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moths posted:It's kind of an Itchy and Scratchy thing where you can't satirize / comment upon certain things without creating something for unintended audiences to indulge in. Writing explicit sex scenes is absolutely not required to comment on or satirize sex issues, though.
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Jul 6, 2020 17:09
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Ultiville posted:Writing explicit sex scenes is absolutely not required to comment on or satirize sex issues, though. Seriously. It kind of feels like someone tried to come up with the high minded explanation after the fact to justify the poo poo.
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Jul 6, 2020 18:24
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Qoey posted:Seriously. It kind of feels like someone tried to come up with the high minded explanation after the fact to justify the poo poo. The thing that people are pointing out is that this is already an established question in literary criticism about a great piece of literature. Lolita is very, very good in many ways, and justifiably/defensively so. The question of "can you write this kind of story about sexualizing children for more than just prurient interest" is absolutely settled as a critical question, and the answer is yes. So the objective is reachable, but as people are pointing out, you are very unlikely to be as good a writer as Nabokov was, and if you're not that good an author it is very unlikely you can pull it off. It's not an after the fact observation because Lolita was obviously an inspiration/influence on Girls, and Kelman would have definitely been thinking about that comparison no matter what his reason for writing Girls was. How Girls reads, and Kelman's goals for writing it, are relevant points of criticism. As Dr. Sneer Gory and LatwPIAT pointed out: you not only need to think that you're as good a writer as Nabokov, you need to think you have something new and substantial to add. I doubt Kelman met either of those bars.
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Jul 6, 2020 18:38
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Does Hasbro, a children's toy company, know that it employs a guy who wrote a book about loving children? Book club semantics aside, this seems like a bad fit.Ultiville posted:Writing explicit sex scenes is absolutely not required to comment on or satirize sex issues, though. This is true, but I'd assume that the power imbalance and normalization would be sufficient to warm a predator's heart. Statutory rape, like all rape, is about much more than sex.
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Jul 6, 2020 19:00
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moths posted:This is true, but I'd assume that the power imbalance and normalization would be sufficient to warm a predator's heart. Statutory rape, like all rape, is about much more than sex. Might be true, but seemingly pretty irrelevant to the issue at hand. Like, could I imagine a novel featuring that kind of content that wouldn't be a clear problem? Sure, I can imagine lots of things. There probably even are a few that exist. But we aren't talking about a theoretical novel, we're talking about an actual specific one. And more generally: quote:Does Hasbro, a children's toy company, know that it employs a guy who wrote a book about loving children? Book club semantics aside, this seems like a bad fit. This is the problem. I mean not so much being a children's toy company, but that hiring the writer of this book in a supervisory position seems a poor choice in terms of establishing that your story is in good and appropriate hands, and that your company is committed to making a safe and welcoming environment. I'm not saying the book should be banned or whatever, I'm saying if you write that book, people who employ you in a position of power should expect some pointed questions.
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Jul 6, 2020 20:03
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moths posted:Does Hasbro, a children's toy company, know that it employs a guy who wrote a book about loving children? Book club semantics aside, this seems like a bad fit. Yes, they absolutely know. It came up in gaming news stuff when he was hired, even. They just didn’t care.
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Jul 6, 2020 20:04
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Its dangerous stupid, I'll say that. You do not want be the guy running a big toy company and hear about some pedo scandal by someone in your pay
StratGoatCom fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jul 6, 2020 |
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Jul 6, 2020 21:21
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https://www.tor.com/2020/07/06/wizards-of-the-coast-freelancer-quits-due-to-hostile-work-environment/ Tor.com of all places wrote about the WotC stuff, and they normally just write fluff pieces on TV shows or Tor-published novels.
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Jul 6, 2020 21:25
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 6, 2020 23:58
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That's very, uh, lawyer-y. The original thread was kind of weird. They seemed to have taken a Discord conversation/email exchange that they clearly put a lot of effort into and turned it into something waaaaay bigger than that, and then used that to basically say that CR had hired a diversity consultant and ignored all their advice. That said, it doesn't change the "individual"'s original concern, which is that the CR community is full of reactionary and abusive voices that are not actively modded out by CR even when they appear in official forums.
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Jul 7, 2020 00:26
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The worst thing is that I now know the cutesy name they have for their fans: "critters".
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Jul 7, 2020 00:31
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admanb posted:That's very, uh, lawyer-y. The original complaint has a problem where the complaint itself ("I decided I should get paid for this and they didn't agree") is presented alongside a bunch of awful stuff about harassment, but they don't actually mix. Like, no matter how much the CR community is mean to a person, there's no threshold at which CR now owes them a paid job. CR should be held responsible for their fandom, they should be held to account over leaning too heavily (ie at loving all) on parasocial volunteerism, but the two just can't combine into a surefire resume.
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Jul 7, 2020 00:35
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 00:44
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Greg Tito a member of the D&D team posted about Orion and mentions bringing up the situation to the higher ups at Hasbro in a different tweet. Though I doubt it will change anything. https://twitter.com/Gregtito/status/1279250110237380608 Edit: Bit more from Greg, replying to one of the DM's whose games WoTC sponsors. https://twitter.com/Gregtito/status/1279466641919602688 MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 00:52
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MonsterEnvy posted:Greg Tito a member of the D&D team posted about Orion and mentions bringing up the situation to the higher ups at Hasbro in a different tweet. Though I doubt it will change anything. also this https://twitter.com/Raddu76/status/1279472969333399552
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Jul 7, 2020 02:22
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admanb posted:That's very, uh, lawyer-y.
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Jul 7, 2020 02:23
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dwarf74 posted:I think with good reason though? Accusing Critical Role of not doing a good enough job of policing their own fanbase is a thorny issue and I can see coming down on either side of "they're doing what they can" vs "they aren't doing enough"
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Jul 7, 2020 02:35
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dwarf74 posted:I think with good reason though? Yeah. I think part of why it seemed weird is because, as theironjef noted, the original thread merged their "free labor" complaint with their "the community is full of bullies" complaint.
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Jul 7, 2020 02:43
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FMguru posted:The worst thing is that I now know the cutesy name they have for their fans: "critters". Coming up with nicknames for people in your community is pretty dumb, and I think most Goons would agree 
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Jul 7, 2020 05:49
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Ettin posted:Coming up with nicknames for people in your community is pretty dumb, and I think most Goons would agree I wouldn't call it dumb, I'd just say that it's something awful for a community to do. Anyway, I spent the last couple days being dogpiled by the CR community so maybe I'm not feeling particularly generous about what Matt Mercer is saying they can and are doing.
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Jul 7, 2020 09:30
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Sorry Meinberg. What happened?
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Jul 7, 2020 10:07
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https://twitter.com/funtasticFunman/status/1280318593113165825
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Jul 7, 2020 10:09
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Apparently, Patrick Stuart never cut ties with Raggi/  .
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Jul 7, 2020 13:04
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Eastmabl posted:Apparently, Patrick Stuart never cut ties with Raggi/ , it looks like? But just doesn't care about working with his best mate/financial supporter, and adding mechanics notes that just happen to unnecessarily promote Raggi.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:10
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CR really feels like they're running aground on the rocks of trying to be 'just another group of nerdy-rear end friends gaming' and 'being an LLC.'
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Jul 7, 2020 13:48
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I dunno what one can do to stop people who consume your content from being assholes online. There is only so much control or power that one can project in a situation where harassment is happening outside of a chat or platform that they can moderate. If people don't listen when he makes a literal direct appeal and request on the show and socials, what the hell else can one do in these situations. Dawgstar posted:CR really feels like they're running aground on the rocks of trying to be 'just another group of nerdy-rear end friends gaming' and 'being an LLC.' It's the "curse" of growing big. You completely lose any chance of control of the people in your community. While at the same time losing benefit of the doubt from those with criticisms of you. It's why most outfits that grow that big tend to like just stop interacting with their fanbase outside of a platform or two they control. Dexo fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 13:48
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Dexo posted:I dunno what one can do to stop people who consume your content from being assholes online. Hold the content hostage?
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Jul 7, 2020 13:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:Hold the content hostage? That'd just probablymake people more mad, and cause more dogpiling and mess in the community.
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Jul 7, 2020 13:59
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Dexo posted:I dunno what one can do to stop people who consume your content from being assholes online. Denounce their behaviour and kick them out of the parts of the community you directly control, all while making it very clear that you're doing this because of their behaviour and won't hesitate to do the same to anyone else. It's not perfect, but it has the dual effect of encouraging fans to behave and making anyone who doesn't behave exit the community directly (in the case of a first-party community) or indirectly once they realise their values are not aligned with the content or content creators' values. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 14:50
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Dexo posted:It's the "curse" of growing big. You completely lose any chance of control of the people in your community. While at the same time losing benefit of the doubt from those with criticisms of you. I do wonder just who works for CR aside from Matt and the company. As funny as the image is, you can't really have like Liam investigate claims of unpaid work between sessions of directing Boruto.
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Jul 7, 2020 14:59
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Dawgstar posted:I do wonder just who works for CR aside from Matt and the company. As funny as the image is, you can't really have like Liam investigate claims of unpaid work between sessions of directing Boruto. https://critrole.com/team/ (there are two pages)
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Jul 7, 2020 15:06
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Kaysette posted:https://critrole.com/team/ (there are two pages) Interesting. I know there's 28 people listed, but that still feels kinda small?
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Jul 7, 2020 15:10
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Edit: Should have checked after walking away.Dawgstar posted:Interesting. I know there's 28 people listed, but that still feels kinda small? 28 is more than I would have guessed tbh. They've seemingly offloaded a ton of the poo poo that they used to handle themselves. Dexo fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 15:11
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Lemon-Lime posted:Denounce their behaviour and kick them out of the parts of the community you directly control, all while making it very clear that you're doing this because of their behaviour and won't hesitate to do the same to anyone else. CR has little to no areas they directly control that matter in this context, its all twitter/tumblr discussions
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Jul 7, 2020 15:23
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They outsource a bunch of stuff for the upcoming cartoon IIRC - the animation is being handled by another company, the same one that did their intro and the Beyond ad. But yeah, they're running into the common internet problem of becoming so big that your community stops being a community and starts beign a fandom, at which point no matter what you do you simply cannot keep control over it. Seeing them all on the latest episode with earpieces in (presumably to hear one another ebcause they're sat far enough away to make it difficult to hear at normal volumes) really made it clear that they're not a gang of friends round a table any more.
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Jul 7, 2020 15:55
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 15:56
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Is there more than one Patrick Stewart or am I very unaware of something?
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Jul 7, 2020 15:59
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Is there more than one Patrick Stewart or am I very unaware of something? Yes, this Patrick is actually spelled Stuart and is a OSR game designer who generally writes very good things but has a history of bad associations (was a collaborator/friend of before a very public breakup).Also I'm wary of saying those mentions of LotFP are endorsements/ads for it. Writing generic OSR clone text is surprisingly hard (I tried recently for a couple things), and LotFP is weirdly different enough that calling out its differences makes sense. Putting compatibility notes in for the system the module was originally written for is just good form imo. e: like these are the kinds of compatibility stuff Stuart's covering there. Mentioning LotFP makes sense because of how different it is. 
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Jul 7, 2020 16:04
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:CR has little to no areas they directly control that matter in this context, its all twitter/tumblr discussions Denouncing and making fun of the problem people (preferably in actual content so they can't miss it) still has some effect, since in general you're less likely to stay in a fandom when its creators have made it clear that they hate you. If there's content that those people are using to claim they have the creators' backing in some vague sense, editing/removing that content and making it clear that it's because people are misusing it can also send a clear message.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:04
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Zandar posted:Denouncing and making fun of the problem people (preferably in actual content so they can't miss it) still has some effect, since in general you're less likely to stay in a fandom when its creators have made it clear that they hate you. If there's content that those people are using to claim they have the creators' backing in some vague sense, editing/removing that content and making it clear that it's because people are misusing it can also send a clear message. They do. There have been multiple episodes of CR where Matt opens and or ends with a statement to the effect of "aye yo assholes stop, please those in our community, just loving stop chill the gently caress out"
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Jul 7, 2020 16:08
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