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Finding feet sexy is generally about as "weird" in 2020 as preferring blondes or whatever. We're talking about a module that features inflating a person and then gang-raping them to death, which I don't think falls under the "no kink shame" protections.
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Jul 2, 2020 18:58
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Zereth posted:So are you saying that every viewer of a Tarantino movie consented to be involved with his foot fetish? I mean I guess not, but as someone who doesn't even have a fetish for feet who cares. I don't view a foot fetish as some deviant behavior like you do I suppose. 
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Jul 2, 2020 18:59
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moths posted:Finding feet sexy is generally about as "weird" in 2020 as preferring blondes or whatever. Inflating a person very weird and specific but sure whatever it's a fantasy game with magic and poo poo go full Willy Wonka if you must. The raping part is the huge huge problem. The fetish poo poo is weird but whatever but there is p much no situation where sexual assault needs to ever come up in a game.
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Jul 2, 2020 19:05
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moths posted:We're talking about a module that features inflating a person and then gang-raping them to death, which I don't think falls under the "no kink shame" protections. I'm mostly discussing the problems raised by: Farg posted:real talk why cant folks keep their weird sex poo poo and their ttrpgin separate BitC is definitely in the "too far" category and I'm not going to say anyone is kink-shaming Chenier for saying it wasn't OK. (Chenier seems to agree, and the only person to have accused Chenier's critics of kink-shaming is our good friend  )
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Jul 2, 2020 19:07
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Yeah I'm more responding to the Tarentino whattaboutism. Like there's a world of difference between getting off on piss whizzard balloon rape and paying attention to some feet in a movie. It comes down to reading the room and setting expectations, I guess. Hell there's probably a case to be made that LotFP customers want and expect that kind of content.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:03
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I think it's fine to make kinky RPGs, provided they're labeled as such. This is obviously leaving out the racism and rape and so on. It's about informed consent, and that includes customers (often, a GM, for modules) and players (often not the purchaser) being informed and consenting to the material in the game they're about to play. Yes, that may mean some degree of spoilers. Too bad. If your game material features inflation fetish or yiffing or hell, just plain old vanilla sex content, inform customers on the packaging. And of course, then, also, don't abuse your customers, which you are doing if you include highly triggering or broadly offensive material like rape, incest, sexual assault, racism, offensive stereotyping of real-world cultures, etc. etc. "Warning: This module is like, super racist, buyer beware" doesn't constitute an excuse. I wish that went without saying. But yeah "Warning: this module contains mature themes, including explicit sexual content" would be a reasonable label to slap on a thing that would make it OK to have non-violent sexual themes in the module. e. which I wouldn't buy. And probably most people wouldn't buy. There's got to be sexy RPG groups out there who enjoy erotic roleplay, but I'm not interested, and I think the default for the large majority of RPG groups is that the group isn't interested.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:25
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yea if you wanna make Dicks & Dragons that's fine, you can do that, just be up front and go 'this is a game where you pork dragons and/or get porked by dragons, so all of you should be down to clown when you play it'. The problem is when it's 'hey we came over for a fun night of doin D&D poo poo and this dragon has his full dong out what's up, Ted?!'
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Jul 2, 2020 20:41
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Yeah the uncomfortable thing is that I'm sure some people buy these things hoping to subject their groups to them without communicating well and getting consent. Which isn't a reason not to publish such things at all, because ultimately they could do the same thing with homebrew content or whatever, and the only effective response there is to refuse to play with them and to destroy the idea that bad gaming is better than no gaming. But it does make clear labeling and warnings all the more important, because it sets community standards and prevents people from being able to be like "oh I just didn't know!" Which of course makes giving works like that major awards pretty messed up even if they're "just" full of unlabeled fetish fodder and not also racism and sexual violence.
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Jul 2, 2020 20:47
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"Publishing for public consumption" adds a layer of... [discomfort? unacceptability? wrongness?] to the whole thing. Two consenting adults engaging in sexual role play involving non-consent fantasies? Cool, cool. A group of consenting adults engaging in non-sexual role play about sexual things involving non-consent fantasies? Not good. I don't know if I can draw the line between the two, but it's there and crossing it feels gross.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:03
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I've brought this up before, but years ago there was a LotFP Free RPG Day adventure that featured illustrations of children sucking the poo poo out of a corpse's intestines like gogurt. My FLGS had this out on the table along with all the other regular freebies, and some leftover comics from Free Comic Book Day. They had literally no idea, I was like "hey maybe these go behind the counter" and I showed them why. It's America so like do whatever, but I gamed through the satanic panic and edgelord crap like this is how you get a second satanic panic.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:20
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CitizenKeen posted:"Publishing for public consumption" adds a layer of... [discomfort? unacceptability? wrongness?] to the whole thing. It's the difference between writing an explicit love letter to your SO detailing all the stuff (they're also into) you want to do with them and taking that same text and plastering it on billboards up and down a major freeway. Alternately, it's watching porn at home vs. watching porn in public where you know everyone will see it. One is personal and private (and assuming it can all be accurately described with the words "consenting adults") is fine, whereas the other is very much exhibitionist (and very much not ok.)
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Jul 2, 2020 21:25
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RPGs are already a tiny market, and outside "stealth" kinks like BitC I can't think of any kink RPG games that don't try to appeal as broad as possible by just having every kink in there, which, who wants to play that and not in an ironic "let's make fun of the sex creeps" kind of way? Ultimately the problem always hits when designing an appealing kink game that the only things you really have to introduce in an RPG are success degrees and random elements, and it's crazy hard to figure out how to introduce either of those without limiting the experience. We were just talking about this in a discord and I think the best answer is if you gotta write kinks, it's better to write a guide about how to write your own kink rpg scenario.
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Jul 2, 2020 22:15
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theironjef posted:RPGs are already a tiny market, and outside "stealth" kinks like BitC I can't think of any kink RPG games that don't try to appeal as broad as possible by just having every kink in there, which, who wants to play that and not in an ironic "let's make fun of the sex creeps" kind of way? It's also a bit of a lose-lose scenario. Try to be as broad as possible? You're gonna be too vanilla/tame. Try to appeal to a specific subculture? You're shrinking your potential market. On the other hand, very obscure kinksters are willing to pay top dollar due to the Laws of Supply and Demand, but at that point you can just as easily get by doing erotic novel eBooks as opposed to tabletop RPGs which will probably pay more. GreenMetalSun posted:If you strip out all the obvious kink poo poo, fetish bait, sexism, rape, and gratuitous racism there's nothing in the module. Discussions about race in the US (and likely the Western world in general) are cyclical in that the very conversations we're having have been argued for decades, and due to a combination of talking about it being taboo plus low-quality public schools means that every generation is going to have people who haven't brushed up on the basics of this kind of stuff. Granted, Dungeons n Donuts may have known and is self-justifying, but I've legit met and talked with people who were genuinely surprised to learn that Native Americans are still around and haven't all been killed off in the 1800s. And not just from uneducated Fox News bubble types, but people who otherwise had good, privileged educations but whose social circles never really intersected with LGBT and POC people to pick up on such things. I guess what I'm saying is that the accumulated knowledge of anti-racist and colonialism discussion isn't something that's added to the existing cultural paradigm and is absorbed effortlessly by the general public. There are holdovers on both sides of the political spectrum who just...don't initially get things, or were unaware of stuff others take for granted. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jul 3, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 01:52
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Libertad! posted:It's also a bit of a lose-lose scenario. Why not look back to the nineties and have an array of suppliments to cater to every market? You know. Splatbooks.
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Jul 3, 2020 02:18
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Libertad! posted:Discussions about race in the US (and likely the Western world in general) are cyclical in that the very conversations we're having have been argued for decades, and due to a combination of talking about it being taboo plus low-quality public schools means that every generation is going to have people who haven't brushed up on the basics of this kind of stuff. It's this but I think it's also that like... satire, parody, and takedown are skills, and there's a certain... not so much a school as a cargo cult, that teaches that you can do satire, parody, and takedown of something simply by upping the absurdity, taking things "too far", and adding a lot of unpleasant sex and violence. Gross-out humour as social criticism, that kind of thing. And I think this is kind of the environment you'd have existed within if you were super into LotFP, because Lamentations basically embraces that 70s-80s schlock aesthetic that also gave rise to the kind of films that at best are what this school is ineptly trying to ape, and at worst are simply of that school. edit: Ratoslov posted:Why not look back to the nineties and have an array of suppliments to cater to every market? Ah, yes, GURPS Graphic Sexual Horror, to complement every gamer's copy of GURPS High Heels. LatwPIAT fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Jul 3, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 02:19
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Libertad! posted:Discussions about race in the US (and likely the Western world in general) are cyclical in that the very conversations we're having have been argued for decades, and due to a combination of talking about it being taboo plus low-quality public schools means that every generation is going to have people who haven't brushed up on the basics of this kind of stuff. I get you, but if you're at the point that you're going to write, publish, and attach your name to something that supposed to be discussing the horrors faced by native populations under colonialism, you would (hopefully) put the tiniest bit of effort into research or you would run it by, like, actual native people. BitC was written by a dude with one hand on his dick as he rubbed one out to the idea of enslaving people and 'savage spearhuckers gangraping white women hurr hurr', and it shows (there's literally nothing in the module outside his fetishes and racism), and for him to suggest he was trying to create a high-minded critique is demeaning and gross. Like good for him to apologize, I guess, and better later than never, but he knew exactly what he was doing. He purposely wrote the module, proudly applied for the award, happily held the award for three years, and is only backing down now because of the current political climate. That tumblr post denouncing it was made yesterday, after Lancer drew attention to it. The author had zero regrets before realizing he was now in the public eye and the internet's collective opinion was going to turn on him.
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Jul 3, 2020 02:20
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Ultiville posted:In terms of when inserting it is good or bad, I just sort of wish authors would tag "I find some stuff in here sexy," and give broad-strokes details of what. e: Like this specific idea, I agree with everyone else upthread
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Jul 3, 2020 02:29
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Nessus posted:This idea seems as if it would have considerable knock on effects. It would also probably greatly discourage people who aren't exhibitionists. From writing about things they find sexy? That's probably good, is kind of my point. People are generally far worse than they think they are at hiding their horny. Or at least, very good at kidding themselves about it. I think it'd probably be wise for people to keep well clear of their particular kinks if they intend to be writing a product appropriate for general audiences. Maybe there are a few people who can actually manage "this turned me on but will be innocuous/horrifying/whatever to people it doesn't" but that's really risky territory.
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Jul 3, 2020 03:29
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Ultiville posted:From writing about things they find sexy? That's probably good, is kind of my point. People are generally far worse than they think they are at hiding their horny. Or at least, very good at kidding themselves about it. I think it'd probably be wise for people to keep well clear of their particular kinks if they intend to be writing a product appropriate for general audiences. Maybe there are a few people who can actually manage "this turned me on but will be innocuous/horrifying/whatever to people it doesn't" but that's really risky territory. e: Basically I agree with you, I think, that modules like Blood in the Chocolate are either best not written (at least in those forms) and/or should have clear labels on them, my examination here is the authorial statement, "I found these things in the modules sexy!:" which seems like a poor, but hilarious, way to go about the concept. Hilarious because you would probably get some statements to the effect of "I am, indeed, horny for gnolls," and poor, because there would be little added information of utility to players or runners, just an opportunity for the author to either make an embarrassing personal confession, or lie. Nessus fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Jul 3, 2020 |
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Jul 3, 2020 06:31
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Nessus posted:Would this be an expectation of all work or just things touching on levels above a particular "rating"? Like I parsed you as saying this should be a much more common sort of author's comment, when in fact, I do not want to hear about (for instance) Justin Achilli's kinks at all.
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Jul 3, 2020 06:47
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Nessus posted:Would this be an expectation of all work or just things touching on levels above a particular "rating"? Like I parsed you as saying this should be a much more common sort of author's comment, when in fact, I do not want to hear about (for instance) Justin Achilli's kinks at all. Oh, yeah, I was being a bit flippant about it, that’s fair. My expectation would be that proper tagging would primarily reduce the number of obviously horny monsters, situations, etc in modules, because people would have to confront just how common it really is. I wouldn’t expect the level of that to stay the same if people really had to own it. That said, if you just added “list of weirdly horny content” to all extant RPG materials, you’re right there would be really a lot of it. But I feel like that’s probably a major factor in keeping people from the genre. Like, sure, me at age 13 or whatever leafing through the monster manual appreciated the occasional Nymph entry or whatever, but I was going to be a hopeless nerd even if the game stuck to useful creatures for actual play, and I’m sure that sort of thing drives some folks away, and we don’t really want to encourage people to stay for it or use it in most play situations, or whatever.
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Jul 3, 2020 06:52
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As a Call of Cthulhu enthusiast, you run into the problem that someone's gonna be horny for anything. However, this is a horror gaming topic and horror gaming is kind of at least a mezzanine level above what I guess you could, grudgingly, call intro-level D&D stuff, which seems to be the main route for things in this day and age.. And I wouldn't object at all if CoC had a note on the cover/book wrap/author's note to the effect of "This game contains themes of horror, violence, and disturbing imagery and is derived from the works of noted dead racist Howard Lovecraft (see ch 2)." Terrible Opinions posted:Like if you find something inherently sexy you are generally never going to be able to write it as anything but your fetish in a game module. Like James Jacobs trying to include his femdom demon ladies in every other Pathfinder module as a serious plot element. The former could be integrated the way you can tell what Chris Claremont was Into from his run on X-Men but he wrote some great comic books; the latter, however, well: lol
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Jul 3, 2020 07:01
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Ultiville posted:Oh, yeah, I was being a bit flippant about it, that’s fair. My expectation would be that proper tagging would primarily reduce the number of obviously horny monsters, situations, etc in modules, because people would have to confront just how common it really is. I wouldn’t expect the level of that to stay the same if people really had to own it. I think to get rid of the horny monsters you'll have to start by putting artists up against the wall. They certainly seem congenitally incapable of not drawing bikini witches and stripper ninjas. Ultiville posted:That said, if you just added “list of weirdly horny content” to all extant RPG materials, you’re right there would be really a lot of it. But I feel like that’s probably a major factor in keeping people from the genre. Like, sure, me at age 13 or whatever leafing through the monster manual appreciated the occasional Nymph entry or whatever, but I was going to be a hopeless nerd even if the game stuck to useful creatures for actual play, and I’m sure that sort of thing drives some folks away, and we don’t really want to encourage people to stay for it or use it in most play situations, or whatever. It's something that a lot of women are conflicted about.
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Jul 3, 2020 07:04
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https://twitter.com/funtasticFunman/status/1278938094855741440
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Jul 3, 2020 07:34
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LatwPIAT posted:I think to get rid of the horny monsters you'll have to start by putting artists up against the wall. They certainly seem congenitally incapable of not drawing bikini witches and stripper ninjas. It sure would be nice for the RPG industry to get better at enforcing any kind of standards of professionalism at all for their artists (or anywhere else for that matter.) Just very simple stuff like "actually follow the art direction, or else." I know there are structural issues that make that Hard but lately it does seem some positive strides are being made, just obviously not in the corners of the industry that are founded on regressive adolescent rage.
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Jul 3, 2020 07:35
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The trick is to become horny for people in comfortable clothing. That's a win/win situation.
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Jul 3, 2020 07:38
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Ettin posted:The trick is to become horny for people in comfortable clothing. That's a win/win situation. Not with the way women are usually drawn in the industry!
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Jul 3, 2020 07:48
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LatwPIAT posted:Not with the way women are usually drawn in the industry! "God drat it, another chainmail bikini! Would it kill people to draw women in an hoodie from time to time, or maybe..." <heavy breathing> "... a comfy sweater..."
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Jul 3, 2020 10:12
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paradoxGentleman posted:"God drat it, another chainmail bikini! Would it kill people to draw women in an hoodie from time to time, or maybe..." Great. Now I’ve realized I have a fetish for women in non-sexualized situations just being people.
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Jul 3, 2020 14:21
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Xiahou Dun posted:Great. Now I’ve realized I have a fetish for women in non-sexualized situations just being people. "Oh god, yeah, drink that coffee. Read that paper. Oh .. oh my is that a.... donut? Eat it you wonderful person. Yesssss."
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Jul 3, 2020 14:34
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LatwPIAT posted:I think to get rid of the horny monsters you'll have to start by putting artists up against the wall. They certainly seem congenitally incapable of not drawing bikini witches and stripper ninjas. I mean the art is also an important aspect here, yeah. Not like there’s any single solution. But they feed into each other surely.
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Jul 3, 2020 14:47
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Kurieg posted:"Oh god, yeah, drink that coffee. Read that paper. Oh .. oh my is that a.... donut? Eat it you wonderful person. Yesssss." "Slide on those... mmm... comfortable sneakers so well-worn you can just leave the laces tied and still pull them on. Talk to me."
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Jul 3, 2020 15:47
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Lambo Trillrissian posted:It sure would be nice for the RPG industry to get better at enforcing any kind of standards of professionalism at all for their artists (or anywhere else for that matter.) Just very simple stuff like "actually follow the art direction, or else." I have some bad news about the industry and its art directors.
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Jul 3, 2020 16:12
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Did my ennies voting. Wanted to thank Sandy Pug Games (I think that's Nemesis?) both for Americana and uh the game about self-care in the itch.io bundle.
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Jul 3, 2020 17:31
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Dawgstsr, Kurieg, and XD, I realise that you're joking, but you're also all being very creepy
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Jul 3, 2020 18:17
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Yeah, I don't think the solution here is to "actively sexualize even routine activities," and it's not going to build some kind of positive space to do so. I don't know if there's a concise term for it, but it seems like a lot of the discomfort being discussed here - like above and beyond the obvious "gross" at BitC's content - is essentially, the feeling of being aware of the creator of a particular product being sexually excited by content in that product, which adds a level of disgust when it is an interactive product, because you are, in a sense, participating in that sexual excitement, if you are playing or running the module. This is then back-casted if you did one without knowing, and later, found out. This is distinct from, for instance, Quentin Tarantino's foot thing, because a movie is not interactive; Tarantino put that in his movie but you aren't being called on to roll Move Big Toe (extended action) to continue in the module.
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Jul 3, 2020 21:52
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Nessus posted:Yeah, I don't think the solution here is to "actively sexualize even routine activities," and it's not going to build some kind of positive space to do so. That's certainly part of it, yeah. As I've thought about it more, though, I think the core of my objection is that at some point in the very early days, someone decided that a lot of borderline stuff belonged in the hobby unwarned for some combination of reasons - some combination of "different times," the nature of the source material, the amateur-hour state of the industry (not that that's gone away), and just the fact that basically everyone involved at the top level appears to have been a straight cis dude. Things like sexy women trap monsters, weird monster sex ecology, and other stuff that was only going to be creepy if it actually came up in the game. In general RPGs have only slowly been getting on board with content warnings, and generally only parts of the industry are, and not the biggest parts. I don't have a Pathfinder 2 rulebook lying around, but from a glance at the 5E stuff, I don't see any prominent talk about the idea of player boundaries or appropriate content - they're too busy singing their own praises. (There might be some buried somewhere in the DMG, but it's certainly not prominent or strongly stated in the "most important things" section of either PHB or DMG unless I am failing to read.) Meanwhile 5E continues to feature such classics as the Succubus, plus mind control spells, which are a huge trigger for some players, and I'm sure a whole lot of other stuff that could really stand some warnings. BitC is clearly different from this, but it's on a continuum, and I think people often don't understand that even "normal" games like D&D are already a distance down that road. I certainly didn't for a long time, and it impacted my own work for the worse. Of course, I think most readers of this thread in 2020 understand that, so I guess it's mostly just lamenting the state of the industry, but that sort of seems like what the thread is for.
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Jul 3, 2020 22:12
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Ultiville posted:That's certainly part of it, yeah. One of the nicer changes in Pathfinder 2e is that the core rulebook is very very explicit on making the game comfortable and safe for your group, including recommendations to use X-Cards and other safety tools. The introduction specifically says to not use the game to be racist/sexist/queerphobic/etc, which made some chuds VERY mad during the playtesting.
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Jul 3, 2020 22:47
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https://twitter.com/DungeonCommandr/status/1279208531103629312
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Jul 4, 2020 01:45
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If only we knew that running a multimillion dollar brand with a skeleton crew plus a bunch of “freelancers” and part time employees would have negative consequences
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Jul 4, 2020 02:20
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