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Arivia posted:Also I'm wary of saying those mentions of LotFP are endorsements/ads for it. Writing generic OSR clone text is surprisingly hard (I tried recently for a couple things), and LotFP is weirdly different enough that calling out its differences makes sense. Putting compatibility notes in for the system the module was originally written for is just good form imo. as far as there's a technical argument to be made that the mechanical aspects of LOTFP are in fact different enough from bog-standard OSR for the clarification to actually be made, that the author still cares enough about LOTFP to make the clarification is kind of the point bluntly, I wouldn't give a poo poo if a module I wrote had zero guidelines about how to convert the AC values to LOTFP-compatibility, because I think anyone patronizing LOTFP should go jump in a lake in the first place. Stuart may well think otherwise, but that's precisely the thing I'd have an issue with
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Jul 7, 2020 16:10
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Yeah, main show and the chat show thing are both p clear, as are the casts twitter feeds really. Unless you want the cast to literally name people, which would be hugely hypocritical, in stopping it i guess.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:13
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If you're not naming people, those people will always every single time believe the admonishment is for someone else.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:15
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gradenko_2000 posted:as far as there's a technical argument to be made that the mechanical aspects of LOTFP are in fact different enough from bog-standard OSR for the clarification to actually be made, that the author still cares enough about LOTFP to make the clarification is kind of the point It's on my brain for a bunch of reasons but I'm just going to point over to A Wizard again, where it just goes 'this does 2d6/Very High for whatever system you're using damage' or 'This is a DC 16/Hard test'. Which was super helpful and very good.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:15
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Arivia posted:Yes, this Patrick is actually spelled Stuart and is a OSR game designer who generally writes very good things but has a history of bad associations (was a collaborator/friend of That doesn't apply to poo poo like "hey, if you don't have survival rules, how about LEGENDS OF THE FLAME PRINCESS instead of a more generic thing?"
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Jul 7, 2020 16:18
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before a very public breakup).
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gradenko_2000 posted:as far as there's a technical argument to be made that the mechanical aspects of LOTFP are in fact different enough from bog-standard OSR for the clarification to actually be made, that the author still cares enough about LOTFP to make the clarification is kind of the point There are a lot of people still running LotFP out there for various reasons (it was the popular B/X retroclone before OSE), and DCO was presented as a LotFP module originally (not that the original cared much about that either) so many of its reviews and conversations about it refer to it being built for LotFP with those quirks. That section isn't only speaking about issues with LotFP either; the gold versus silver standard stuff comes up more frequently with the GLOG, for example. I don't blame Stuart for not wanting to submit DCO to another compatibility license in order to reference some other retroclone; he's done the work to genericize it and notes its clone of origin for those who expect it to be compatible with that clone. It's not an endorsement, it's trying to clearly address the thicket of compatibility issues that exist between various B/X retroclones and I honestly can't think of a better way to do it. An endorsement would be "this is for LotFP" and I believe that's not the case with the new printing at all. Zereth posted:That doesn't apply to poo poo like "hey, if you don't have survival rules, how about LEGENDS OF THE FLAME PRINCESS instead of a more generic thing?" Yes it does though? Like I don't have comparable rules in my copy of the OSE Core Rules (there's a little bit, but nothing substantial), so I'd appreciate knowing the more in depth rules that are important to the adventure. Also look at the quote, he's not saying go buy LotFP, he's saying "here are the rules for survival from LotFP if you need them." Arivia fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 16:21
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moths posted:If you're not naming people, those people will always every single time believe the admonishment is for someone else. Problem is that platforms like Twitter and, to a lesser extent, Tumblr have no actual tools for moderation within communities and are far too... wide? It's not like a forum where if someone gets called out by name a handful of frequent posters say "hey get hosed idiot." If Matt Mercer calls someone out by name, even if they're an rear end in a top hat that's tens of thousands of people jumping on an rear end in a top hat with like 30 followers. That's why nowadays you may see a few of twitter personalities be very careful with how they try to call out behaviors.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:37
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 16:39
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I think that once you are raising multiple millions of dollars for an animated series and have stuff like an officially licensed comic from a major publisher you really can't be just a group of friends anymore. Critical Role is a business venture now. Period. Not that they are not still pals, but this just is not the same. Unless Critical Role has a discord or forum with a paid moderation staff that they control as an official space for interaction they are not going to have any more control over a screaming mob of their more passionate fans than the average person totally outside the community.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:50
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Lord_Hambrose posted:Unless Critical Role has a discord or forum with a paid moderation staff that they control as an official space for interaction they are not going to have any more control over a screaming mob of their more passionate fans than the average person totally outside the community. This is about where I am at with it. With enough people there are going to be profound poo poo heads as part of it, and you try and do your best to stop it from spreading. But you cannot fully control everything people say that is associated with you. You'd need a level of control over people that is impossible to achieve.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Twitter allows you to block someone. If they blocked this person, maybe with a DM saying "hey, we're blocking you because you're a poo poo", would send a clear message. I'm sure they have blocked people in their "community" but that doesn't stop community on community violence, or violence on those outside the community on Twitter and Tumblr Dexo fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 17:09
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They can do all that and also tell their fans to do the same to the lovely people. Of course they could also do more than meekly hint that things should be better. Direct and explicit words can do way more than "Please let's all be better."
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Jul 7, 2020 17:09
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 17:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Hard to stay part of a "community" when you're blocked from the accounts the community is built around. Do you know how twitter works? My general belief is that someone or some brand with 100k+ viewers or subs should never leverage that to some individual persons account who has like 0-500 followers. Dexo fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 17:18
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 17:19
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Hard to stay part of a "community" when you're blocked from the accounts the community is built around. Not when you can super easily just make a new account.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:20
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 17:22
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yes. Do you? Yes which is why I asked. Because your solution is naive at best. If they Block them from twitter, and twitch all the cast member and all the brand accounts. They still can interact with the discourse on Twitter Nothing is stopping them from using #criticalrole to talk to and harass those they want to harass, even id Critical Role even calls them out it's not like 1 everyone is going to see that tweet, 2. everyone that will see that tweet will block them and 3. new people tweeting about it will know. And 4 they can create new accounts. So yeah once again I ask do you know how twitter works?
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Jul 7, 2020 17:25
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Admiral Joeslop posted:They can do all that and also tell their fans to do the same to the lovely people. Of course they could also do more than meekly hint that things should be better. Direct and explicit words can do way more than "Please let's all be better." They would absolutely get in more trouble by naming individual fans, even if those fans were being jerks. They would be seen as directing harassment towards people with way less social power.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:26
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 17:27
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The critical role Community is just a bunch of people who tweet about the poo poo, and post fanart and poo poo. There isn't some centralized controlled location they go.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's so easy to persist in a community when you have to create an entirely new account every few days because you're a shithead and get blocked. Yeah, it is. E: dexo is far more patient than me and explained a multitude of ways to get around any blocking or banning on social media platforms
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Jul 7, 2020 17:31
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You're right, there's absolutely nothing they can do, it's impossible to DM people and explicitly tell them they're poo poo, nothing to be done but mealy-mouthed whining to please if you would be so kind don't harass anyone uwu. Personal DM's wouldn't phase these people and there are enough followers now that it would likely take more than one full-time position to manage these DM's and banning across multiple platforms.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You're right, there's absolutely nothing they can do, it's impossible to DM people and explicitly tell them they're poo poo, nothing to be done but mealy-mouthed whining to please if you would be so kind don't harass anyone uwu. 1.That's something they could do, but doesn't have anything to do with the nonsense use case of twitter you were suggesting about blocking them and that somehow meaning they no longer have access to the community. 2. You can DM and tell them they are poo poo and should stop, hell maybe they do I dunno it's private messaging, but assuming they don't it doesn't do anything to protect the community when that person decides to brush it off and continue to poo poo post. Like you have plenty of people who create Twitter accounts just to be assholes to people online.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:36
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 17:40
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Edit: that was mean and unnecessarily snarky, on my part. Sincere Apologies. They can and should reinforce it and go way harder more often than they do and not just when something blows up big. But online communities loving suck, and like my stupid rear end just did are prone to dumb needless escalations. Dexo fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 17:43
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 18:45
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Jimbozig posted:They would absolutely get in more trouble by naming individual fans, even if those fans were being jerks. They would be seen as directing harassment towards people with way less social power. I should clarify that by direct and explicit words I meant they should use those against companies and people like Mearls, not lovely Twitter trolls. Those could just use a general call out and also encouragement for non-lovely people to call them out*. I didn't word it very clearly, sorry. *This also can be a problem so
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Jul 7, 2020 19:02
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I mean, there's the question of why Critical Role built such a toxic fanbase in the first place. I look at Friends at the Table or The Adventure Zone and they have far less noxious fans. Yes, the TAZ fans can get a bit nasty at times, but I've heard of a lot less accounts of them lashing out at folks outside of the community. Meanwhile, Critical Role has somehow managed to create a set of circumstances where its fans are fanatical and toxic. And no, not all of their fans are that way, but enough are that it is a known problem. I really think that hiring a cultural consultant and listening to their advice could go a long way. I also think that stop playing D&D would have a massive impact.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:28
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Meinberg posted:I really think that hiring a cultural consultant and listening to their advice could go a long way. I also think that stop playing D&D would have a massive impact. I mean, partially I think that trying to make a welcoming atmosphere for folks often leads to difficulties because of poo poo like the Geek Social Fallacies.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:37
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Meinberg posted:I mean, there's the question of why Critical Role built such a toxic fanbase in the first place. I look at Friends at the Table or The Adventure Zone and they have far less noxious fans. Yes, the TAZ fans can get a bit nasty at times, but I've heard of a lot less accounts of them lashing out at folks outside of the community. Meanwhile, Critical Role has somehow managed to create a set of circumstances where its fans are fanatical and toxic. And no, not all of their fans are that way, but enough are that it is a known problem. Size. It's size. I think it's a good idea to hire someone as a sensitivity and cultural consultant yes. That's probably something any company formed that blows up around a group of white friends definitely needs But also it's Size and the space these people came from. TAZ popular but not quite CR large, and like you can see it in that community from time to time. And FaTT I would have to guess(I don't follow TAZ) is smaller than TAZ. Despite being well supported because the patreon model allows for people who gently caress with them heavy to support them directly. My guess as to their fandom sourcing is that the heavy hitters and popular names on the cast Mercer, Bailey, O'Brien, and Ashley all came from video games and Anime. Their core fandom started from people who started in those extremely toxic fanbase mediums. Like Laura Bailey is getting death threats for playing a role in LoU2(which I have issues with how silly Druckmann and Baker have been regarding crit of the game, but Laura's death threats aren't from that. Anime fans and video game fans are the worst. I doubt it has much to do with them playing 5e. Dexo fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 19:43
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The Adventure Zone was good in spite of using 5e, much the same way that CR "uses" 5e. I haven't listened much to the newest season or whatever they call it of TAZ but I enjoy the brothers whole shtick in general and I would listen to them play pretty much anything. There are tons of people that listen just for the story or the funny and don't give two shits about the system. But that also doesn't mean their words couldn't have an impact. I just hate seeing a group so entrenched within the entire thing, that wield a lot of (relative) power and they do very little with that power to make things better for other people.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:49
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Critical Role fans have passed a loyalty test with every scandal that comes up. A lot of them have doubled down after already doubling down repeatedly. They're primed to look the other way at lovely behavior. So of course they're going to play 5e.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:52
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I hope the Rude Tales of Magic folks switch systems, especially since they're such funny improvisers that they already barely touch the 5e mechanics.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:56
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moths posted:Critical Role fans have passed a loyalty test with every scandal that comes up. A lot of them have doubled down after already doubling down repeatedly. This just seems like "no smoke without fire". Also, something I do notice is that when people don't like a thing they like to frame it as bad morally when the reason they don't like it is something else entirely. I don't like a whole bunch of things, but I think a big problem is that when people "death of the author" things they do not like they often try and make it a moral judgement on people who do like it. I don't particularly like Hamilton, the songs didn't really grab me, but the amount of people who try and make it a moral failing to like Hamilton is weird as hell.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:57
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 19:58
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BinaryDoubts posted:I hope the Rude Tales of Magic folks switch systems, especially since they're such funny improvisers that they already barely touch the 5e mechanics. I'm pretty sure Branson would wet his pants if he read the SotDL book, the flavor screams RToM. Also everyone should listen to RToM.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:05
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moths posted:Critical Role fans have passed a loyalty test with every scandal that comes up. A lot of them have doubled down after already doubling down repeatedly. No critical role "scandals" have been anything at all that requires a loyalty test. What have they doubled down on? Unless there is something I'm just unaware of. Like the way people talk about Critical Role comes off as if they have committed some great sin or crime that I just haven't seen or heard.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:06
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Pretty damning of those mechanics, I'd say. For sure. It's clear they don't have a ton of RPG experience in general outside of the D&D sphere, but it still made me pretty salty when in one of the bonus "cast chat"-type episodes, they all talked about how great D&D is for storytelling. Read another book, literally any other one, I'm begging you! (Still listen to Rude Tales, it's so good!) e: you could literally give them a list of funny spell names, let the wizard characters pick two each, then just have everyone flip a coin instead of all other rolls and checks and the podcast would work just as well. BinaryDoubts fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 20:07
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BinaryDoubts posted:I hope the Rude Tales of Magic folks switch systems, especially since they're such funny improvisers that they already barely touch the 5e mechanics. Maybe I'm just cynical, but in my experience people who barely actually touch the rules in D&D are less likely to move to indie systems, not more.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:11
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