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"You won. Get over it." "Remainers won. They defeated May and the EEA Efta option."
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Jul 6, 2020 11:21
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So many lefties saying this is the end of the tories. Do they realise that the Tories have 4+ years to sort this out?
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Jul 6, 2020 12:31
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NGC773 posted:So many lefties saying this is the end of the tories. Do they realise that the Tories have 4+ years to sort this out? i remember people saying the same back in 2016. it's wishful thinking, i suspect
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Jul 6, 2020 12:39
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Jul 6, 2020 13:04
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Apparently this the most popular Labour has been in 25 years and Boris is still going to obliterate them for as long as he likes to be realistic.
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Jul 6, 2020 13:07
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NGC773 posted:So many lefties saying this is the end of the tories. Do they realise that the Tories have 4+ years to sort this out? Are they? Lol who is saying this
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Jul 6, 2020 13:24
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can't wait for the entire Labour party to resign over antisemitism
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Jul 6, 2020 17:23
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Communist Thoughts posted:Are they? Lol who is saying this This is the guy arguing that lockdown needs to be ended immediately to save the economy in the UK chat thread so i guess when he says lefties he means Guardian readers
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Jul 7, 2020 08:57
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MikeCrotch posted:This is the guy arguing that lockdown needs to be ended immediately to save the economy Not true at all. I think the slow easing of the lockdown, as its been done right now is the right thing to do. I was arguing against the continued strict lockdown we had in March.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:54
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you lust for low paid worker death eh
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Jul 7, 2020 11:55
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Jose posted:you lust for low paid worker death eh don't forget the elderly! they can also die
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Jul 7, 2020 12:16
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Jose posted:you lust for low paid worker death eh Seeing as the vast majority of low paid workers are in their 20s and that if you are under 50 the chances of you dying from COVID is ridiculously low no one should be worried.  If you have a pre-existing condition then you should follow government advice and take extra measures to isolate. If you are over 50, isolate. A vaccine is at least 6+ months away, what would you continue a strict lockdown and complete shut down of the economy until then? If you think Brexit is bad, then shutting down an economy for that period will be 10x worse.
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Jul 7, 2020 12:16
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while an effective lockdown is in place, people get into contact with each other a lot more rarely and take more serious measures, which reduces R to below 1 in many cases. this reduces the number of infections and allows for improved contact tracing to take place, after which one can reasonably reopen in a gradual way as you describe the issue is that johnson's government has been treating this as a public relations crisis rather than a public health crisis and hasn't been willing to push too hard at any time (to the point of cooking the stats in various ways to make things look better) and so there's no reason to take their word for it that it's reached that point - especially with the shambles of a tracing app that they launched, they don't really seem to have the sort of handle on the situation that would make reopening a responsible thing to do
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Jul 7, 2020 12:26
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NGC773 posted:Seeing as the vast majority of low paid workers are in their 20s and that if you are under 50 the chances of you dying from COVID is ridiculously low no one should be worried. people can't self isolate because the government isn't giving them money and its still sacrificing people. get a proper lockdown going, give people money to live and get a proper track and tracing system up and running and we could've been other EU countries ages ago
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Jul 7, 2020 12:30
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NGC773 posted:Seeing as the vast majority of low paid workers are in their 20s and that if you are under 50 the chances of you dying from COVID is ridiculously low no one should be worried. You are aware that COVID can cause nasty long-term damage even if it doesn't just outright kill you within weeks, yes? Are you at all familiar with the UK's safety net for sick and disabled people, or lack thereof? COVID-19 antibodies also don't seem to stick around very long, meaning that it soon becomes the pre-existing condition that makes your next dose more potentially lethal. Darth Walrus has issued a correction as of 13:08 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 13:06
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there is an obvious point though that we can't just lockdown like we were for years without global socialism or something. "end lockdown now!" is stupid but so is "no! lets stay shut down for ???" you need to do phased lockdowns, track and trace, case isolation all the stuff we knew right from the start. then you can go back to normal relatively safely. obviously though the UK government is completely incapable of doing that, and like a boomer who doesn't understand what a trans is, they're mad about it too. so we're just gonna have lots of deaths and trying to keep wetherspoons open. the government is banking on the fact that if the news can't or won't report on it then it basically doesn't happen as far as most people are concerned. and if a family member does die well... can hardly blame the tories for a disease can you! which is right, look how traumatised italy was by lower deaths than us. its coz they had newscameras in hospitals. we hid all the sick people away from cameras to die at home and in carehomes, which worked, more deaths in reality but less in the more important media fantasy land 70% of the population live in.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:16
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V. Illych L. posted:while an effective lockdown is in place, people get into contact with each other a lot more rarely and take more serious measures, which reduces R to below 1 in many cases. this reduces the number of infections and allows for improved contact tracing to take place, after which one can reasonably reopen in a gradual way as you describe Agreed. There have been a few failures with the Government that we could have all foreseen from the very moment they were announced. A few notable ones I remember: Announcing the key workers without even deciding who is a key worker, developing a UK tracing app when tech giants like Apple and Google were doing their own and offered for the UK to join, not being firm and certain about returning of schools. Jose posted:people can't self isolate because the government isn't giving them money and its still sacrificing people. get a proper lockdown going, give people money to live and get a proper track and tracing system up and running and we could've been other EU countries ages ago Can you name another European country that is currently still in a proper lockdown? Answer: There isn't. They are all slowly easing lockdown measures exactly like the UK. A UK trace system is running. I agree that the whole test and tracing system should have been developed a lot sooner. Darth Walrus posted:You are aware that COVID can cause nasty long-term damage even if it doesn't just outright kill you within weeks, yes? Are you at all familiar with the UK's safety net for sick and disabled people, or lack thereof? The UK has one of the most generous welfare systems in the world. This really is a first world problem when the vast majority of the world has ZERO safety net at all. It is far too early to make a genuine assessment on long term effect from COVID. SARS did have long term effects and is similar to COVID19 so it probably will have similar effects on exercise capacity..etc.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:17
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Communist Thoughts posted:there is an obvious point though that we can't just lockdown like we were for years without global socialism or something. "end lockdown now!" is stupid but so is "no! lets stay shut down for ???" There is a phased lockdown.... Test and trace is being run and becoming more efficient with everyday. There is government advice to isolate if you are in a vulnerable group. There is plenty of advice, guidance and orders out there by the UK government if you just search for it.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:19
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NGC773 posted:There is a phased lockdown.... lol e: to not just be a dick. this is extremely credulous. you're basing this off....? the governments press releases?
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Jul 7, 2020 13:21
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NGC773 posted:The UK has one of the most generous welfare systems in the world. This really is a first world problem when the vast majority of the world has ZERO safety net at all. lmao I'ma call my nearly crippled mother and tell her to stop loving whining about pain keeping her awake for days at a time over the last 13 years. The very generous system that got caught lying on the paperwork for her applications, and was found to have lied in a court of law, which did not overturn the verdict, is actually fine
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Jul 7, 2020 13:23
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my dad will work until the day he dies, probably of COVID, but I'll tell him if he reads the government advice every day before getting in the cab he'll be ok
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Jul 7, 2020 13:26
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What are the other options? A long-term, strict lockdown will cause even more damage to people than COVID. People need jobs, they need to earn money. The government cannot pay everyones wages for months on end. We do not live in a communist system, no matter how much some would wish we did. Spangly A posted:lmao Sound like a unique situation that I hope isn't representative of the NHS at large. Why didn't the court overturn any decisions if they were found to have lied?
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Jul 7, 2020 13:31
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i actually tend to sympathise with countries wanting to keep control of their own citizens' rather intimate data rather than farm it out to megacorporations. still, the procurement and implementation has to be an actual priority, which is incompatible with the present governing ideology of britain also the british welfare state has been pretty systematically hollowed out over the past several decades - this is probably the main reason for the recent surge in violent crime, for instance
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Jul 7, 2020 13:31
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many countries have managed the pandemic much better than britain, including other countries whose welfare states have been torn to shreds. genuinely most of the continent has done better. the johnson response to covid-19 has been to simply not take it seriously. it's unforgivable, or ought to be
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Jul 7, 2020 13:33
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V. Illych L. posted:many countries have managed the pandemic much better than britain, including other countries whose welfare states have been torn to shreds. genuinely most of the continent has done better. the johnson response to covid-19 has been to simply not take it seriously. it's unforgivable, or ought to be Agreed that the Govts response to COVID has not been good and that other EU countries have done it far better. My argument is that the easing of lockdown has to happen before the economic effect causes an even more adverse environment than COVID ever did.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:37
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NGC773 posted:The UK has one of the most generous welfare systems in the world. This really is a first world problem when the vast majority of the world has ZERO safety net at all. I know bloody nanny state gone mad isn't mate these idiots don't realise we live on a national credit card. We should get a pint some time and put the world to rights - i've been looking for a friend to share my outrage with about programmes I've watched on Channel 5
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Jul 7, 2020 13:39
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NGC773 posted:What are the other options? it absolutely can, the BoE and civil service pushed for this, not the government. NGC773 posted:Sound like a unique situation that I hope isn't representative of the NHS at large. Why didn't the court overturn any decisions if they were found to have lied? It's absolutely the norm and has nothing to do with the NHS whatsoever. Do you know literally anything about it? Disability benefit assessments are a kafkaesque hell run by IT contractors on behalf of the government. The courts don't overturn decisions because it's not within their legal authority to enforce doing. The higher courts have repeatedly told the government the entire system is not only corrupt and moribund but a massive violation of human rights and in no way legal. Government go pfffffft. e; in the specific case, we were told during judgement that there would be grounds for a discrimination lawsuit and a summary overturning if disability could be proved, by the same people making false statements on the paperwork. However, you can't actually appeal the decision with the DWP once it's been to court. Since it's a neurodegenerative illness of unknown origin, there's no caselaw that made it instantly recognisable as a disability, the disability had to be demonstrated by medical notices and a DWP claim. Do you see the circular logic at play? fwiw I think the judge was chatting poo poo too, disability has a legal definition that was easily met. He agreed, but wanted a label. I was up for beginning the 2nd round on the day but my mum, like thousands of others, was too dispirited to start the whole 2 year process over again. Spangly A has issued a correction as of 13:47 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 13:42
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NGC773 posted:Agreed that the Govts response to COVID has not been good and that other EU countries have done it far better. My argument is that the easing of lockdown has to happen before the economic effect causes an even more adverse environment than COVID ever did. this simply does not follow. your precise concern is the reason for the british government's inadequate response. it's simply a bad way to approach a plague
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Jul 7, 2020 13:42
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Spangly A posted:it absolutely can, the BoE and civil service pushed for this, not the government. Show me where the BOE said that the government can pay wages for the LONG term?? You realise the civil service doesn't have any power to make decisions without the government. They simply give advice Can you link me any court judgement against the benefits system that the government hasn't acted upon. DGC773 has issued a correction as of 13:47 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 13:45
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shot:NGC773 posted:What are the other options? chaser: quote:Sound like a unique situation that I hope isn't representative of the NHS at large. Why didn't the court overturn any decisions if they were found to have lied?
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Jul 7, 2020 13:46
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crispix posted:I know bloody nanny state gone mad isn't mate these idiots don't realise we live on a national credit card. We should get a pint some time and put the world to rights - i've been looking for a friend to share my outrage with about programmes I've watched on Channel 5 I don't partake in outrage generators such as Channel 5, twitter..etc
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Jul 7, 2020 13:46
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lol aren't you wonderful
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Jul 7, 2020 13:47
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NGC773 posted:I don't partake in outrage generators such as Channel 5, twitter..etc i think it would be best if you didn't partake in this forum, op.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:48
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NGC773 posted:Show me where the BOE said that the government can pay wages for the LONG term?? You realise the civil service doesn't have any power to make decisions without the government. They simply give advice lmao gently caress off. Show me why BoE cannot print money, which is the sole purpose of their existence, you worthless little rat NGC773 posted:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/22/universal-credit-rules-irrational-and-unlawful-judge-says Do your own loving homework
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Jul 7, 2020 13:49
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oliwan posted:i think it would be best if you didn't partake in this forum, op. I am beginning to think this thread is worse than reddit for left echo chamber it appears to be. Most of the COVID chatter I have read in this entire thread seems to be rooted in an ideological debate. Anyone who disagrees is brigaded.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:49
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the dogmatic refusal to even countenance that government can actively intervene in society in a positive way is at the heart of toryism since thatcher and it's rather dispiriting to see it pushed as an unassailable axiom in cspam of all places
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Jul 7, 2020 13:50
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Spangly A posted:lmao gently caress off. Show me why BoE cannot print money, which is the sole purpose of their existence, you worthless little rat No need for the personal insults. The BOE cannot continue to let the money printers go off forever. Look at what happened to Germany in the 1920s when the printers go wild. Thanks for that link. Let's see what the Government will do, which if they have been instructed by a Court that what they are doing is illegal then they must act.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:51
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worrying about "the economy" in the abstract hides a lot of assumptions. it's widely said and widely accepted that shutting down "the economy" is unthinkable, never been done before, would kill millions. it's certainly not something that happened still within living memory and has been part of the operational capability of the state for at least a century now. in a major war the civilian economy stops. millions of civilians are pulled out of the labour force and put in uniform. whole industries are switched over to wartime production. normal wages and benefits are suspended because there are no civilian goods to buy. in fact a major war is WORSE than a lockdown because all that industry and effort is still ongoing, it's just going into the production of extremely expensive goods that are absolutely useless outside of war. all those millions of servicemen are producing nothing but consuming more than ever. enemy action may be simultaneously destroying what remaining civilian productive capacity you have. and yet countries are able to sustain these states of affairs for years at a time. rich countries can even do it without starving or otherwise sacrificing their civilian population. last time it happened in the UK the average person's diet and healthcare was improved by the end due to state intervention. and to reiterate, fighting a pandemic is not fighting a war. it is much, much easier. the best thing to do is just to do less. don't draft the civilian workforce, don't work twelve hour shifts producing munitions, don't sink millions of man-hours of production into the atlantic every month. just stay home. the capability is there, the capacity is there, it is entirely possible to commit to six or twelve or eighteen months of lockdown if that is required. the lights will stay on and food will stay on the shelves because we know how to do those things with 75% of everything else switched off. "the economy" will cope because "the economy" is entirely subject to the objectives of the state. you are choosing not to support that due to your own abstract balance of consumer goods vs consumer lives. how many people you're willing to sacrifice to buy a new Tesla. that's it. there's no need to blame it on "the economy" as if it's some vast fetish god.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:52
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NGC773 posted:I am beginning to think this thread is worse than reddit for left echo chamber it appears to be. attempting to dismiss the deep flaws of the contemporary british welfare state as first world problems without a very developed argument is liable to cause some frustration in areas where the opposite is taken as obviously true e. clarification V. Illych L. has issued a correction as of 13:56 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 13:53
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NGC773 posted:I am beginning to think this thread is worse than reddit for left echo chamber it appears to be. ideology 
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Jul 7, 2020 13:54
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