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skasion posted:Sauron isn’t like the “god of order” or something. This idea comes from Morgoth’s Ring, but the point JRRT is making there is just that Sauron wants to rule the world and make all its trains run on time, whereas Morgoth wants to annihilate it and everything in it. I know I'm arguing with the guy who wrote him at this point but he doesn't really give the impression of wanting the trains to run on time unless they're running on one of those timetables with ten tons of footnotes and exceptions where the trains show up 10 minutes early when the time's divisible by 3 and splat you while you're crossing the line (because who needs bridges or subways, just read the timetable). Which come to think of it is entirely fitting for a Maiar of technology; I'm sure we can all think of many examples of technology acting exactly like that. I withdraw my complaints and bow to Tolkien's wisdom.
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Jul 7, 2020 09:11
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Part of the attraction of Morgoth was how much power he had. Sauron's motives aren't completely clear but since he, like Saruman was a Maiar of Aule, we can reasonably assume that they were interested in power for its own sake. The real question is if Sauron would have done anything if Morgoth revealed his true goal to him or if he had something planned all along.
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Jul 7, 2020 09:31
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"Sure, he's a power-hungry tyrant, but if I have a position of influence think of all the good I might do. I'm smart. I'm sure to be able to steer him from his worst ideas." Tolkien understood would-be dictators quite well. If he wrote today, people would accuse him of modern allegory.
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Jul 7, 2020 11:45
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Ynglaur posted:"Sure, he's a power-hungry tyrant, but if I have a position of influence think of all the good I might do. I'm smart. I'm sure to be able to steer him from his worst ideas." Hell, Gandalf's awareness that that's how the Ring would get him was one of the first things that popped up in LotR.
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Jul 7, 2020 12:02
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gandalf legitimately freaking out over being offered the ring is great, it's a very fine piece of characterisation. facing durin's bane and his own almost certain death is less stressful to him than the prospect of having an excuse to take the ring
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Jul 7, 2020 12:55
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HIJK posted:Part of the attraction of Morgoth was how much power he had. Sauron's motives aren't completely clear but since he, like Saruman was a Maiar of Aule, we can reasonably assume that they were interested in power for its own sake. The real question is if Sauron would have done anything if Morgoth revealed his true goal to him or if he had something planned all along. "Power for its own sake" isn't really an Aule thing, though. More like power for the sake of getting things organised or getting to make things you want - Aule himself, for example, wasn't into power for its own sake, but wanted the power to make his dwarves actually live. Bret Devereaux's recent blogposts on the battle of Helm's Deep and how Saruman fucks up his generalling are interesting in that context - Saruman wants "power to order all things as we will, for that good which only the Wise can see"; he thinks he's an organisational genius but holy crap does he gently caress up strategically/operationally/tactically in so many ways. A mind of metal and wheels and powerpoint presentations does not do well in the field, it turns out.... (https://acoup.blog/2020/06/19/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-viii-the-mind-of-saruman/ is the most recent in that series and has links to the rest.)
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Jul 7, 2020 18:44
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V. Illych L. posted:gandalf legitimately freaking out over being offered the ring is great, it's a very fine piece of characterisation. facing durin's bane and his own almost certain death is less stressful to him than the prospect of having an excuse to take the ring But doesn't Gandalf handle the ring himself about two minutes before freaking out about Frodo trying to hand it to him again? Always seemed weird to me.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:50
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Imagined posted:But doesn't Gandalf handle the ring himself about two minutes before freaking out about Frodo trying to hand it to him again? Always seemed weird to me. There's a big difference between handling it and taking formal ownership of it.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:51
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Still, I thought the way the movie did it made more sense, that Gandalf would avoid touching it entirely and make Frodo do it.
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Jul 7, 2020 21:58
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I really liked the way the movie handled the tension of the transfer of the Ring from Bilbo to Gandalf — ominous drum-roll type music while he smilingly holds out the envelope, then sticking it hurriedly out of sight like "whew that was a key turning point of history right there"
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Jul 7, 2020 22:05
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There are certain things in the films I enjoy over Tolkien himself. Smaug being able to see and feel Bilbo even when he's wearing the Ring is in the book but the way the film does it where Smaug knows exactly where he is makes him a lot more threatening. But then the rube Goldberg action scene and the heat resistant dwarves happened. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 22:22
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The lotr movies get a lot right, and a lot wrong. And as I've said before, overall are Real Good, to me. The Hobbit mostly sucks with some cool stuff but is mostly a lesson in how.hollywood fucks things up.
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Jul 7, 2020 22:43
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Data Graham posted:I really liked the way the movie handled the tension of the transfer of the Ring from Bilbo to Gandalf — ominous drum-roll type music while he smilingly holds out the envelope, then sticking it hurriedly out of sight like "whew that was a key turning point of history right there" Yeah. It's been pointed out many times by better commentators than me, but the way Peter Jackson made the ring its own character was a brilliant innovation on the book.
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Jul 8, 2020 00:21
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Data Graham posted:I really liked the way the movie handled the tension of the transfer of the Ring from Bilbo to Gandalf — ominous drum-roll type music while he smilingly holds out the envelope, then sticking it hurriedly out of sight like "whew that was a key turning point of history right there" theres a little pause after ian mckellen says like "i would use this ring from a desire to do good" where you can see he's tempted for a moment and imagining what he'd do with it and i thought that was a nice touch, i don't like the movies otherwise
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Jul 8, 2020 11:22
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Sauron being a Aule dude was something Jrrt made up way later after LOTR right
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Jul 8, 2020 13:00
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euphronius posted:Sauron being a Aule dude was something Jrrt made up way later after LOTR right I think this would have been first mentioned in the Annals of Aman, which would be post LOTR’s writing but maybe not very long after? (so before its publication) Christopher doesn’t date it iirc.
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Jul 8, 2020 13:30
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if i could see a screen adaptation of anything tolkien wrote itd be ar pharazons invasion of valinor
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Jul 8, 2020 13:45
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Shibawanko posted:if i could see a screen adaptation of anything tolkien wrote itd be ar pharazons invasion of valinor Well that's likely going to happen in the Amazon series so congrats
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Jul 8, 2020 14:03
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Shibawanko posted:if i could see a screen adaptation of anything tolkien wrote itd be ar pharazons invasion of valinor This, except the whole Akallabeth story
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Jul 9, 2020 00:13
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Well that's likely going to happen in the Amazon series so congrats I hope the new Amazon series is just five long seasons of Tom Bombadil minding his own business. Alternate idea: The New Adventures of the Entwives.
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Jul 9, 2020 00:20
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Tom Bombadil has never minded his business in his life, all that he does is tramp around singing until he finds some local fauna/flora/dark undead he can tell to gently caress off
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Jul 9, 2020 00:42
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:The "they" in that quote is Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas. So which of them is carrying around a comb? Or is it Boromir's?? Is the comb magical or ancient in any way? Is this addressed in a letter or something? All 3 have their own combs and took turns fixing him up and crying and kissing him skasion posted:Tom Bombadil has never minded his business in his life, all that he does is tramp around singing until he finds some local fauna/flora/dark undead he can tell to gently caress off Old forest business IS his business
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Jul 9, 2020 03:15
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skasion posted:Tom Bombadil has never minded his business in his life, all that he does is tramp around singing until he finds some local fauna/flora/dark undead he can tell to gently caress off I could swear that Treebarf talks about him and says he doesn't give a poo poo
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Jul 9, 2020 03:41
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Well that's likely going to happen in the Amazon series so congrats yeah i guess they might if they really are going to set it in the second age, it's a weird idea for a mainstream tv series, and im sure theyre going to gently caress it up tonally. i meant more that i want someone who knows what theyre doing to adapt it, or even make a stage adaptation or something
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Jul 9, 2020 12:38
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skasion posted:I think this would have been first mentioned in the Annals of Aman, which would be post LOTR’s writing but maybe not very long after? (so before its publication) Christopher doesn’t date it iirc. He does seem kind of weird for an Aule dude - he makes rings and fortresses and whatnot, sure, but his primary interest seems to be loving with people's minds, whether with Rings, wraith copies of their wives, sending werewolves to eat one of them per night or just using his words. Though this may just be Tolkien's thinking on how technology can facilitate being an utter poo poo to people or however he would have phrased it (much more classily, obviously).
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Jul 9, 2020 14:37
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How many Great Rings were there? Just the Nine, and the Three, and the One? Gandalf says in Book 1 that he knew at once (i.e. in 'The Hobbit') that Gollum's ring must be a Great Ring. If that's true, his delay in finding out at once which one it is or doing something about it seems insane. Dude waited decades.
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Jul 9, 2020 15:01
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Imagined posted:How many Great Rings were there? Just the Nine, and the Three, and the One? Gandalf says in Book 1 that he knew at once (i.e. in 'The Hobbit') that Gollum's ring must be a Great Ring. If that's true, his delay in finding out at once which one it is or doing something about it seems insane. Dude waited decades. The Seven (for the dwarves) were Great Rings too.
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Jul 9, 2020 15:24
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Yeah, that has always confused me, because Gandalf said all the other Great Rings had gems set into them. So if it was obviously a Great Ring and didn't have a gem in it wouldn't that mean it is most likely the One Ring. Even taking into account a potential previously unknown Great Ring. Like the only reason he gives for laying off is 'Saruman said it wasn't possible,' and when you have that much evidence that it's the One Ring that's a damned odd decision to make. Was Saruman using the voice on Gandalf to keep him from looking for the ring? That's the only thing that makes any sense.
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Jul 9, 2020 15:37
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sweet geek swag posted:Yeah, that has always confused me, because Gandalf said all the other Great Rings had gems set into them. So if it was obviously a Great Ring and didn't have a gem in it wouldn't that mean it is most likely the One Ring. Even taking into account a potential previously unknown Great Ring. Like the only reason he gives for laying off is 'Saruman said it wasn't possible,' and when you have that much evidence that it's the One Ring that's a damned odd decision to make. Was Saruman using the voice on Gandalf to keep him from looking for the ring? That's the only thing that makes any sense. Saruman had also studied the Rings for a really long time, he was the Middle Earth expert (besides Sauron) on them. It's plausible that Gandalf only learned the fact about the gems after Saruman told him it wasn't possible and he said to himself "seems sus". I don't have the text in front of me, could be wrong about the order of events here.
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Jul 9, 2020 15:39
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Gandalf’s boss, who knows more than him and is an expert on the topic, told him it couldn’t possibly be the one. All he has for evidence is that he feels kind of iffy about the ring. He didn’t establish that it really could have been the one until he and Aragorn got hold of Gollum.
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Jul 9, 2020 15:47
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sat on my keys! posted:Saruman had also studied the Rings for a really long time, he was the Middle Earth expert (besides Sauron) on them. It's plausible that Gandalf only learned the fact about the gems after Saruman told him it wasn't possible and he said to himself "seems sus". I don't have the text in front of me, could be wrong about the order of events here. Gandalf never says when he learns about the gems, though considering that he carries one of the elven rings and is at least familiar with the dwarven ones prior to the Hobbit it seems likely that he should have had this information before that point. It is possible he just wasn't curious about that subject of course and didn't follow up on it until it became significant of course, but that seems unlikely.
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Jul 9, 2020 15:50
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Imagined posted:How many Great Rings were there? Just the Nine, and the Three, and the One? Gandalf says in Book 1 that he knew at once (i.e. in 'The Hobbit') that Gollum's ring must be a Great Ring. If that's true, his delay in finding out at once which one it is or doing something about it seems insane. Dude waited decades. He only knew for sure the night of bilbos birthday
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Jul 9, 2020 16:00
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Saruman had convinced him previously that the one ring had been taken by the valar to the bottom of the ocean
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Jul 9, 2020 16:01
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What exactly did Sauron get out of taking power intrinsic to himself an then imbuing it into a physical object? Like that just seems an absurd thing to do if there was no benefit. I figured it was some way for him to focus his power to better apply it but I don't think it ever got really spelled out in LOTR.
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Jul 9, 2020 16:31
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shirunei posted:What exactly did Sauron get out of taking power intrinsic to himself an then imbuing it into a physical object? Like that just seems an absurd thing to do if there was no benefit. I figured it was some way for him to focus his power to better apply it but I don't think it ever got really spelled out in LOTR. He was more powerful with the ring than he was before he made it. Think of the ring as a machine; if you have the wherewithal to make a lever you can lift more weight with it than you could have lifted without it. The catch is that if what you want to “lift” is the souls of other people, you gotta put your soul into the lever too.
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Jul 9, 2020 16:47
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euphronius posted:Saruman had convinced him previously that the one ring had been taken by the valar to the bottom of the ocean I know he said that it was washed out the Anduin into the sea, but I like to think that Gandalf ran across Maglor and asked him about it just for Maglor to go "poo poo, another one?"
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Jul 9, 2020 17:01
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The sons of faenor are my favourite poo poo seriously. The terrible oath, kinslaying and the overall suicidal nature of those particular noldor. Magnifique.
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Jul 9, 2020 19:34
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I thought Gandalf only established that it was a Great Ring once Bilbo's unaging became flagrant enough that he couldn't attribute it to mundane causes? e: Seems like there's a contradiction here: The Shadow of the Past posted:I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first. Shouldn't Gandalf expect it to give long life if he was sure it was a Great Ring? YaketySass fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jul 9, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 19:43
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euphronius posted:He only knew for sure the night of bilbos birthday He only knew for sure that it was evil the night of Bilbo's birthday, but his exact quote talking to Frodo about when he first saw it during the events of 'The Hobbit' is something like "...how Gollum came to possess a Great Ring, for plainly it was, that much was clear from the first..." and he doesn't actually KNOW it's the One until he comes back to the Shire years after Bilbo's birthday and performs the last test of throwing it in the fire and looking for the inscription. Imagined fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Jul 9, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 19:43
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That was another neato thing the movie did in that Bag End scene, where the Ring had been in the fire and Gandalf asked Frodo to tell him whether there was any writing on it. He's like "No... no..." while Gandalf is turned away, looking relieved. Then Frodo says "Wait..." and Gandalf's eyes close like "ohhhhhh fuk"
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Jul 9, 2020 19:48
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