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If you're treating "getting feedback from Trans people on your trans character" and "Writing them" as 2 seperate stages that don't constantly feed into eachother, you are doing them a disservice.
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Jul 2, 2020 19:52
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Stormgale posted:If you're treating "getting feedback from Trans people on your trans character" and "Writing them" as 2 seperate stages that don't constantly feed into eachother, you are doing them a disservice. Do you actually feel that Lev is a poorly-written trans character?
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Jul 2, 2020 19:54
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Perfectly Safe posted:Do you actually feel that Lev is a poorly-written trans character? I feel in Abstract Lev is a fine character, but in the wider context of how trans people are written in media both the outing of his backstory without his consent and another trans suffering story with religious subtext is not necessary or insightful. Or, to be slightly more shitposty from one of my trans friends: "Truly nobody before Neil Druckmann has written a queer person with a religious upbringing that rejects them. Thank you for this fresh perspective, pretentious cis man." Stormgale fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 2, 2020 |
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Jul 2, 2020 19:56
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I'm usually pretty pessimistic about trans portrayals in video games as let's face it, most devs are going to gently caress it up but I was impressed with ND - especially as they made sure to cast a trans actor as Lev's voice/mocap actor
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Jul 2, 2020 19:57
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Yea, this came up in the other thread and my read was:Akapursch posted:I think the valid criticism is more of a meta-commentary on the representation of trans characters in media and the focus of conflict almost always revolving around their "trans-ness", rather than it being just another aspect of their character. I think those complaining are just fed up with this trend, as they wish to be seen as more than just their struggle. Kinda like how we're at the stage now where the characters of Jessie, Yara and Lev are written into a story where their Asian heritage is completely incidental (something that in the 80s/90s, would have been very rare, with the chances of their "exotic orientalism" playing a large part in their stories or informing their behaviour to a large degree). It betrays how society views the group in question. It's not neccessarily malicious, but it's reductive and becomes insulting after a while (especially from creative leads outside of the minority group, despite how much "consultation" they engage in to placate liberal sensibilities).
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Jul 2, 2020 20:16
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It has come up a few times, but according to a number of trans people who have chimed in on it, that is exactly the problem. In one sense he's a perfectly okay character, but in a different sense he's just another kind of stereotype.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:28
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Would it have worked better if he was ostracised by the Seraphites for another reason and also happened to be trans - but that would be something the player could infer rather than be told?
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Jul 2, 2020 20:36
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Necrothatcher posted:Would it have worked better if he was ostracised by the Seraphites for another reason and also happened to be trans - but that would be something the player could infer rather than be told? From what I've heard from trans people they'd rather just have a character who happens to be trans the same way they happen to be cis/white/gay etc. Like make Owen trans but don't centre his development about how difficult it makes his life.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:37
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Necrothatcher posted:Would it have worked better if he was ostracised by the Seraphites for another reason and also happened to be trans - but that would be something the player could infer rather than be told? Yes, in my personal opinion. There are enough creepy and shocking things that can drive him from the seraphites, and especially the aftermath of him going home seems like jabbing that knife in to twist. Again, I want to stress part of this is the wider media landscape this is adding to. If it was common for trans characters to be the doom guy, or funny, or silly, i'd be way more comfortable with Lev as is. It's just in this landscape he's another of the same note.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:39
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Akapursch posted:Kinda like how we're at the stage now where the characters of Jessie, Yara and Lev are written into a story where their Asian heritage is completely incidental (something that in the 80s/90s, would have been very rare, with the chances of their "exotic orientalism" playing a large part in their stories or informing their behaviour to a large degree). It betrays how society views the group in question. It's not neccessarily malicious, but it's reductive and becomes insulting after a while (especially from creative leads outside of the minority group, despite how much "consultation" they engage in to placate liberal sensibilities). We're slowly getting to the point where media will actually portray homosexual relationships with all the scenes of joy you get in portrayals of straight relationships. Sometimes they'll even be written from the experiences of queer people and not just be straight relationships with the genders altered. Being trans isn't constant torment. There's joy to finding yourself, there's joy to casting off the shackles that have bound you your whole life, there's joy to discarding the weighted training clothes you've been wearing. I didn't accept myself as trans until I read other trans people on these forums and elsewhere sharing their personal stories of those and other joys because the media sure didn't tell them. And honestly I do not want to see a single story about trans misery in fiction until telling the happy parts becomes commonplace too.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:46
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stev posted:From what I've heard from trans people they'd rather just have a character who happens to be trans the same way they happen to be cis/white/gay etc. Like make Owen trans but don't centre his development about how difficult it makes his life. I don't think you can make any of the other characters trans as they pretty much all die - and violently murdering the game's only trans character is not going to go down well
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Jul 2, 2020 20:46
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Threep posted:It's this but it's not only this. This is what I said but way more eloquent so I'm highlighting it.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:47
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Threep posted:It's this but it's not only this. Yea, this covers an important aspect that I completely missed. Good post.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:50
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Stormgale posted:Yes, in my personal opinion. There are enough creepy and shocking things that can drive him from the seraphites, and especially the aftermath of him going home seems like jabbing that knife in to twist. So, here's how I'm reading it, tell me how bad a take this is. Basically, being a trans character in a story shouldn't completely dominate every aspect of their interactions with people like being pregnant should right?
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Jul 2, 2020 20:52
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RareAcumen posted:So, here's how I'm reading it, tell me how bad a take this is.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:56
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Stormgale posted:I feel in Abstract Lev is a fine character, but in the wider context of how trans people are written in media both the outing of his backstory without his consent and another trans suffering story with religious subtext is not necessary or insightful. Right, ok. The impression that I'd had was that, while there were some, y'know, observations (couple of people mentioned the "mired in tragedy" thing - nobody on my grapevine specifically mentioned religion but I've no doubt that that can be a thing too) he was broadly well received and was seen mostly as a fairly positive representation in a medium that really struggles with things that aren't explosions. The reason I asked is because this is a fairly negative interpretation of what Druckmann said over a character that ended up not, to my understanding, being the sort of disaster1 that they'd have produced if they'd ignore all consultation. Honestly, the thing that stuck out to me as terrible character treatment (and I'm a cis male so it took me absolutely loving ages to realise Lev was trans at all, so anything other issues around that flew completely over my head at the time) was that he has to kill his own mother and then watches his sister die and is given no time to be a character who's lost his mother and sister - he's straight in there being Abby's voice of reason when she'd lost her own. 1. Not that it's relevant to the matter at hand, but in my playthrough at one point I felt like I'd summoned Tarkus because Lev was kicking so much rear end that I didn't really have to do very much. Wasn't standing in the way like Dina's AI. That's not a wall, Dina. You're standing with your back to an open doorway. Thank god you're funny, is all I can say.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:11
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Cardiovorax posted:It's kind of that, but with a wider context. It's that being trans in pop culture comes in one of two flavours: misery lightning rod or bigoted parody. It's never just a trait that's there, but never just as a trait that's there. If a person is trans, they're either suffering for it or being mocked for it. Yeah, that part's been hammered home very well by now.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:14
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Perfectly Safe posted:Right, ok. The impression that I'd had was that, while there were some, y'know, observations (couple of people mentioned the "mired in tragedy" thing - nobody on my grapevine specifically mentioned religion but I've no doubt that that can be a thing too) he was broadly well received and was seen mostly as a fairly positive representation in a medium that really struggles with things that aren't explosions. Your point at the end is also important. I am giving Druckman a negative reading because, especially the talk about a "Unique Perspective" when "Religious queer person has to deal with their cultures hatred of them" isn't new, or innovative, it's 1 of the 3 variations of LGBT suffering that's offered up. I am harsher on a game I consider a 7/10 because it's trying so hard to have a message, which means I will judge it harsher especially because they are patting themselves on the back for representation.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:20
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Stormgale posted:I am harsher on a game I consider a 7/10 because it's trying so hard to have a message, which means I will judge it harsher especially because they are patting themselves on the back for representation.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:23
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Maybe it would have been better if Lev wasn't trans at all. I mean, whether the text of the game stated Lev being trans was the reason for him being ostracised from a misogynist religious community or not, you have to figure that a lot of players would conclude that was the case.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:34
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Another thing I am gonna call out in this vein, is the whole subplot with the angry old white guy in Jackson. What does him using a slur really add?
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Jul 2, 2020 21:51
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Cardiovorax posted:Which they already have very little reason to do, because as LGBT representation goes, 'a couple of attractive young lesbian women' is as non-daring as it gets. A large number of the people who bought the game and still complained about it just straight-out would have refused to touch it at all if the couple had been young men instead, for example. They really didn't risk much here. Yeah, I mostly missed out on all of the pre-release controversy but, as it turns out, the beknuckled of the world got themselves into a lather over a muscular woman rather than either a lesbian couple or a trans character anyway. It does seem to indicate that you might as well go in for a pound on this stuff; the fuckwits can only really get worked up about one thing at a time anyway, and the only harm that actually appears to have been done is a bit of a dip in metacritic user reviews with no corresponding impact on sales. On the other hand, I do think that they do deserve a little bit of credit - the first people on the dancefloor are the first people on the dancefloor. It doesn't matter if they're poo poo at dancing. As soon as they're there, the dancefloor starts to fill up.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:58
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Perfectly Safe posted:On the other hand, I do think that they do deserve a little bit of credit - the first people on the dancefloor are the first people on the dancefloor. It doesn't matter if they're poo poo at dancing. As soon as they're there, the dancefloor starts to fill up. Except this isn't the first, even if you limit it to AAA space for LGBT rep. So It will be judged based upon how it compares to what has come before and how (or if) it takes another step forward.
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Jul 2, 2020 22:12
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Cardiovorax posted:It has come up a few times, but according to a number of trans people who have chimed in on it, that is exactly the problem. In one sense he's a perfectly okay character, but in a different sense he's just another kind of stereotype. I mean you can easily reduce every character in The Last of Us to a single stereotype or their most basic contributions to the plot. I don’t think it’s fair to unnecessarily highlight one character’s life as being miserable when literally every character in the game is brutalized, tortured or murdered. Also the reason that gay or Asian people have finally gotten to the point that those can just be character traits that don’t directly inform the plot is only because there were enough cultural touchstones about being Gay or Asian that it became more mainstream. The only way for Trans characters to become mainstream enough that someone can be just be Trans and not have it come up in the story is for more games and movies to try and tell enough stories with Trans characters about trans issues. There’s no world were suddenly fully realized Trans characters just spring to life without a million little narratives like Lev building a foundation. I am speaking from own experience as a bisexual playing this game. 10 years ago, the main character’s lesbian girlfriend being impregnated by their childhood friend would’ve been the central tennet of the plot and probably the main reason the game was getting review bombed. Now, in 2020, that particular plot point (inter-racial love child being raised by two women) isn’t even a blip. Dina is incredible representation for us, and even she comes off as a little tropey for us. Lev is a good character, written and acted very well, and there WILL be Trans people who identify with him, and his struggle to be himself, and the sacrifices he made to get there. There are gamers out there whose literal first experience with Trans narratives will be Lev, and his depiction in this game is one of courage and triumphing over adversity. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jul 2, 2020 |
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Jul 2, 2020 22:19
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the Jackson homophobe existed to set up misdirection about why there was tension between Ellie and Joel at the beginning of the game
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Jul 2, 2020 22:19
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It might be the first where a homosexual relationship plays such a front-and-center protagonist role, or at least I can't think of another one.Bust Rodd posted:I am speaking from own experience as a bisexual playing this game.
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Jul 2, 2020 22:23
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Bust Rodd posted:I mean you can easily reduce every character in The Last of Us to a single stereotype or their most basic contributions to the plot. I don’t think it’s fair to unnecessarily highlight one character’s life as being miserable when literally every character in the game is brutalized, tortured or murdered. "There’s no world were suddenly fully realized Trans characters just spring to life without a million little narratives like Lev building a foundation." They exist, their being written by trans people in Indie games about our experiences and Lives. I'm also not sure "you have to have bad representation to get good rep, so you can't call it bad rep" is really the silver bullet argument here. Also: The world sucks so everyones lives sucks. Yes, that is the world that this is set in, and it's a choice to put a trans character in there and also center their suffering around their transness. Not only is this the "Quiet has a reason to be wearing a bikini honest" territory but also i've specifically called out instances where they didn't have a reason to do the things they did above even in a crappy world. Fellatio del Toro posted:the Jackson homophobe existed to set up misdirection about why there was tension between Ellie and Joel at the beginning of the game Sure but why does he need to be a Homophobe?
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Jul 2, 2020 22:30
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Stormgale posted:Sure but why does he need to be a Homophobe? right, I meant to imply its bad because it doesn't serve any purpose other than as a means to set up some unrelated narrative suspense
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Jul 2, 2020 22:43
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Fellatio del Toro posted:right, I meant to imply its bad because it doesn't serve any purpose other than as a means to set up some unrelated narrative suspense Sorry Just making sure!
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Jul 2, 2020 22:44
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Stormgale posted:Except this isn't the first, even if you limit it to AAA space for LGBT rep. So It will be judged based upon how it compares to what has come before and how (or if) it takes another step forward. No, it's not the first, but we're also not at the point at which LGBTQ characters are just in games without it being a thing. We're still at the stage at which the first people are getting on the dancefloor. It is one of the first (I think - I have not played all of the games, though not for want of trying) that has LGBT representation in the main cast (and as an actual real thing rather than an abstract concept). And it's not really a big deal or a defining feature of the characters or story - or, more to the point, the fact of the relationship is the important thing rather than its nature. Bust Rodd posted:I mean you can easily reduce every character in The Last of Us to a single stereotype or their most basic contributions to the plot. I don’t think it’s fair to unnecessarily highlight one character’s life as being miserable when literally every character in the game is brutalized, tortured or murdered. Perfectly Safe fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 2, 2020 |
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Jul 2, 2020 22:48
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Abby could be interpreted as trans or as an intersex woman given her character design and how quickly she catches on with Lev and knows not to prod about the Seraphites deadnaming him.
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Jul 2, 2020 23:09
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I think it's better to have a woman who just buff because women can be buff rather because it fulfils some kind of stereotype.
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Jul 2, 2020 23:20
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I never noticed it as a possibility until it was pointed out to me and it’s never addressed in game so I guess even if she is it raises the question of whether it even counts as ‘representation’. 
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Jul 2, 2020 23:32
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Just finished the game. Hadn't seen any of the leaks. Critics loved it, losers review bombed it, but what problems do other people have with it? I think I saw some people saying it's too violent and you don't get to decide otherwise? I don't understand that. It's not an RPG. You're playing out the characters' experience. I thought it was super gripping. The world is so detailed and the production was insane.
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Jul 3, 2020 00:09
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We see Abby as a teenager - her "present day" build is indicative of the fact that she's been obsessively working out.
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Jul 3, 2020 00:11
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KingKapalone posted:Just finished the game. Hadn't seen any of the leaks. Critics loved it, losers review bombed it, but what problems do other people have with it? I think I saw some people saying it's too violent and you don't get to decide otherwise? I don't understand that. It's not an RPG. You're playing out the characters' experience. I thought it was super gripping. The world is so detailed and the production was insane. My main beef was that when the big switcheroo happens you have to be in a certain place emotionally because otherwise it doesn't work out and feels wrong in a way that sort of colours your enjoyment of the whole game (I didn't need to be told that Abby was a human being and that whole early section felt tiresome and insulting, but people who were hard on the other side of the tightrope had a rough time for their own reasons). What's really annoying about this is that it's just based on the person playing and how they were feeling - people who did have the intended experience, who were on the emotional tightrope (tightrope's unfair. It's wider than a tightrope. Gangplank. Emotional gangplank) just had a much better time with the whole game and probably aren't in a position to ever understand what not being on the gangplope was like. It sometimes felt like it didn't know whether it was a classic revenge western or something else. The whole Ellie section felt really ill-considered from a strategic perspective (you're just going to fight your way through this whole place, yeah?). The FINAL BOSS FIGHT felt like a betrayal of everything that the game had been trying to do, reducing it down to an 80s tough guy movie scene rather than a meaningful concluding episode. Some of the pacing was off, some sections just felt tiresome. On the other hand, amazing game for lots of reasons, fantastic technical accomplishment, breathtaking level & environmental design, gameplay was fine (I don't like the mechanics of these games but that's just me and I don't count it against the game - certainly a lot smoother than its predecessor), admirable acting, script was very frequently very good (the banter was better than the drama, tbh). Characters were mostly a tad underdeveloped but good (apart from Tommy. Make your mind up mate, seriously. Oh, and you are a bad uncle. A really bad uncle). I wish they'd told a different story for this game but they definitely tried to tell a thrilling story. Incidentally, I sort of feel like the way that game criticism is done doesn't work for this sort of game. Game critics generally don't care much about story when evaluating a game. It absolutely deserved the 10s by the criteria that game critics use but it's not super-informative about this particular game. Much more useful than the user review though. "0/5 had a muscular woman, and she wouldn't ever have sex with me either because I'm awful". Interestingly, the reviews on playstation store are really good, because you can only review the game if you actually bought it.
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Jul 3, 2020 00:40
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KingKapalone posted:Just finished the game. Hadn't seen any of the leaks. Critics loved it, losers review bombed it, but what problems do other people have with it? I think I saw some people saying it's too violent and you don't get to decide otherwise? I don't understand that. It's not an RPG. You're playing out the characters' experience. I thought it was super gripping. The world is so detailed and the production was insane. The main criticisms that I've noticed on different social media platforms: 1) It's not Choose Your Own Adventure (this one you mentioned) 2) It has a LIBERAL AGENDA 3) It's condescending, everybody already knows that revenge is bad The first two don't make any sense at all. As for the third, I never felt like the game was trying to teach me any lessons regarding revenge or empathy - it just felt like the game was "filling in blanks" in the story, in a non-linear order that made sense to me cinematically, so I honestly don't get the "it's condescending" thing either. A big part of the negativity is probably just due to leaks, and also how early negative review-bombers (who realistically definitely had not played the game yet) reached some critical mass and started influencing other players and even youtubers. Literally every single person who I know that went in blind (no leaks, no reviews before playing the game) thought that the game was amazing - myself included.
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Jul 3, 2020 01:04
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The Abby segment succeeded in getting me to empathize with her, but as endearing as her interactions with the scar kids were, she's just not as interesting of a character as Ellie is and I spent all the time I played as her wishing I was playing as Ellie instead. But I was primed to dislike her because I had read about the character switch beforehand and knew from the start that she was the antagonist.Perfectly Safe posted:On the other hand, amazing game for lots of reasons, fantastic technical accomplishment, breathtaking level & environmental design, gameplay was fine (I don't like the mechanics of these games but that's just me and I don't count it against the game - certainly a lot smoother than its predecessor), admirable acting, script was very frequently very good (the banter was better than the drama, tbh). Characters were mostly a tad underdeveloped but good (apart from Tommy. Make your mind up mate, seriously. Oh, and you are a bad uncle. A really bad uncle). I wish they'd told a different story for this game but they definitely tried to tell a thrilling story. I'm in a similar place with it. It was definitely a fantastic game in most aspects and I think the story was well executed in its details despite being conceptually flawed. The Santa Barbara sequence specifically feels like Ellie loving up and having to learn the same lesson over again, the same lesson that had already been hammered in to the player repeatedly through the course of the game. It parallels Abby's sequence at the start of the game too closely and feels disconnected by the change of setting; it would have been better to have tied the final resolution of the Ellie-Abby feud into the climax of the conflict between the Scars and WLF instead. sunaurus posted:1) It's not Choose Your Own Adventure (this one you mentioned) Somewhat related, there's the "Ellie's choices on her revenge mission felt out of character to me, because I like Ellie and didn't want her to do those things". But her decisions seem entirely in character for an already traumatized 18-year-old who watched her father figure be brutally murdered in front of her. Fallen Hamprince fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jul 3, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 01:09
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the critics who have been more negative toward the game are largely at places that have stopped giving numbered scores, which means that metacritic ratings are increasingly skewed toward outlets that review games on more traditional and rudimentary criteria which frankly Naughty Dog is still fuckin excellent at also important to reiterate that you can like a game and also be critical of it. I enjoyed the game a lot for the most part even if I have some major issues with large parts of the story I will defer to some excerpts from Rob Zacny who is a much better writer than me: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxqnxy/last-of-us-part-2-review quote:It doesn’t take long to make crystal clear that our heroes’ revenge stories are making them the villains in other people’s narratives. Even before it begins trying to humanize the people you are busy killing, The Last of Us 2 is a game of squalid cruelty. It’s not just the fact that you torture and kill people even as they plead with you to spare them, or the incredibly detailed destruction of faces and bodies that happens with shocking regularity throughout this game. It is also the growing lack of justification. Nobody ever reconsiders their quest for vengeance. Everyone acts under a kind of vindictive compulsion that goes little remarked and unexamined. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/jgxjxx/problems-with-last-of-us-part-2-ending quote:When we see the full scene, we learn Ellie visited Joel the night before he died and admitted that she would never be able to forgive Joel for the choice he made to “rescue” her from the Fireflies… but that she’d like to work on moving past it, and see if their relationship could be repaired. quote:It is remarkable how quickly this part of the story unfolds given the leisurely pacing of other parts of The Last of Us Part 2. Dina goes from “come back to bed” to “I won't go through this again” in seconds. This was a trick employed in the first game as well: Joel had no time to come to terms with the Fireflies’ sacrifice of Ellie. She was under the knife, and he had minutes to react. So all the things that would make sense of people to do in that situation, there was no time to consider. Joel’s decision was “Fatherhood or the World” and the rest of the game was a murderous sprint. quote:Ellie was sad and angry for reasons that were sympathetic in the immediate aftermath of the trauma of Joel’s death, but by the time she’s trying to drown Abby in the Pacific, she’s spent half the game shambling toward a bleak fate that could have been avoided with a modicum of introspection or awareness. Why Ellie was incapable of that, why it took losing everything for her to see past her despair at witnessing Joel’s death, why she was willing to choose evil rather than acceptance, might have made for an interesting character study. But The Last of Us Part 2 instead serves up a restatement of its basic premise as an endgame revelation. At the start we suspect that she’s furious at the death of a beloved father figure with whom she had a difficult relationship and by the end we’re sure of it.
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Jul 3, 2020 01:50
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Fellatio del Toro posted:the critics who have been more negative toward the game are largely at places that have stopped giving numbered scores, which means that metacritic ratings are increasingly skewed toward outlets that review games on more traditional and rudimentary criteria which frankly Naughty Dog is still fuckin excellent at All of these criticisms ring incredibly hollow and come across to me as a nerd culture writer complaining that the characters don't act with the august detachment and rationalism that he surely would be capable of were he in their place. quote:With the exception of a couple conversations where she’s evasive with Dina and Jessie, she’s never forced to weigh what she knows about Joel against the things she’s doing to avenge him. This paragraph in particular is written like someone trying to understand grief at a person's death as a function of a video game karma scale in which Ellie should feel no grief, because her anger at her for saving him should cancel out any emotional attachment she has to him. But emotional reality is precisely the opposite; having unresolved tensions with a loved one makes losing them more painful, not less. The rift in Ellie and Joel's relationship is not a mitigating factor, it is the central driving factor in her actions throughout the game. After Joel's death, all of Ellie's anger at Joel and associated survivor guilt are displaced onto a perceived need for revenge; when Ellie finally confronts these feelings that need evaporates.
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Jul 3, 2020 02:54
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