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In Canada you have to do all of the above - law school, bar exam, and apprenticeship (known as Articling). Generally paid poverty wages to work 100 hours a week as a mandatory step into the profession. Often many people can't find an Articling position until many months out of law school (I imagine the pandemic will make this even worse). It's, uh, not great.
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Jul 7, 2020 01:42
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| # ? May 22, 2024 07:22 |
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Kim Kardashian is doing it (or finished by now idk) out in California.
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Jul 7, 2020 01:55
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First Lady in training
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Jul 7, 2020 01:59
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I self-studied for, and passed an out-of-state bar exam, before I sat for the Texas bar exam (where I went to law school.) I would not have considered myself qualified to practice in that other state.
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Jul 7, 2020 02:21
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Re Congress people - just having a jd doesn’t make you a licensed attorney and Ethical standards in government are not the same as professional standards for attorneys Don’t get confused by the word ethics. It actually means something to attorneys. It’s not just “do good stuff” or whatever
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Jul 7, 2020 03:21
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Right. It’s also about being very clear about under what circumstances you can have sex with your clients.
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Jul 7, 2020 04:04
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thehoodie posted:In Canada you have to do all of the above - law school, bar exam, and apprenticeship (known as Articling). Generally paid poverty wages to work 100 hours a week as a mandatory step into the profession. Often many people can't find an Articling position until many months out of law school (I imagine the pandemic will make this even worse). It's, uh, not great. Years, in some cases, if they find an articling position at all. My ex gave up on trying to find an articling position, after about two years of trying; there was a program in Toronto that was supposed to provide the hours needed for articling, so that more people could get to the point where they could take the bar exam, but it was canceled about three months before my ex could enroll. In her case, about half the problem was that we started looking in Cape Breton, and all the lawyers there at the time were either starting to wrap up for retirement, or specialized to the point where they weren't allowed to take articling students because the students wouldn't be able to get a broad enough experience. The other half was that there were pretty much just four lawyers in the area, and finding anyone else would have required going up to Halifax if we were determined to stay in the Maritimes.
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Jul 7, 2020 04:26
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Lol I didn't become a lawyer when I graduated because I didn't want to jump through all the hoops to get an articled clerkship but luckily (or.... possibly unluckily since the downside is now I am a lawyer) they changed it to "do a course and 75 days in an office"
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Jul 7, 2020 04:44
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I think a forced internship is a great idea; i tell anyone who asks about going to law school (if I can't talk them out of it) that they have to try to spend some time working at a law firm to get an idea of what it's really like. Plus, law school doesn't teach you how to actually file poo poo, manage deadlines, or deal with clients.
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Jul 7, 2020 05:13
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thehoodie posted:In Canada you have to do all of the above - law school, bar exam, and apprenticeship (known as Articling). Generally paid poverty wages to work 100 hours a week as a mandatory step into the profession. Often many people can't find an Articling position until many months out of law school (I imagine the pandemic will make this even worse). It's, uh, not great. Yup, same. In Norway you get a five year master's in law, take an oath, graduate as a jurist at one of three universities or you can gently caress right off. Then, you get to work an apprenticeship for at the minimum of two years (soon to be three) with requirements for mandatory training, a set number of court hours where under supervision you are sole counsel (limiting apprenticeships to app. Judges, attorneys and prosecutors), then a bar exam with a pretty high fail rate and another oath. Soon they are adding 6 more months of university on top of that. Don't go to law school. Nice piece of fish fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 06:49
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euphronius posted:Re Congress people - just having a jd doesn’t make you a licensed attorney and Ethical standards in government are not the same as professional standards for attorneys Yeah. Attorney ethics are a Big Deal that are actually enforced, because big surprise lawyers really like to rules lawyer other lawyers. We have some politicians with law degrees too (although the general education level is abysmal for people who're supposed to be making complicated, reasoned and informed decisions) but not a whole heck of a lot of licensed attorneys.
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Jul 7, 2020 06:53
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Internships in a bunch of different professions are really good ideas. But they should be paid. It's wrong to demand people work for free, and it's counterproductive to having a diverse workforce to insist that only those with the accumulated personal wealth to work for free for an extended period of time be allowed to join the profession. I did an internship before becoming a technical writer, but it was 8 weeks, and it was paid. Not that it was anything like as rigorous as you'd do for a law internship, but I'm a big believer in paying people for their work.
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Jul 7, 2020 07:14
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Well in my case the apprenticeship (in fact all of them) are fairly well paid because we have labour laws and unions and the bar association keeps tabs on that whole mess. But the hours, well let's just say labour laws don't seem to apply there for some reason.
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Jul 7, 2020 08:52
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Yeah in Canada lawyers managed to get legislated exemptions from employment standards law. Combine this with desperate students who will basically do anything to ensure they can become a lawyer and you get basically indentured servitude. Fish, is there any sort of organized way the apprenticeships are set up? Or is it just free for all, whatever students can find? Personally I think the Canadian system would be a lot better in terms of quality and opportunity if law schools and/or law societies directly supported the Articling process.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:08
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Leperflesh posted:Internships in a bunch of different professions are really good ideas. But they should be paid. It's wrong to demand people work for free, and it's counterproductive to having a diverse workforce to insist that only those with the accumulated personal wealth to work for free for an extended period of time be allowed to join the profession. US law school students can now simultaneously receive credit and be paid for internship-type experiences. There are still a lot of "we will pay you with experience" deals out there though.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:27
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In the USA teachers have a deal where they do a year of teaching for “free” and it works ok
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Jul 7, 2020 17:35
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euphronius posted:In the USA teachers have a deal where they do a year of teaching for “free” and it works ok do you just mean lawyer teachers? Because for teachers in general, there's a massive nationwide shortage
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Jul 7, 2020 17:44
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euphronius posted:In the USA teachers have a deal where they do a year of teaching for “free” and it works ok Do you mean the student teaching requirements? They are in a classroom with another teacher who is responsible for them, helping them manage the classroom, and mentoring them. Also it is part time and built into their certification program. Some schools use it as a recruitment pool though.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:26
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Leperflesh posted:do you just mean lawyer teachers? Because for teachers in general, there's a massive nationwide shortage There is a shortage of STEM, ESL, and special education teachers. So much so that if you don't want to teach ESL or Special Ed full time, you shouldn't consider certification because you will be shoved into that role even of they job you get hired for is not that. There is no shortage of English or PE teachers.
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Jul 7, 2020 19:30
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therobit posted:There is a shortage of STEM, ESL, and special education teachers. So much so that if you don't want to teach ESL or Special Ed full time, you shouldn't consider certification because you will be shoved into that role even of they job you get hired for is not that. There is no shortage of English or PE teachers. Broadly there is a severe shortage of credentialed teachers. I'm sure that shortage varies by role, but even general education credentialed teachers (such as for primary school) are in very short supply. Naturally this affects poverty districts the most. https://www.epi.org/publication/the...-market-series/ IMO requiring teachers to spend a year teaching for free is not "working ok" given that we have a severe shortage. Teachers are generally underpaid, overworked, and the dropout rate is high, even for credentialed teachers. Every obstacle and difficulty we place in the path of becoming a career credentialed teacher makes the situation worse. Maybe if the prospect of becoming a teacher didn't require doing a bunch of work for free, the situation would be a little better.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:02
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therobit posted:Do you mean the student teaching requirements? They are in a classroom with another teacher who is responsible for them, helping them manage the classroom, and mentoring them. Also it is part time and built into their certification program. Yeah That is what an internship should be like It’s still free labor though which is bad. They should be paid a per diem on the days they teach
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Jul 7, 2020 20:10
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Leperflesh posted:Broadly there is a severe shortage of credentialed teachers. I'm sure that shortage varies by role, but even general education credentialed teachers (such as for primary school) are in very short supply. Naturally this affects poverty districts the most. I think pay and working conditions, especially for the first 5 years, are the real issues. Even masters-credentialed teachers take 3 years to get a handle on the job and 5 years to be any good. Removing a 6 month student teaching requirement would further increase the washout rate, which is really high to begin with. I'm on the west coast so maybe it's different in flyover county, but if you don't have a master's here good luck getting a job at all unless you are stem, ESL, or special ed certified. You may wind up in a poorly managed title 1 school with no resources and no help (this happened to someone I know). Veteran teachers bire out of that as soon as they can because who wants to do that? So you get title 1 schools with the newest, greenest teachers and administrators who were given the post as either a punishment or a proving ground.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:14
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I thought I was clear that I think that teaching requirement should be paid, not removed? Becuase I'm advocating paying for internships and residencies etc., as opposed to requiring people to do work for free as a gatekeeping barrier for their chosen career.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:17
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Leperflesh posted:I thought I was clear that I think that teaching requirement should be paid, not removed? Becuase I'm advocating paying for internships and residencies etc., as opposed to requiring people to do work for free as a gatekeeping barrier for their chosen career. The thing is they aren't removing any work off anyone's plate when they are student teaching. School districts wouldn't pay for it because they have a full time teacher they are already paying to supervise it all.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:28
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therobit posted:The thing is they aren't removing any work off anyone's plate when they are student teaching. School districts wouldn't pay for it because they have a full time teacher they are already paying to supervise it all. The state should pay directly, then. Or a federal program, if states can't afford it. I'm extremely not going to accept the idea that we can't afford to pay teachers, or pay workers who are working on becoming a teacher.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:29
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In the world where you eliminate unpaid student teaching, you would have had to pretty much start from scratch with the educational system as it relates to teachers and classrooms already. Not to make classrooms function without the student teachers, but to function with them as paid employees actually doing work. You'd probably have to switch to team teaching every class and reducing student to staff ratios. If this is pie in the sky let's change everything, then fine. But requiring they be paid in absence of sweeping educational reforms will hurt everyone. Edit: yeah I mean good luck getting that to happen. Maybe a good idea in practice but again at that point until nearly every other news of the education system has been addressed I don't see it happening and there are better things to spend money on.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:32
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Is this where the experts on posting law are? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=1&threadid=3928980&pagenumber=1069&perpage=40#post506307210
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Jul 7, 2020 20:36
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therobit posted:In the world where you eliminate unpaid student teaching, you would have had to pretty much start from scratch with the educational system as it relates to teachers and classrooms already. Not to make classrooms function without the student teachers, but to function with them as paid employees actually doing work. You'd probably have to switch to team teaching every class and reducing student to staff ratios. If this is pie in the sky let's change everything, then fine. But requiring they be paid in absence of sweeping educational reforms will hurt everyone. "It's not possible" is a different argument than "it shouldn't be done" and this is probably not the right place for either, but I feel like I've been understood; the discussion was about unpaid lawyer internships, and comparing that to unpaid work by student teachers was useful to explore. I'm sticking to my position but I think I understand yours so we're good. hobbesmaster posted:Is this where the experts on posting law are? I feel like that guy admitting that he did chargebacks and recovered his money kind of undermines his desire to sue for... a refund, I guess? Also no class action lawyer is going to spend years going after a small business with no significant assets to try to recover :tenbux: for thousands of unidentified and probably unidentifiable banned goons. IANAL though so maybe he's totally found the loophole and it's gonna happen.
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Jul 7, 2020 20:44
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hobbesmaster posted:Is this where the experts on posting law are? Lol
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Jul 7, 2020 21:18
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What’ll it take to get that guy’s rap sheet read aloud, item by item, in court? That should be the real goal, at any cost.
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Jul 7, 2020 21:26
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hobbesmaster posted:Is this where the experts on posting law are? Definitely a job for Leonard J. Crabs!
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Jul 7, 2020 21:46
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Bad Munki posted:What’ll it take to get that guy’s rap sheet read aloud, item by item, in court? That should be the real goal, at any cost. "Exhibit F, line 26, Probated for 6 hours for: 'Why's the Mexican cock gotta be stinky?'. Please answer the question to the best of your ability, Mr. Jake P."
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Jul 7, 2020 22:53
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Look, if you're going to go into a career as prestigious and that pays as well as... *looks at hand* Teaching... you should expect to have to do a year of unpaid work. Just look at Residencies for Doctors. Same idea. When you're making that kind of dosh, you should expect to have to sacrifice for it.
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Jul 8, 2020 00:11
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blarzgh posted:Plus, law school doesn't teach you how to actually file poo poo, manage deadlines, or deal with clients. Every university course should have a semester long course titled 'Home economics, but for white color jobs'. gently caress I truly hate people who just create a rabbit Warren of folders and fill it like hoarder in a hedge Maze.
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Jul 8, 2020 04:42
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Student teachers don’t do a year of unpaid work Maybe a few months But they should be paid nonetheless
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Jul 8, 2020 04:47
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Thanatosian posted:Look, if you're going to go into a career as prestigious and that pays as well as... *looks at hand* Teaching... you should expect to have to do a year of unpaid work. Doctors in residency make 80k/y, but it is 2-4 years depending on specialty.
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Jul 8, 2020 04:50
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Xenoborg posted:Doctors in residency make 80k/y, but it is 2-4 years depending on specialty. I’m curious where you got your 80k number. On the plus side, there’s been a strong shift in mentality away from abusing the residents with 24-hour shifts or similar. At some point, people started realizing that’s not actually good for anyone involved and just because the previous generation had to suffer through, that doesn’t mean the next generation should. I don’t know if it’s system-wide but at least in some areas/fields, there’s a max single shift length and a required ratio of shift to break over a longer period that must be met.
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Jul 8, 2020 04:58
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My sister is 4th year resident and that what she makes in Saint Louis. Google says 50-70 is common for first years.
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Jul 8, 2020 05:30
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Yeah, I was gonna say, my wife was more like 50 when she started. But granted, that was in Erie, PA, and approaching a decade ago, poo poo.
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Jul 8, 2020 05:31
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This seems really bizarre if it's true, but my dad has informed me that he "found out" he's entitled to surviving ex spouse social security benefits from my mom. He and my mom married around 1981, divorced 1998, then he remarried lady #2 in 1999, divorced 2006, remarried a lady #3 in 2008, my mom died in 2012, and he divorced lady #3 in 2015. He is currently not married. They were both 54 when my mom died, and my dad is 62 now. I'm not in legal but that just sounds crazy to me, and I can't follow the logic of why someone so far removed deserves her SS. Does this sound right? A quick googling says if he remarried he isn't eligible but I'm wondering if there's something else that could be at play. Also, as her child (24 when she died), was I ever eligible? And if my dad goes ahead and claims this, does that affect my eligibility? Texas, USA. (Please keep the Jerry Springer references to a minimum; my dad is a wonderful person but his love life decisions are kind of a dumpster fire)
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Jul 8, 2020 17:03
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