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uninterrupted posted:I told you to look up Haiti like 3? months ago, and you said Haitians were too savage and bloodthirsty to have democracy and that OAS should be free to pick whoever they like and ignore the actual votes.
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Jul 8, 2020 19:25
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Squalid posted:Uh you know MAS is still practically running Bolivia right? Like even without the Presidency they are still the most powerful party. Even with Anez's fuckery that hasn't changed. I want you to apologize for supporting a fascist coup, even if we grant you the assumption of election fraud
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Jul 8, 2020 19:27
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Squalid posted:The famous style of military coup we're all familiar with, in which the army sits on its rear end for months and then the entire General staff is unceremoniously fired and sent off into exile. Really if you just ignore everything about it it was exactly the same as Brazil in 1964. This is funny because if we were looking for the most similar type of scenario to Bolivia, it is precisely Brazil in 1964. A reformist government that gets decried as communist. Mass protests by upper and middle classes spurred by the media and opposition closely aligned with the US. A military that decides to move when the few generals loyal to the president are bribed off. A legalistic pretext for removal of the president. Then, a military intervention that is supposed to be temporary. When the coup happened, they didn't even shut down congress. There were even elections for congress (though members of congress who complained too much were arrested or exiled). And any day now, there will be a new election. It's just temporary. And so you had a bunch of people who supported the initial coup also fleeing or being arrested when they woke up to what happened. And suddenly, Brazil did not have a new presidential election again until 1989. The military even kept civilian vice presidents and presidential terms. But there was always something that made it so that the election had to be cancelled or postponed or whatever.
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Jul 9, 2020 01:30
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So what the poll also presents is that either the party itself was popular enough or there was an individual in the party waiting in the wings popular enough to win the election, so there was no point in Evo Morales outflanking the constitution to get himself another term; that was an entirely self-serving move. Screwing around to buy himself a fourth term out of the two that the constitution allowed was a large part of why there was a significant amount of people willing to believe that he pulled a fraud. Because there were large crowds of people protesting, regardless of the veracity of what they were protesting, and feet in the streets are not in themselves democracy, but it sure can provide the look of a popular movement for any group that uses the mess to provide cover for seizing power.
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Jul 9, 2020 02:52
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SlothfulCobra posted:So what the poll also presents is that either the party itself was popular enough or there was an individual in the party waiting in the wings popular enough to win the election, so there was no point in Evo Morales outflanking the constitution to get himself another term; that was an entirely self-serving move. Screwing around to buy himself a fourth term out of the two that the constitution allowed was a large part of why there was a significant amount of people willing to believe that he pulled a fraud. The end goal was overthrow of the left wing government, any candidate MAS ran would have had the exact same set of attacks Morales had. The only people swayed by the extra term argument are western liberals who are predisposed to approve of any coup the New York Times tells them is acceptable. A different candidate would have been a. worse at governing due to a lack of experience, b. less popular, c. have unknown personal baggage that could damage their election chances, and/or d. secretly be bought out by the wealthy like Moreno in Equador. Really the only reasonable criticism of Morales was that he didn't purge the military, arm the populace similar to the collectivos in venezuela, and hunt down the simmering right wing and put them into reeducation camps.
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Jul 9, 2020 03:16
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What happened in Bolívia would have happened in Brazil with the exact same playbook if PT had won against Bolsonaro.
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Jul 9, 2020 03:29
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SlothfulCobra posted:So what the poll also presents is that either the party itself was popular enough or there was an individual in the party waiting in the wings popular enough to win the election, so there was no point in Evo Morales outflanking the constitution to get himself another term; that was an entirely self-serving move. Screwing around to buy himself a fourth term out of the two that the constitution allowed was a large part of why there was a significant amount of people willing to believe that he pulled a fraud. The only reason there was term limits in the Bolivian constitution was because the opposition threatened secession of the provinces they controlled. It was not in the text approved by the constituent assembly. Weird that these "uphold the constitution" folks never care about this part.
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Jul 9, 2020 04:02
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uninterrupted posted:The end goal was overthrow of the left wing government, any candidate MAS ran would have had the exact same set of attacks Morales had. The only people swayed by the extra term argument are western liberals who are predisposed to approve of any coup the New York Times tells them is acceptable. A different candidate would have been a. worse at governing due to a lack of experience, b. less popular, c. have unknown personal baggage that could damage their election chances, and/or d. secretly be bought out by the wealthy like Moreno in Equador. You've already won factually so you don't have to use ridiculous tankie rhetoric about putting your enemies in camps in response to others. It makes you look really bad, and leads third parties to think those were justified in their mistrust of you.
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Jul 9, 2020 05:16
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riseofmydick posted:You've already won factually so you don't have to use ridiculous tankie rhetoric about putting your enemies in camps in response to others. It makes you look really bad, and leads third parties to think those were justified in their mistrust of you. looks like it's advice that Morales would have profited from taking, though, soooo
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Jul 9, 2020 05:21
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brugroffil posted:I want you to apologize for supporting a fascist coup, even if we grant you the assumption of election fraud well i won't apologize for things I haven't done, that's just unreasonable.
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Jul 9, 2020 05:21
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Squalid posted:well i won't apologize for things I haven't done, that's just unreasonable. and everyone who thinks that is what you are doing is just... yeah. if you keep telling me that no, im not voting for hitler because im a nazi, i'm still going to ask you to explain why are you so scared of the communists. you're not going to convince people of your motivations by simply repeating your denials
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Jul 9, 2020 07:02
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Squalid posted:well i won't apologize for things I haven't done, that's just unreasonable. You realise people can read your old posts, right?
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Jul 9, 2020 08:33
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Squalid posted:I think it provides helpful context as to explaining why so many Morales allies in the labor unions abandoned him. If you accept that the OAS report is accurate, and yes I know a lot of people won't, but if it is, then there is strong evidence the results of the election were significantly changed by an organized and systemic campaign of fraud at multiple levels. If the Bolivian government cannot address the irregularities the only reasonable response is to hold new elections. Squalid posted:I'm asking you to explain the specific actions taken by the military yesterday, and outline the chain of events. Understanding who did what when is useful when analyzing these circumstances. Squalid posted:The issue I have with a lot of the people in the thread, is that they see it more important to take sides than actually understand what is really happening. Looking at the way you phrase things, I can tell you see this as an issue of taking sides. Why am I justifying the coup, why would I legitimate it?
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Jul 9, 2020 14:20
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joepinetree posted:The only reason there was term limits in the Bolivian constitution was because the opposition threatened secession of the provinces they controlled. It was not in the text approved by the constituent assembly. Weird that these "uphold the constitution" folks never care about this part. So you're saying that they felt so strongly about term limits that they threatened to break the country if they weren't part of the constitution, and then after the term limits were nullified, they broke the country. Who could have foreseen this turn of events. uninterrupted posted:A different candidate would have been a. worse at governing due to a lack of experience, b. less popular, c. have unknown personal baggage that could damage their election chances, and/or d. secretly be bought out by the wealthy like Moreno in Equador. The core concept of democracy is that many people have the capacity to govern, as opposed to resting everything on one man who was trained from birth for the purpose. If the most popular movement in the country can't find a second person to run for office (which they clearly could, according to that poll) something has gone horribly wrong. Even if one person is uniquely talented, modern governments are heavily distributed anyways and they could serve in some other part of government other than the very top and use their ability from there.
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Jul 9, 2020 17:07
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SlothfulCobra posted:The core concept of democracy is that many people have the capacity to govern, as opposed to resting everything on one man who was trained from birth for the purpose. If the most popular movement in the country can't find a second person to run for office (which they clearly could, according to that poll) something has gone horribly wrong. The people chose Morales and he won. Term limits undemocratically hinder people’s choices on who can run. Again, you’re taking the stance that the coup was caused by Morales running again, despite the majority of people supporting Morales. There was literally nothing MAS could have done to prevent the coup, short of hunting down the coup plotters and locking them up.
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Jul 9, 2020 17:15
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Term limits are a trash idea.
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Jul 9, 2020 17:28
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SlothfulCobra posted:So you're saying that they felt so strongly about term limits that they threatened to break the country if they weren't part of the constitution, and then after the term limits were nullified, they broke the country. This is incredibly stupid. Do you think the coup came about because of a devotion to the idea of term limits? Or were term limits and later on the coup itself about taking out the guy who opposed their material interests? You keep writing as if it was all the outcome of a difference of opinion regarding term limits.
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Jul 9, 2020 17:51
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Angela Merkel and Margaret Thatcher, well known despots clinging to power for over 8 years. (I mean okay, granted, it's thatcher, but)
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Jul 9, 2020 17:58
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Private Speech posted:Angela Merkel and Margaret Thatcher, well known despots clinging to power for over 8 years. (I mean okay, granted, it's thatcher, but) They're both white idiot. It's not the same!
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Jul 9, 2020 18:01
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What about Roosevelt and Churchill, heads of military governments at that.
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Jul 9, 2020 18:01
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Private Speech posted:What about Roosevelt and Churchill, heads of military governments at that. Again, more white people. These are all leaders of smart, stable, and advanced countries. The populace is better educated and has a far superior culture. They are the countries that Bolivia shouod strive to be, not shun. Unless Bolivia emulates what these countries do then it's backwards. It's not the same! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 9, 2020 18:04
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The people who organized an uprising to change the constitution, who invented a pretext organized ahead of time to question the election results and who organized a coup they've shown no interest in giving up would have totally been fine with MAS electing someone else. It was always about a commitment to term limits, not a bunch a racist rich people tired of poor people getting some scraps. Which is why they are totally holding elections any day now
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Jul 9, 2020 18:07
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i think you'll actually find that it was about states rights
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Jul 9, 2020 19:20
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Squalid posted:The famous style of military coup we're all familiar with, in which the army sits on its rear end for months and then the entire General staff is unceremoniously fired and sent off into exile. Really if you just ignore everything about it it was exactly the same as Brazil in 1964. This seems like especially pointless pedantry given that the role of right-wing paramilitaries in the Bolivian coup was quite well documented. They even got one of the folks in the presidential line of succession to step down by attacking his home and kidnapping his family. Yes, the military sat it out until the new government came in, so it wasn't technically a 'military coup', but it was still a violent coup.
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Jul 9, 2020 19:28
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DelilahFlowers posted:Like how you were ignored lol Like, skipped right past without a glance backwards lmao
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Jul 9, 2020 19:29
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mortons stork posted:Like, skipped right past without a glance backwards lmao almost as if the guy had no actual arguments beyond logichammer pedantry. how on earth could anyone doubt the motivations and actual beliefs of this fascist coup defender
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Jul 9, 2020 21:21
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Finally some good news from Bolivia! https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1281350920866013185
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Jul 9, 2020 23:50
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Jul 9, 2020 23:51
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oh man thanks for going back into my post history to prove i was never a coup supporter. you saved me the effort!  also lol Anez got owned (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 10, 2020 01:03
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Squalid posted:oh man thanks for going back into my post history to prove i was never a coup supporter. you saved me the effort! Technically, you claimed to take no position at all on issues like "is this a coup," rather than supporting the coup explicitly. This seems disingenuous, though; if you really didn't want to take a position, you wouldn't have posted so much about it. That, or you're the sort of person who likes making contrarian arguments, and you thought events in Bolivia made a good occasion for it. Which doesn't make you look much better! Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 01:28
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Squalid posted:oh man thanks for going back into my post history to prove i was never a coup supporter. you saved me the effort! posting where you constantly question whether or not the obvious coup was a coup and where you constantly minimize the military's involvement in the coup is actually precisely support for the coup squalid hope that helps buddy
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Jul 10, 2020 02:36
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https://twitter.com/KawsachunNews/status/1283406438375841792
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Jul 15, 2020 16:27
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Camacho's been sidelined since the coup, which is probably why there's that three-way electoral brawl between him, Mesa, and Anez that's letting the MAS cruise ahead. Going to be interesting to see if any more 'mainstream' leaders follow up on this.
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Jul 15, 2020 17:35
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He's not really sidelined, he did increase his platform by a lot through the coup, especially considering his only thinly veiled fascist background. They're all polling higher now then in the last election (if they even ran before), we're just lucky that none of the fascists and fascist-enabling "centrists" were willing to run on a joint ticket. But even internationally he went from an obscure Hitler youth leader to a well respected businessman and civic leadership person with glowing in portraits western papers
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Jul 15, 2020 17:49
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well he helped save Bolivia from a despot who was thwarting democracy*, he deserves glowing profiles *there was no thwarting
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Jul 15, 2020 18:09
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Jose posted:I can't wait to see how some posters itt defend the current government for cancelling elections/refusing to accept the results motherfucking lmao: https://twitter.com/tawnuskgrevy/status/1280615831961890816
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Jul 15, 2020 18:40
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Silver2195 posted:Technically, you claimed to take no position at all on issues like "is this a coup," rather than supporting the coup explicitly. This seems disingenuous, though; if you really didn't want to take a position, you wouldn't have posted so much about it. wrong again, and i'm not sure how you became so confused about my opinions on this when i have been so explicit. I have repeatedly taken the position that this is a coup, going back to November 11. The reason i started off so cagey on the issue is I was still trying to understand what happened. However now we have a very clear understanding that the Bolivian government entered an extra-constitutional power struggle on election night, October 20th 2019. This was the date of the coup, and we won't really be able to say that it's over until we have the election. It's not that I like to make contrarian arguments, it's that I like to make right arguments. Since it is so obvious what has occurred i find it difficult to stomach the fools and liars who are wrong about this. I mean for example, has LITERALLY ONE of the morons who claimed that Bolivia's Union leadership was intimidated into calling for Morales resignation admitted they were wrong yet? Literally anyone? Why would anyone trust anything they say when not only did they prematurely jump to conclusions supported by absolutely no evidence, but they can't even admit they were wrong? Since you are the kind of person who likes digging through post histories, you might want to look at my second post itt and the conversation it is attached to, since I think it is reflective of how i tend to approach these sorts of issues. Thankfully, Bolilvia today is much less divided than Nicaragua in 1990 and for that reason exiting this crisis is going to be a lot less difficult. If you really want me to wear my ideology on my sleeve I am dead serious when I say I am committed to democracy. I also care a lot about transparency and living in a society where we can trust each other and the government. So it offends me when I see people posting unchallenged in this thread that Morales only mistake was not abolishing elections and murdering his political enemies in the streets. As if reenacting a good old fashioned Liberals vs Conservative classic South American civil war is the one HOT TRICK to a safe and prosperous society the capitalists don't want you to know about. unrelated, but Bolivia's healthcare system is collapsing under the strain of coronavirus as the country hits all time highs of new infections. poo poo is grim there right now. http://outbreaknewstoday.com/bolivia-reports-more-than-2000-covid-19-cases-in-a-day-a-new-record-89345/ 
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Jul 20, 2020 06:05
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Squalid posted:wrong again, and i'm not sure how you became so confused about my opinions on this when i have been so explicit. I have repeatedly taken the position that this is a coup, going back to November 11. Squalid posted:I'm not sure what your specific criticism of the [Bolivian] military is, as far as I'm aware the only way its gotten involved so far was by releasing a statement
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Jul 20, 2020 13:24
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Squalid posted:
How "unrelated" is it, really? We're seeing far-right governments around the globe handle this in the worst ways pretty consistently.
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Jul 20, 2020 14:41
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brugroffil posted:How "unrelated" is it, really? We're seeing far-right governments around the globe handle this in the worst ways pretty consistently. It's unrelated because Squalid is a neolib who carries water for fascists, hth (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 20, 2020 17:18
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