|
Half-elves in Lord of the Rings basically had the choice of giving up their immortality to be unbound by worldly decay or living forever. I feel like it's kind of analogous to people being given the choice to get baptized? Then hobbits are basically just a different kind of human, and dwarves and ents are some separate things that nobody really knows how they work. Orcs are created by somehow corrupting elves and later men. There's also Numenoreans, who are literally some kind of superior breed of human, but through a combination of their own hubris destroying them and the decay of the world, they were destroyed. Their descendants still live a bit longer than normal humans though. I feel like it's only natural that if you had a bunch of different sentient races bumping around for all of them to be able to interbreed and have any kind of combination of their parents' attributes or even some new mutation. Most pulp fantasy or sci-fi tends to make the same basic assumption. But then if you assume that, it'd be only natural that unless the populations have been geographically or politically isolated until the present of the setting, there would've been plenty of intermingling of populations in the history, and then I don't really know anything about the science of the genetic dissemination of traits over centuries, and it all gets fuzzy. Maybe there would be new "races" developing from unique circumstances? I do remember a thing where the area next to the Shire was known to have men and hobbits intermixing, maybe more stuff like that? There's interesting stories to be told, but it all gets confusing. There's some criticism you could make about how many apparent ethnostates there are in fantasy, but then Star Trek has a similar problem. If you decide that different races can't interbreed despite otherwise intermingling in every other way, then you have a weird thing where if somebody wants to have kids someday, they either gotta arrange a donor or decide not to mix. That sort of unbreachable difference makes more sense if the different races are more truly alien to eachother, which is what Glorantha does. Last time I tried writing fantasy, I was planning to have fantasy races emulating real-world cultures, but that petered out and I decided to just have them all be humans instead of making the steppe nomads into orcs. It gets confusing. Drakyn posted:Incidentally to the topic of 'transferring over' and quasi-infamously, there were stormfront posts about how nazis enjoy D&D as an introductory tool for babby's first race psuedoscience. That's sad, but it's also absolutely unavoidable. I know that one of the things that was happening in Germany with the formation of nazism was nazis going through children's stories trying to craft their social narrative out of simpler things. One of the reasons nazis were dismissed back in the day was because they seemed just like weird obsessed dorks before things started getting violent. There's also a thing where if oppression is maintained on the basis of inherent inferiority, it can create the statistics to demonstrate that with social pressure and creating unsafe conditions. One of these links is much more intense example than the other. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/07/22/487069271/episode-576-when-women-stopped-coding https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/876097416/patent-racism
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 20:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 00:45 |
|
|
Drakyn posted:We can narrow down whatever framing we want for Precisely Why The Story Says Redcloak Is The Villain all day, but nobody actually disagrees that he's portrayed as a villain - sympathetic, but a villain - and I'm saying that's a poo poo position to put the one guy in your plot who's openly aware and angry that a ton of the groundwork for D&D is happy racism fun times. That Redcloak is right is the primary resort by which he is a sympathetic villain. If you want a story in which the goblins are the protagonists instead of the villain, then Ellipsis has got you covered.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 21:32
|
|
|
Drakyn posted:Yeah, good point, maybe Rich shouldn't have written the guy struggling against D&D being a giant pile of racism as 'operating in bad faith on a moral level.' When faced with the fact that the world is intrinsically built upon happy racism fun times, being a villain becomes an ethical choice.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 21:34
|
|
|
Redcloak is bigger on the sunk cost fallacy than anything else, I think. He's 100% stuck on Xykon not so much because he really think Xykon is right, but because if he bails on Xykon now then every mistake he made sticking with Xykon was worth it. To a less immediate extent he's that way with the Plan, although he's only just about to see an alternate choice for the first time in his life so we'll see how that goes.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 21:40
|
|
|
Shugojin posted:To a less immediate extent he's that way with the Plan, although he's only just about to see an alternate choice for the first time in his life so we'll see how that goes. "Force the gods to recognize The Dark One," isn't an alternative to the plan, it's just the plan.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 22:05
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:"Force the gods to recognize The Dark One," isn't an alternative to the plan, it's just the plan. Yeah I should clarify a bit. I mean the Plan as in the version that requires an arcane spellcaster and the Gates, which will be thrown for a bit of a loop by learning that the Dark One is a lot more special than he realized. He doesn't hold all the cards though since he would almost certainly not make it to the next world and so it's a mutual aid thing. I think that Thor and Loki and their allies will be happy to give ground to the Dark One's demands in exchange for his help in sealing the Snarl but there are other gods around who will want to push him with "you won't make it to the next world". It's gonna be neat and I want more strips.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2020 22:12
|
|
|
Drakyn posted:Yeah, good point, maybe Rich shouldn't have written the guy struggling against D&D being a giant pile of racism as 'operating in bad faith on a moral level.' I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think "precisely why the story says Redcloak is the villain" is actually extremely important. If the story were saying that Redcloak is the villain because he's "well-intentioned but too extreme" like you said earlier, that would be a bad reason, because it would imply that the best resolution to racism is "make moderate changes that don't rock the boat too much." That would be a really bad moral lesson to take away! But I think the reason that the story is actually giving us is something like "Redcloak's ideals are right and his end goal is just, he's just letting his bad faith personal desire to avoid feeling bad lead him away from that good outcome." I think that's a good reason because it's imparting the right moral lesson - "be 100% against racism, and also try not to let your personal blind spots lead you to build up new systems of oppression as you tear down the old one." I guess on a more fundamental level, I think that Redcloak being the only one who's actively mad about racism is a deliberate narrative choice to try and get readers to adopt his worldview. The median imagined reader of this strip is probably a white nerd who's strongly invested in D&D, right? Obviously other people read it, but (especially back in 2003 or whatever) D&D was a very white-coded activity with historical associations with racism (like that Stormfront post said). I think Redcloak is deliberately there to ease people into thinking about systemic racism. He's a "bad guy" so the reader doesn't feel like his perspective is being shoved down their throat, and by the same token marginalized nerds like to identify with the "bad guy." Redcloak provides a safe excuse to start thinking about racism in a way that doesn't immediately involve any real-world implications. And look at his character progression - at the beginning of the story he's a nebbish who gets bullied by Xykon, but as time goes on he gets more competent/we realize that he's more on the ball than he lets on. I think this also makes him attractive as a reader identification character. Redcloak's political beliefs are consistently presented in a sympathetic fashion - he's not a villain because of them, he's a villain because of his personal problems. The personality problems are the thing holding him back from being a good guy. This is largely a story about people overcoming their personal problems (see: every member of the Order), and my guess is that's going to happen with Redcloak too. Once that happens, he stops being a villain. That kind of face turn can be extremely satisfying in terms of dramatic catharsis (Zuko or Darth Vader). And then the surge of positive emotion from the dramatic catharsis leads the audience to see the character in a new light in a way that underlines the thematic meaning of the story (Zuko finally finds his sense of honor... within himself, Vader learns how to harness emotion in a positive sense... with love instead of anger). I think that's the function of Redcloak within the story structure - when he dramatically realizes how to be a good guy, the point of that is to get the audience (of white nerds who don't want to think about D&D racism) to have a similar breakthrough and realize that they should actually be anti-racists. I mean, this whole last paragraph is just me making assumptions based on the story structure up to this point that could totally be wrong. But if we learn one thing from Elan, shouldn't it be that story structure is really important?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 05:24
|
|
|
I hope Rich is okay. This Rich, not that *other* one.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 12:18
|
|
|
One thing that I really hope gets addressed even though I have no idea how it would be is (O-Chul book spoilers) that Redcloak’s conquest of Azure City would not have happened without O-Chul. He picked up that massive hobgoblin army at the start of Paladin Blues, which we now learned would have been genocided by the Sapphire Guard, had O-Chul not stepped in and risked his life to save them. He also acted personally and inspired Hinjo to reform the Sapphire Guard. O-Chul is the platonic ideal of being not racist and not evil and Redcloak owes him everything, but he also wears the uniform of those who murdered Redcloak’s entire family and tribe. I have no idea how all of this can come to light in a meaningful way, but I also don’t see how Redcloak’s redemption can happen without addressing that he tortured his truest unlikely ally for nearly a year just to keep Xykon in check.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 12:36
|
|
|
that's an amazing insight, i literally just read HTPGHS (which is great) and it hadn't occurred to me. that's completely based on O'chuls character too, so having him in the mix is vital.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 12:41
|
|
|
Book 7 is going to take a literal decade.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 16:06
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Book 7 is going to take a literal decade. You're still gonna complain when it's over
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 16:29
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Book 7 is going to take a literal decade. That's very optimistic. Completely out of the rear end prediction: Vaarsuvius will replace Xykon as the arcane caster of a modified rift ritual and the demons will time them out at a crucial point, leading to unforeseen consequences.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 16:36
|
|
|
Book Six took nearly six years (March '14 to December '19). There's no reason to believe that Book Seven will be too much slower or very much longer. Call it six and a half to seven years tops.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 17:09
|
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Book 7 is going to take a literal decade. This post was the first one that appeared after I had closed the browser tab for the ASOIAF thread and I was very confused for a second.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 17:28
|
|
|
Book 7 of ASOIAF will also not be finished in the next decade.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 17:32
|
|
|
Okay, see, that one I agree with.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 17:33
|
|
ultrafilter posted:Book 7 of ASOIAF will also not be finished
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 17:35
|
|
|
jng2058 posted:There's no reason to believe that Book Seven will be too much slower or very much longer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 19:11
|
|
|
Daikloktos posted:Are you not aware this is the last one? So what? Just because it's last means it's suddenly going to be triple size or something? Setting aside Book One (~120 strips), which transitioned from joke-a-day to plotted, most of the books have been within shouting distance of each other in length. Books Two and Three were ~180, Book Four ~220, Book Six ~240. The only one that broke the bank was Five at ~280. So let's say he goes crazy with the ending and does ~300. At fifty strips a year, that's six years. Let's say he goes full out, no holds barred and goes ~350! That's seven years. Which is what I just said. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 20:00
|
|
|
Rich has apparently outlined out the story pretty thoroughly, so I'd be surprised if the last book was significantly bigger than the previous ones.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 20:20
|
|
|
Sorry if my brevity came across as dickishness! Funny that I wanted to be pedantic over like, two extra years
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
AnoHito posted:Rich has apparently outlined out the story pretty thoroughly, so I'd be surprised if the last book was significantly bigger than the previous ones. Imagine that Xykon's astral fortress is the planet Namek... *bricked*
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 21:54
|
|
|
I think it would be interesting if Redcloak was allowed redemption considering most similar events in the story so far have had the character in question fail it one way or another. Therkla, Miko, Crystal, Eugene, Vaarsuvius (temporarily), Redcloak himself in Start of Darkness, and I'm sure others for example.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 23:26
|
|
|
XkyRauh posted:Imagine that Xykon's astral fortress is the planet Namek... *bricked* See you in the epilogue! Except... this book... you. close up of Belkar's face
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 23:27
|
|
|
Acerbatus posted:I think it would be interesting if Redcloak was allowed redemption considering most similar events in the story so far have had the character in question fail it one way or another. Bellar, Vaarsuvius, and Redcloak are all characters in search of redemption and I feel like Redcloak is going to be the one to fail.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 23:28
|
|
|
Soup du Jour posted:Bellar, Vaarsuvius, and Redcloak are all characters in search of redemption and I feel like Redcloak is going to be the one to fail. I can't think of a satisfying outcome to the story where goblins continue to be shafted. Failing to have a redemption arc but still getting what he wants? That's got to require him giving up everything else he believes in. Only he doesn't believe in anything else. I don't see how it could happen
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 23:35
|
|
|
Redcloak is, ultimately, pursuing the removal of "designated evil" from goblinkind. It may not be his explicit goal, but it's a necessary part of the goblins being treated as real people. Whether some divine intervention will suddenly grant all the goblins empathy for other lives, or whether it will take individual efforts on all of their parts to become better people and part of their world's society, they will have to shed the role of monsters. And to make that a success, the goblins cannot be following an evil leader, which Redcloak absolutely is - for all that his end goal is a good one (both in the D&D sense by replacing Evil things in the world with Good or Neutral ones, and the real moral sense by pursuing emancipation) and much of the harm he has done is in service of that greater good, he also proudly enjoys cruelty for its own sake as long as it isn't against the people he relates to. So, if Redcloak is to see his ambitions realised, he is going to have to do one of two things - either find a way to redeem himself, atone for his past cruelties and find a new way of conducting his life, or abandon his position as the leader of goblinkind as the people he worked so hard to save pursue a path that he could never follow. Both are redemptions of a sort, although the latter feels more realistic in story terms.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2020 23:56
|
|
|
I feel like that's a stretch, 99% of leaders in real life are various shades of evil. Redcloak sits somewhere between various modern recent revolutionaries.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 00:11
|
|
|
Any redemption for Redcloak will be ultimately unsatisfying because his cause is too transparently just.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 00:38
|
|
|
Tenebrais posted:some divine intervention will suddenly grant all the goblins empathy for other lives is there anything in the strip that suggests they don't have this? cf the paladins slaughtering the village at the beginning of start of darkness.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 00:45
|
|
|
Redcloak's story might be massively suffering from being conceived over a decade ago, and I hope it doesn't land kind of sour in a cultural context one never anticipated moving so far
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 00:52
|
|
|
I feel like there was some book or other webcomic whether the author had a tongue in cheek complaint about how far things have moved since they first started writing. I know Asimov had a forward in one of his Foundation books about how the science mistakes were because new discoveries hadn't happened yet when he first started writing and joked about that, but that's a different category.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 01:24
|
|
|
I know that Rich has discussed that in the notes to at least one book.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 02:04
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I feel like there was some book or other webcomic whether the author had a tongue in cheek complaint about how far things have moved since they first started writing. I know Asimov had a forward in one of his Foundation books about how the science mistakes were because new discoveries hadn't happened yet when he first started writing and joked about that, but that's a different category. Charlie Stross has been complaining about this with regards to near future British politics for a few years.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 02:13
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:is there anything in the strip that suggests they don't have this? cf the paladins slaughtering the village at the beginning of start of darkness. I mean, there was the whole slavery bit and how they whip the elderly because it's hilarious to watch them fall over.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 03:41
|
|
|
Johnny Aztec posted:I mean, there was the whole slavery bit and how they whip the elderly because it's hilarious to watch them fall over. oh yeah, fair call.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 03:51
|
|
|
I think the setup is the gods stacked the deck by putting goblins (and presumably a bunch of other monstrous races) in economic conditions that would encourage them to become evil.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 04:04
|
|
|
Ah, it's economic anxiety.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 04:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 00:45 |
|
|
sebmojo posted:oh yeah, fair call. I mean......They haven't been any more, or less, "evil" than most Human civilizations through history. so :\ Not gonna really mark that too hard agaisnt Goblins as a whole, since slavery has been present, in one form or another, in most civs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 30, 2020 04:19
|
|