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skasion posted:They’re just dead guys who worship S
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Jul 4, 2020 08:45
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:I couldn't care less about some dead wight guys talking about hobbits on dead wight forums. i do like that outside "well smaug wont know the smell of hobbits" gandalf doesn't really have a good reason to send Bilbo off into some death adventure.
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Jul 4, 2020 12:15
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Dapper_Swindler posted:talking about hobbits on dead wight forums. Gandalf claims he likes hobbits, yet he keeps sending them off on adventures that are likely to get them killed. What did Bilbo's parents do to make him hate the Baggins family? After Gandalf gets done with them, the Baggins family has been wiped out.
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Jul 4, 2020 15:14
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So apparently (my source is a Facebook post and I can’t be arsed to double-check it right now so take it with a grain of salt) Peter Jackson at first wanted to have a scene where Frodo imagines the future if he keeps the ring and they even put Elijah Wood into makeup for that tbh that looks kinda rad
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Jul 4, 2020 17:39
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Dapper_Swindler posted:talking about hobbits on dead wight forums. Gandalf posted:‘Somehow I had been attracted by Bilbo long before, as a child, and a young hobbit: he had not quite come of age when I had last seen him. He had stayed in my mind ever since, with his eagerness and his bright eyes, and his love of tales, and his questions about the wide world outside the Shire. As soon as I entered the Shire I heard news of him. He was getting talked about, it seemed. Both his parents had died early for Shire-folk, at about eighty; and he had never married. He was already growing a bit queer, they said, and went off for days by himself. He could be seen talking to strangers, even Dwarves. Gandalf posted:‘So I rode off back to Thorin in haste, to tackle the difficult task of persuading him to put aside his lofty designs and go secretly – and take Bilbo with him. Without seeing Bilbo first. It was a mistake, and nearly proved disastrous. For Bilbo had changed, of course. At least, he was getting rather greedy and fat, and his old desires had dwindled down to a sort of private dream. Nothing could have been more dismaying than to find it actually in danger of coming true! He was altogether bewildered, and made a complete fool of himself.
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Jul 4, 2020 17:58
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No wonder Gandalf was treated with suspicion, always encouraging attractive children to disappear on "adventures"
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Jul 5, 2020 02:08
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System Metternich posted:So apparently (my source is a Facebook post and I can’t be arsed to double-check it right now so take it with a grain of salt) Peter Jackson at first wanted to have a scene where Frodo imagines the future if he keeps the ring and they even put Elijah Wood into makeup for that Looks like Dominic Cummings.
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Jul 5, 2020 20:16
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Perhaps one of you can give a better idea, but just where did Ungoliant come from? She seems like she's almost from a different dimension than other beings in Tolkien's writing. She's not a Valar, if she was a Maia she's extremely loving powerful to contend with Melkor, and the only explanation I've seen that sounds possible (but unconfirmed) is that she is the manifestation of the all-consuming void. Also her song on Blind Guardian's Nightfall in Middle-Earth album (the best Tolkien adaptation, fight me) kicks rear end.
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Jul 5, 2020 21:26
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Arcsquad12 posted:Perhaps one of you can give a better idea, but just where did Ungoliant come from? She seems like she's almost from a different dimension than other beings in Tolkien's writing. She's not a Valar, if she was a Maia she's extremely loving powerful to contend with Melkor, and the only explanation I've seen that sounds possible (but unconfirmed) is that she is the manifestation of the all-consuming void.
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Jul 5, 2020 21:36
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Arcsquad12 posted:Perhaps one of you can give a better idea, but just where did Ungoliant come from? She seems like she's almost from a different dimension than other beings in Tolkien's writing. She's not a Valar, if she was a Maia she's extremely loving powerful to contend with Melkor, and the only explanation I've seen that sounds possible (but unconfirmed) is that she is the manifestation of the all-consuming void. Ungoliant is (textually) descended from Moru/Ungweliante in the Book of Lost Tales, who personifies (well, spiderifies) the primeval night in more or less the same way as the other gods personify their spheres within creation, but “even the Valar know not whence or when she came”. The BOLT version also has her ultimately getting smoked by Earendil on his world tour. But in the published Silmarillion this is downgraded to the Eldar not knowing whence she came, and it’s stated that “some have said” she’s a servant of Morgoth who split off from him and did her own thing, which would make her one of the proto-Ainur. Best Tolkien metal song is “Cirith Ungol” by Reverend Bizarre
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Jul 5, 2020 21:47
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Arcsquad12 posted:Perhaps one of you can give a better idea, but just where did Ungoliant come from? She seems like she's almost from a different dimension than other beings in Tolkien's writing. She's not a Valar, if she was a Maia she's extremely loving powerful to contend with Melkor, and the only explanation I've seen that sounds possible (but unconfirmed) is that she is the manifestation of the all-consuming void. There may be more Valar than the 14 Lords and Queens. (This seems to be a controversial idea, and the text isn't extremely clear about it.) She could be one of them. Or something related to this: Ainulindalë posted:Yet some things there are that they [the Valar] cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
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Jul 5, 2020 21:53
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your all wrong, its this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y
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Jul 5, 2020 22:06
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Kilson posted:There may be more Valar than the 14 Lords and Queens. (This seems to be a controversial idea, and the text isn't extremely clear about it.) She could be one of them.
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Jul 5, 2020 22:19
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Kilson posted:There may be more Valar than the 14 Lords and Queens. (This seems to be a controversial idea, and the text isn't extremely clear about it.) She could be one of them. The text (in the Silmarillion version, at least) seems pretty clear - there are a load of Ainur who stayed with Iluvatar; 14 of them headed into Ea after its creation which got them called Valar, the Powers of the World, and they brought various companions/hangers-on with them, who are the Maiar. So Valar, by definition, are those 14, though some Maiar are pretty near as powerful as they are and who knows about the Ainur who stayed with Iluvatar.
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Jul 5, 2020 22:54
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ChubbyChecker posted:your all wrong, its this: A strong contender, but I think Noldor is the best https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EyNjmspx64 Interesting stuff about Ungoliant. She's just such a strange and alien entity when compared to other bits of Tolkien
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Jul 5, 2020 22:54
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Vala is a job title, “Power”. It means that you have been invested by God with authority over creation, which would seem to rule Ungoliant out pretty well. Similarly Ainu, “holy one”, and Maia, “beautiful/excellent one” are not adequate descriptors. But I think it’s impossible to avoid the conclusion that Ungoliant is one of the pre-creation void spirits, like all the Ainur, Valar and Maiar, whether made by Iluvatar (as the Silm says) or maybe inherent to the void in some way (like BOLT seems to suggest).
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Jul 5, 2020 23:00
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skasion posted:Ungoliant is (textually) descended from Moru/Ungweliante in the Book of Lost Tales, who personifies (well, spiderifies) the primeval night in more or less the same way as the other gods personify their spheres within creation, but “even the Valar know not whence or when she came”. The BOLT version also has her ultimately getting smoked by Earendil on his world tour. But in the published Silmarillion this is downgraded to the Eldar not knowing whence she came, and it’s stated that “some have said” she’s a servant of Morgoth who split off from him and did her own thing, which would make her one of the proto-Ainur. the best tolkien related song is the silver ships of andilar by townes van zandt
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Jul 5, 2020 23:04
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Shibawanko posted:the best tolkien related song is the silver ships of andilar by townes van zandt Yeah this one slaps ChubbyChecker posted:your all wrong, its this: https://wolvefrost.bandcamp.com/track/iron-fist-of-the-orc
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Jul 5, 2020 23:05
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i always thought ungoliant was some kind of "bestial" type of entity, like a nature spirit representing predatory natures and the will to consume other life, or something
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Jul 5, 2020 23:06
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i am starting to think the Invisible effect of the ring on non sauron people was sorta of weird back up anti theft measurement. like sure it "helps" you but it also rots you spiritually and bodily and its addictive, so onece sauron or his goons show up again, said theives make for theoretically pickings.
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Jul 5, 2020 23:41
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The ring definitely tries to get back to sauron on its own, and I think part of that is the way it convinces people that they are powerful with it. Because that would lead them into conflict with sauron, and in most cases that would be a fight sauron would win.
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Jul 6, 2020 00:00
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i am starting to think the Invisible effect of the ring on non sauron people was sorta of weird back up anti theft measurement. like sure it "helps" you but it also rots you spiritually and bodily and its addictive, so onece sauron or his goons show up again, said theives make for theoretically pickings. That was actually the strategy of the Witch King and the Nine during the pursuit of the hobbits and Aragorn after Bree! Stabbing Frodo with the morgul blade was supposed to turn him into a wraithy shadow creature who would willingly turn over the ring and join them.
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Jul 6, 2020 01:20
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SHISHKABOB posted:The ring definitely tries to get back to sauron on its own, and I think part of that is the way it convinces people that they are powerful with it. Because that would lead them into conflict with sauron, and in most cases that would be a fight sauron would win. yeah. does the ring give a non sauron person any actual powers outside invisibility/longer life span? i assume its just that stuff because anti theft and also it has the whole "aura" of greater power/addiction.
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Jul 6, 2020 04:25
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You can see into the spirit realm. Which is pretty cool. Sam could read minds when he wore it Iirc
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Jul 6, 2020 04:27
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The ring gives power according to your stature. Galadriel famously says she could replace Sauron if she had the ring. Gandalf says that Aragorn would give Sauron a real challenge if he had put on the ring. Frodo even complains that he didn't get cool powers when he put on the ring, and is told a) he didn't try to discover any other powers and b) he would have to become stronger and bend his will toward domination
Imagined fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jul 6, 2020 |
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Jul 6, 2020 05:55
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One of Tolkien’s letters discusses this a little bit. It doesn’t seem like the ring gives significant power in terms of, like, rpg stats. Tolkien writes of any of the potential challengers to Sauron, only Gandalf would have stood a chance in single combat, and even then only maybe. That strikes me as a little odd, since it seems like any of the big elves, Galadriel in particular, would give Gandalf a run for his money, based on other descriptions in the text. But the point remains that the ring could have given someone strong enough the power to defeat Sauron, but not the power to personally go to Mordor and gently caress his poo poo up. If I had to make a guess as to what specific powers the ring would grant, other than invisibility, long life, and exceptional powers of perception, I expect it would give power to mentally dominate and control servants, and cow and utterly subdue those that couldn’t be dominated. Probably it could also inspire terror and weakness in enemies. Likely it would give serious aid to necromancy and binding and domination of spirits, as well as some sway over Middle-Earth and natural forces (e.g. blighting land in exchange for forcing it to give up resources, or using it to build indestructible fortresses).
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Jul 6, 2020 10:29
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:That was actually the strategy of the Witch King and the Nine during the pursuit of the hobbits and Aragorn after Bree! Stabbing Frodo with the morgul blade was supposed to turn him into a wraithy shadow creature who would willingly turn over the ring and join them. 
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Jul 6, 2020 10:34
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Heithinn Grasida posted:One of Tolkien’s letters discusses this a little bit. It doesn’t seem like the ring gives significant power in terms of, like, rpg stats. Tolkien writes of any of the potential challengers to Sauron, only Gandalf would have stood a chance in single combat, and even then only maybe. That strikes me as a little odd, since it seems like any of the big elves, Galadriel in particular, would give Gandalf a run for his money, based on other descriptions in the text. But the point remains that the ring could have given someone strong enough the power to defeat Sauron, but not the power to personally go to Mordor and gently caress his poo poo up. i always imagined it gives you demagoguery powers, sauron is the maia of order, he probably promised the easterlings that theyd rule over an ordered society if they help him using a big speech (not delivered in person of course, through a representative like the mouth), it probably also lets you basically control other people directly like speak through their mouths and so on
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Jul 6, 2020 10:54
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Shibawanko posted:the best tolkien related song is the silver ships of andilar by townes van zandt It's this
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Jul 6, 2020 10:57
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Arcsquad12 posted:Perhaps one of you can give a better idea, but just where did Ungoliant come from? She seems like she's almost from a different dimension than other beings in Tolkien's writing. She's not a Valar, if she was a Maia she's extremely loving powerful to contend with Melkor, and the only explanation I've seen that sounds possible (but unconfirmed) is that she is the manifestation of the all-consuming void. A giant evil spider from outside time & space?  Shibawanko posted:the best tolkien related song is the silver ships of andilar by townes van zandt
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Jul 6, 2020 14:39
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Shibawanko posted:i always imagined it gives you demagoguery powers, sauron is the maia of order Is he though? His main skill seems to be loving people over with presents/promises with really nasty backdoors built-in - his Annatar persona giving out magic rings like candy without mentioning the whole "yeah, they'll turn you into my wraith slaves for eternity lol" thing, sweet-talking Ar-Pharazon into invading Valinor, promising Gorlim his wife back if he betrays Beren then laughing in his face. He doesn't seem to be into order per se as much as gotcha-ing suckers.
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Jul 6, 2020 14:40
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Sauron isn’t like the “god of order” or something. This idea comes from Morgoth’s Ring, but the point JRRT is making there is just that Sauron wants to rule the world and make all its trains run on time, whereas Morgoth wants to annihilate it and everything in it.
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Jul 6, 2020 14:57
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skasion posted:Sauron isn’t like the “god of order” or something. This idea comes from Morgoth’s Ring, but the point JRRT is making there is just that Sauron wants to rule the world and make all its trains run on time, whereas Morgoth wants to annihilate it and everything in it. Which is really dumb because apparently Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth even after Morgoth’s defeat despite the fact their goals are mutually exclusive.
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Jul 6, 2020 15:13
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Which is really dumb because apparently Sauron remained loyal to Morgoth even after Morgoth’s defeat despite the fact their goals are mutually exclusive. Was Sauron loyal to Morgoth after the War of Wrath? In the sense that he continued to be opposed to the Valar, sure, but we could just as well take that as him looking out for himself and trying to avoid spending the next eon chained to a wall in Mandos to prove he was actually a nice guy. Remember, he spent the next six thousand years trying by various means to become god emperor of the world, not like yeeting himself into space and trying to pull Morgoth back through the door of night or anything. He invoked Morgoth as an object of worship in Numenor, but he was deliberately trying to gently caress over Pharazon and everyone else there by getting them so fired up against the gods that they would gladly walk into their own genocide. He may have thought of Morgoth as a proper object of worship for his own subjects (though LotR suggests more that if anyone is worshiped in Mordor, it’s Sauron himself) but he certainly wasn’t trying to convert Numenoreans to Morgoth worship out of sincere religious sentiment. Tolkien doesn’t really make clear in “Morgoth’s Ring” how well anyone knew Morgoth’s actual motivations. I doubt he figured Morgoth just told Sauron “uh yeah I’m planning to smash everything in the universe but don’t worry I’ll do you last”. You could think of it as Sauron projecting his own desire for dominion rather than universal annihilation onto Morgoth, the same way he projects his own will to power onto the westerners in LotR and ends up getting blindsided by the destruction of the ring. Or you could think of it as Sauron being so starry-eyed about how cool and powerful Morgoth was that he didn’t really question where it was all going in the end.
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Jul 6, 2020 19:49
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skasion posted:Sauron isn’t like the “god of order” or something. This idea comes from Morgoth’s Ring, but the point JRRT is making there is just that Sauron wants to rule the world and make all its trains run on time, whereas Morgoth wants to annihilate it and everything in it. he wasn't the god of it but i think it's pretty strongly suggested that he wants to create a kind of order, the way the orcs in cirith ungol talk like they live in a surveillance state suggests this at least, it was some kind of prime motivation or part of his character or something
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Jul 6, 2020 20:08
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I know Tolkien never got the eschatology worked out to his satisfaction, but was there any particular reason for Sauron to think Melkor would or even could return?
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Jul 6, 2020 21:42
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I just consider sauron to be morgorth. Functionally they are the same.
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Jul 6, 2020 22:24
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quote:Now they laid Boromir in the middle of the boat that was to bear him away. The grey hood and elven-cloak they folded and placed beneath his head. They combed his long dark hair and arrayed it upon his shoulders. The "they" in that quote is Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas. So which of them is carrying around a comb? Or is it Boromir's?? Is the comb magical or ancient in any way? Is this addressed in a letter or something?
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Jul 7, 2020 05:04
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The "they" in that quote is Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas. So which of them is carrying around a comb? Or is it Boromir's?? Is the comb magical or ancient in any way? Is this addressed in a letter or something? You can comb your hair with your fingers. It’s a verb as well as an object. (Of course the comb is Legolas’. He’s the prettiest.)
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Jul 7, 2020 05:48
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They used Gimli’s beard comb
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Jul 7, 2020 08:49
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