign cultures and 2) was creating a pretext for a pun I like. zealouscub posted:If I'm reading the religion map right I think Mecca is Yazidi so the Kaaba is probably ok. If I'm not, Hinduism is a very adaptive religion and I think the Kaaba would still be kept around. Historical Hinduism is not typically super hardcore about exterminating competitors, but there have definitely been pogroms and the conflicts between Hinduism and Islam are particularly fraught IRL, so it could go any of a number of ways.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:11
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For what it's worth, this timeline's Timur, who was Bon, developed the 'Sympathy for Islam' trait at some point, so even if he did conquer all of the Arabian peninsula he would be more likely to spare all the holy sites. Maybe a good reference would be the Goths sparing the churches at the sack of Rome OTL because of their Arianism. His son was an rear end in a top hat with the impaler trait. But if the major landmarks survived the initial invasion, they probably made it through the breakup of the empire.
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Jul 2, 2020 22:39
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Kangxi posted:For what it's worth, this timeline's Timur, who was Bon, developed the 'Sympathy for Islam' trait at some point, so even if he did conquer all of the Arabian peninsula he would be more likely to spare all the holy sites. Maybe a good reference would be the Goths sparing the churches at the sack of Rome OTL because of their Arianism. But now they have cool spikes!
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Jul 2, 2020 22:43
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I don't know my EUIV maps well enough, are Mecca and Medina owned by different countries?
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Jul 3, 2020 00:37
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habeasdorkus posted:I don't know my EUIV maps well enough, are Mecca and Medina owned by different countries? I think they're both in the Jerusalem Raj, but it's been ages since I've played EU4.
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Jul 3, 2020 18:07
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zealouscub posted:If I'm reading the religion map right I think Mecca is Yazidi so the Kaaba is probably ok. If I'm not, Hinduism is a very adaptive religion and I think the Kaaba would still be kept around. Yazidism isn't Islamic. It's honestly still pretty strange that CK2 made it a heresy.
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Jul 3, 2020 18:16
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habeasdorkus posted:I don't know my EUIV maps well enough, are Mecca and Medina owned by different countries?  Medina and much of the surrounding area is owned by the Jerusalem Raj. The red exclave is the Timurids. Mecca is the last remnant of the Yazidi(!) sultanate of Hormuz, which has declined almost continuously since the 15th century.
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Jul 3, 2020 22:13
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Chapter 66: 1545 to 1560 - The Favourite The mid-1500s was a period of great historical and cultural interest, spawning many literary, film, and even musical adaptations. The following passages are from the novel A City of Thorns, by Battsetseg Mönkhbat, which are a stylized depiction of the life and relations of the noblewoman Tisho Tridé Songtsen. I should have just gone on a boat and been done with it.  That's what I had thought as I headed to Lhasa and passed under the great reliquary gate. If I'd gone on one of the Tamil ships or just to the holy mountains of Ethiopia and made my way further south, I'd be better off going to the distant ends of the earth and raising cattle there - or setting up a trade convoy, with gems for gold.  This wasn't a century ago when the Empress Lasya would have her ministers pulled apart by horses for the most minor offenses. But there were still risks.  But there were those loyal ministers who, through service to the empire, earned great rewards and prestige. And that was how I, a provincial noble from the distant western stretches of the empire, made my way to Lhasa.   The empire hadn't expanded much, and the days of distant conquest and military campaign it seemed had passed. But the news of distant discoveries was constantly on my mind, and I gossiped eagerly with the other arrivals over what they had heard of and seen, what the ships brought back, where any other travelers might be found.  A perfumed merchant from Nanjing told me, for example, that the old Han Dynasty, driven into exile after Lasya's conquest, was completely overrun by foreign pirates. And he spat betel seeds onto the floor as if to say that was all he thought of them. Still another, a Hakka woman with a broad hat like an umbrella, told me that the followers of the Third Jin Dynasty - whatever was left of the eastern Purgyals - were hoping to stage a return with new allies across all of China.  To the distant west, the stories were the same as they always here. Many great and formidable empires, each competing with each other for some trade route or parcel of valuable territory.  But in Lhasa, there were still many places for a young noble to distinguish themselves in court. Even a few commoners could find themselves in positions of responsibility due to their loyalty and skill.  The most intriguing stories were about the Elector-King and his wife, the Queen Shonnu. They made a formidable couple - the king was unusually skilled at the basics of administration - of understanding farms, crafting, and the routes of trade, tabulating his income and understanding the law. His wife, on the other hand, was a formidable negotiator.  The realm was broadly prosperous. Famines were few and far between, harvests were plentiful.  That was perhaps the most cooperative I'd ever seen the nobility. Any plans to fund the expansion of the navy, even, fell short. But this was something that could be agreed on.  I had heard the news that Tibet had signed a formal alliance with the kingdom of Gujarat.  They were unique among the many constituents of the Empire - their Tibetan aristocracy had different ideas about the oneness of divinity that they had picked up from the west[/url], but they ruled over a set of people who did not follow the Sacred Hierarchy's proscriptions nor their own. This arrangement had continued for some time, and at first, we wondered why this was accomplished.  The reasoning behind this decision was soon apparent. Gujarat, aside from the Tamils, was the one part of the empire with a sizable navy and conquests to the south; so they would be a strong countervailing force against the Tamils. Gujarat, for their part, needed a more powerful ally with neighbors such as Rajputana and Punjab.  We, the outer nobility, the hangers-on, and graduates of academies, read whatever we could find. Books were only so much cheaper now, and we could afford to buy a few. Still others rented them out for a fee or listened to them read out loud. There were religious texts, travel narratives, great histories... anything we could get our hands on, we read. The great city of Gauda had presses which printed them in Tibetan, Sanskrit, and Bengali. Soon there would be printing shops all over the empire.   We soon heard of a great war - the Jerusalem Raj against the Agathonikosids of Egypt, and heirs to the Dahnayids in Anatolia.  As entertaining as those stories were, we had more to worry about. Tamil pirates plied the routes along the Ganges delta, and the navy had to swat them away.  I had barely enough time to settle in with my own minor position in stone and materials when the news came - the Emperor was dead. Rapsel of Rajputana, that stalking horse for so many factions, had died in his sleep. The electors, by a margin of one vote, had granted the empire to the King in Lhasa. The palace was going to get a lot more crowded from now on.  My friends who had bought a place in the army were experimenting with new formations and arrangements of firearms and spears.  Many of the new arrivals were back to finding a way in Lhasa, and angry to learn that many of their old connections and networks were no good to them anymore. They'd made too many assumptions, and now the Empress in Lhasa simply ordered them about. I'm surprised there wasn't a rebellion,  not even with their taxes going up.  Events moved faster than rumors. We heard that Orissa, which once humiliated Tibet in a series of disastrous sieges in the time of King Mutik, was now a tributary vassal. I don't know how that happened, or how the Electress had done it,  but it showed how much the merchants and non-nobility were capable of influencing policy. If it was the old guard, there might be another war.  The old city-states and mercantile alliances were growing more powerful. One of the old Purgyal domains, Marathas, was cut down to almost nothing by Surat.  But I had less and less time to think about such things. I was soon ordered to begin construction of a summer palace, filled with gardens and statuary, for the residence of the royal couple - an escape from the ritual and politics at Potala. I threw myself into the work, working all hours of the day and falling into my bed when I retired. It was there that I met the empress for the first time. I was so engrossed in an argument with a goldsmith over the delivery of a shrine's decorations that I had completely failed to notice that she had entered, unannounced, to inspect the construction. Only when I realized that everyone else present was silent and bowing that I was alerted to her presence behind me, and I lost all power of speech. Her majesty's appearance and bearing were absolutely perfect, and no painter or sculptor could manage to capture a fragment of her likeness, as one can only see parts of a reflection in shattered glass. I, and the squabbling goldsmith, fell to the ground in prostration. She asked me a few questions about the building, which I had answered to the best of my ability. I was waiting for her to ask about my fight with the goldsmith, but she said nothing. Only that I got a large spot of plaster on my robes and that she'd get me a new one. I was so dazed I only barely remembered to thank her.  When I went back into the world again, I heard that the Jerusalem Raj was nearing the point of total defeat.  Any news out of the coasts was hindered by pirates.  A few more Bengali nobles were promoted to positions of authority, and they were given authority over local matters.  We needed better ships, better ways to defend our ports and merchants, and after that, still more.  Rajputana, still our allies - but the lesser partner this time, had come to court asking for assistance in a war against those states in the "pirate coast" as they were called. We agreed.  Along the way, we heard more stories of fanatical priests north of the Gulf of Kutch - stories that would presage what was to come, and even if we didn't know it at the time.  We had overprepared for our war - the enemy fleet stayed in their ports - but it was enough to show that Tibet could go west again if it so chose.  And it was there, the admirals told me, that we heard the news of Jerusalem's staggering defeat. The Anatolians had wrenched from them all of Suriya, as well as the great city of Dimashq and many of their northern ports. The Buddhists, the descendants of Agathonikos in Egypt, had taken part of the south too. We wondered then if that old empire was long gone, and if it would go the way of Jin or be carved up like a roast bird by its neighbors.  Our own armies at this time were in no major engagements, but there were some stirring speeches made - that this was no longer a time of passive acceptance, but time for Tibet again to seize the wheel of fate.  The crown prince in Lhasa was a strict and soldierly young man - he was said to first love marching around with his toy soldiers and honor guard and reenacting Tibet's greatest battles - he always imagined himself as Gyalyum the Benevolent or the Divine Lasya, of course - but he took the business of war and honor very seriously. I tended to stay away from him.  The church, at this time, grew further away from the centers of power. The nobility crowded around the seat of power, as did the merchants, but the church and its maroon-robed figures grew scarcer, further away, below even my meager station.  The war was short. There weren't so many pitched battles, but it was still enough of a success to speak out.  Stories of the benevolence and grace of the royal couple were widely known - as I was promoted to a new rank in the bureaucracy, I admit I idly thought of visiting the family more often - of hoping to make a positive impression on them. I had wanted so much at that point to gain their approval.  Laws were set down about the role of the advisory council and the parliament in the crown lands of Tibet, as well as their broad application over other sets of law. It was a rather complicated bit of work, but the fact that it was set down meant that the council and parliament were here to stay.  The fields were fertile, the people were happy. I had felt, for a time, satisfied with my own place in life.  It was at that point that I received a summons to meet Her Majesty the Empress herself. She spoke to me, almost as if a spider would speak to a fly. The emperor was there, head rested on his chin, smiling as she did all the talking.  That was how I found my way to the chambers of the great palace at the top of the world.  There was, of course, the threat of piracy,  and officials were soon convened to meet any ongoing threats.  There was much to discuss. The Thais and the Kingdom of Borneo were laying claim to distant lands further east,  to say nothing of the news of what lay further beyond. Kangxi fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jul 13, 2020 |
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Jul 13, 2020 00:39
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Europe... the savage continent. Who knows what horrors await the Ayiti?
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Jul 13, 2020 00:59
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Oh, so the Māori are colonizing Australia, are they?
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Jul 13, 2020 02:25
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I guess we're too far away from Europe to have a chance at settling it, huh? As a member of the Great Root, it saddens me to see our influence upon the court wane. While there can be no doubt that the Emperor and Empress-Consort are truly good and devout, there may some day in the future where stout moral leadership is required... and the high church stands ready to take on that duty if required.
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Jul 13, 2020 13:39
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LJN92 posted:Oh, so the Māori are colonizing Australia, are they? Not just Australia, looks like they're into Indonesia too?
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Jul 13, 2020 13:39
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I hope we can see the fruits of our labour quite soon, things seem to be going quite well and I am now worried. We even have some level of competent royalty!
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Jul 13, 2020 14:20
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LJN92 posted:Oh, so the Māori are colonizing Australia, are they?  Indeed they are, although Watjubaja is giving them a good fight. Kityungu is almost gone, and I don't know if they'll make it back. habeasdorkus posted:Not just Australia, looks like they're into Indonesia too?  Malacca has Halmahera and Ceram. Brunei has Buru, all of Timor, and Yamdena. Josef bugman posted:I hope we can see the fruits of our labour quite soon, things seem to be going quite well and I am now worried. I'm going to post an update soon - the peasants and merchants faction winning means a lot of internal investment and no offensive wars. Expect a vote soon; my update schedule has become much more inconsistent. But I'll keep going.
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Jul 15, 2020 01:42
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So we have Maori conquering Australia and pirates wiping out the Han, maritime politics are going to be complicated ITL. What has the spread of institutions been like in game? The impression I've gotten is that aside from Europe and parts of Africa, the rest of the world is relatively equal in terms of development or tech. zealouscub fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 05:53
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zealouscub posted:What has the spread of institutions been like in game? The impression I've gotten is that aside from Europe and parts of Africa, the rest of the world is relatively equal in terms of development or tech. Mostly even across much of Eurasia, although Siberia is partly behind as is Madagascar. Mesopotamia, the Ganges river delta, and southern China are slightly ahead. Parts of Anglaland (England) and Wendland (Germany/Pomerania) haven't even finished the Renaissance yet. Mali is the only place in the entire Eastern Hemisphere to have adopted Colonialism; Tibet is where the Printing Press started but it hasn't adopted it yet. Edit: Here's a map for a better look: 
Kangxi fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 22:19
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We need to get better at literacy.
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Jul 19, 2020 00:14
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Second Formal Session of the Assembly of the Elector-Kingdom of Tibet The mood is sunny in Lhasa. This and other cities of the crown lands are prosperous, and the electors of the empire have seen fit to restore the sacred authority of the imperial seat to its rightful place. The emperor and empress are well-liked, and their reputation is for benevolence and presiding over a period of general prosperity. The pre-eminence of the merchants and lower nobility means that Tibet has avoided military expansion and instead focused on internal development, which has led to higher incomes, and literacy. The religious strife of the past decade seems to have faded away for now, and the nobles are content to ignore the peasants and let them read their mystical books and lives of holy figures and the life of the great Pakmodru Tse and Gyalyum the Benevolent.  That said, there is some concern over news from abroad. Besides the great number of religious texts and manifestos that have been circulated recently, broadsheets and printed books have spread widely and told of the travels of great explorers and narrative of foreign lands, and there is a serious concern that the crown lands may soon fall behind in the absence of more established trade routes, ports, and outposts. Those who have been able to expand here, or make contact with the great empires on the other side of the world may prosper.  The Great Tibet Faction prefers that the crown lands of Tibet expand as much as possible, to the greatest extent possible. This may include punitive expeditions against major vassals within the Sacred Empire, such as the Tamils.  The Descendants, and other members of the nobility, do not agree. They would prefer for the power of the empire to be devolved to frontier nobles, and for greater autonomy for the empire's members to expand on their own. If one of the major vassals wants to expand outward, then the crown lands will aid them. Should the empire ever expand, it would not administer lands directly, but instead place them under the rule of vassals.  The Great Root faction, the clergy, prefers an expansion into the southeast, against the Bamar and Thai states, with their militant Buddhism. Once that is accomplished to a certain extent, then perhaps China would be a fertile ground for expansion.  Finally, the Middle Division are those representatives of the merchants and wealthy peasantry. They have little interest in expensive military adventures, although they would be interested in setting up colonies or outposts as Ethiopia or Tamilakam have done. This would mean taking a Colonial Ideas set when it is next available. As before, please put one of the above flags into your post to signal what faction you are now representing. This will affect Tibet's actions more generally, and what it will spend its large, but not infinite, resources on. code: And has been the case for the last century or so, there is a constant struggle between the rights and privileges of the imperial seat and its constituent parts. While the parliament that was established before still stands, there is a renewed debate over how much power it should have now that the crown lands of Tibet have been elected to administer over the whole empire once again.  A) Retain noble autonomy.  B) Concentrate power further into the hands of the emperor. As always, if you have any questions about the world, I'll answer them, but the further away they are from Tibet, the less I can tell you. Maps of the Known World      
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Jul 19, 2020 19:07
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A) Retain noble autonomy.
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Jul 19, 2020 19:13
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B to set the stage for the French Revolution of Tibet. 
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Jul 19, 2020 19:20
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B
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Jul 19, 2020 19:30
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Jul 19, 2020 21:26
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A I hope it is obvious that the traditional rights and obligations of the nobility must be defended if we are to expect any of our rights to be defended going forward. Tibet is and always has been an empire of its constituents, answerable to local and regional authorities. How could the Tibetan plateau alone and above all others be competent at governing everyone else above the traditional, local authorities who know their traditions best. Nobody is proposing that the Lord of Lumbini have authority over the people of the plateau, but we're considering the inverse? Ridiculous.
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Jul 19, 2020 21:35
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