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Biden doesn't want to change the border policy because it is almost the exact same border policy that Trump took over from them. Obama was locking kids in cages, too.
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Jul 9, 2020 18:29
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Mr. Nice! posted:Biden doesn't want to change the border policy because it is almost the exact same border policy that Trump took over from them. Obama was locking kids in cages, too. Obama wasn't separating families or making it impossible to apply for asylum, this is an extremely bad take
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Jul 9, 2020 18:33
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Obama wasn't separating families or making it impossible to apply for asylum, this is an extremely bad take The gradient difference between having your kids in the camp vs not. This is literally the Gul Dukat defense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2HY50xw3WU Gul Dukat posted:DUKAT: Evidence? He wants evidence. By the time I became Prefect, the occupation had been going on for almost forty years, but the planet still wasn't ready for full scale colonisation. Central Command wanted the situation resolved and they didn't care how it was done. I was convinced that a gentler hand was required to deal with the Bajorans.
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Jul 9, 2020 18:38
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Obama wasn't separating families or making it impossible to apply for asylum, this is an extremely bad take Obama absolutely separated families, although not at the same scale as Trump. Obama had very similar deterrence approaches and such as well. I'm not saying they're equal. I'm saying that Trump merely expanded or took extant programs to the extreme.
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Jul 9, 2020 18:41
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PeterCat posted:The gradient difference between having your kids in the camp vs not. This sentence doesn't make any sense to me. Wasn't the trump administrations attempts to intentionally misplace children and lose records of who they crossed with a completely novel and horrible new addition to this whole process? Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jul 9, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 18:42
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Grip it and rip it posted:This sentence doesn't make any sense to me. Throwing families into concentration camps is wrong. You can't claim moral superiority by saying "well, I kept the families intact in the camps." My analogy with Gul Dukat is that Dukat claims he was a benevolent dictator because his work camps didn't have child labor
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Jul 9, 2020 19:33
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PeterCat posted:Throwing families into concentration camps is wrong. You can't claim moral superiority by saying "well, I kept the families intact in the camps." So in your mind separating families and not separating families is morally equivalent, even if the former leads to children being indefinitely and potentially permeantly separated from their families? This is because the entire institution is morally repugnant, and degrees of horribleness don't differentiate adequately to make a difference? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I just want to understand your position here.
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Jul 9, 2020 20:59
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Grip it and rip it posted:So in your mind separating families and not separating families is morally equivalent, even if the former leads to children being indefinitely and potentially permeantly separated from their families? This is like when my dad, who screamed at us while I was growing up and generally made life hell for his kids, pointed to the TV when they would have a story about someone beating their kids, saying "see, I'm not really that bad."
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Jul 9, 2020 22:15
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Grip it and rip it posted:So in your mind separating families and not separating families is morally equivalent, even if the former leads to children being indefinitely and potentially permeantly separated from their families? You're leaving out the fact that in both scenarios the families are being wrongfully imprisoned.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:59
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Grip it and rip it posted:So in your mind separating families and not separating families is morally equivalent, even if the former leads to children being indefinitely and potentially permeantly separated from their families? Grip it and rip it posted:Not sure this vein of posting is making the case you think it's making. i'll grant that maybe you're just accidentally using weird gotcha soundbyte-mining tactics, and doing a bad job of coming around to the point that throwing families in camps is bad enough that arguing the degrees is not a worthy defense
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Jul 9, 2020 23:02
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This conversation really makes me wonder how much horrible poo poo a president could get away with and still technically be "better than Trump". Seems like there's a lot of room for it to me.
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Jul 10, 2020 00:54
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Fister Roboto posted:This conversation really makes me wonder how much horrible poo poo a president could get away with and still technically be "better than Trump". Seems like there's a lot of room for it to me. Well, look at Nixon.
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Jul 10, 2020 05:07
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Fister Roboto posted:This conversation really makes me wonder how much horrible poo poo a president could get away with and still technically be "better than Trump". Seems like there's a lot of room for it to me. may i recommend you read about any president, ever that was comes off much ruder than I intended but our history is filled with awful poo poo perpetrated even by presidents popularly considered "good."
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Jul 10, 2020 17:23
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Johnny Five-Jaces posted:may i recommend you read about any president, ever Oh yeah for sure. But I meant specifically that "well at least he's better than Trump" could be used to excuse a lot of awful poo poo down the road. Definitely get ready to hear that a lot over the next 4-8 years.
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Jul 10, 2020 19:29
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PeterCat posted:This is like when my dad, who screamed at us while I was growing up and generally made life hell for his kids, pointed to the TV when they would have a story about someone beating their kids, saying "see, I'm not really that bad." There is a tangible, additional harm that is being performed upon undocumented individuals. That additional harm is multiplied by the number of persons effected. This number was increased by the rhetoric used by the Trump admin that the southern border would be completely closed, which naturally incited fears of individuals who were thinking about crossing, and in turn expedited those plans. In essence the difference in the amount of harm caused was significantly and measurably increased, but you are saying that acknowledging that difference is useless because the policy (in one form or another) predated Trump's efforts. This is my take on what I'm reading, please let me know if it departed from your interpretation, and if so where that happened. Patware posted:i'll grant that maybe you're just accidentally using weird gotcha soundbyte-mining tactics, and doing a bad job of coming around to the point that throwing families in camps is bad enough that arguing the degrees is not a worthy defense I think looking at the policy by itself does not convey a complete understanding of the difference in the scope of the actions the federal government took between the Trump and Obama administrations. I agree wholeheartedly that the policy is repellent. I also do not think it's constructive to simply ignore the granularity of harms that were perpetrated, Particularly given our government's two party system. Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 19:47
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Grip it and rip it posted:Was the difference between your father's actions and what was played on TV not a distinction worthy of differentiation? You ever read Lolita? Overarching theme of the book is bad people and abusers look at worse people and go "at least I'm not them" as an extremely shallow justification. "It could be worse" is a lovely excuse for "I wont do anything to fix this"
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Jul 10, 2020 20:36
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Steezo posted:You ever read Lolita? Overarching theme of the book is bad people and abusers look at worse people and go "at least I'm not them" as an extremely shallow justification. No I have not. I'm not sure that's entirely relevant here though. I think that the primary difference is that in this instance you have a policy whose effect is multiplied over an entire marginalized population. I think our entire immigration policy is gross and requires a major overhaul. I also think that ignoring the significant difference in damage that has resulted from the shift in policies between the Obama and Trump administrations is a callous and disingenuous framing of the issue. Not just in terms of the actual policy, but how that policy has been utilized as part of a broader immigration regulatory scheme. Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 20:41
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It's getting close to the weekend, but I'll summarize. There is a line past which we are beyond forgivable. Both Biden and Trump are past that line and I won't support this system by participating in it and voting for either of them.
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Jul 10, 2020 23:20
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And what does that accomplish?
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Jul 11, 2020 01:05
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Grip it and rip it posted:And what does that accomplish? Anything from "nothing" to "helps Trump" depending on state.
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Jul 11, 2020 01:59
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https://twitter.com/JesseRodriguez/status/1285186900886790146
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Jul 20, 2020 15:57
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The Democrats, upon seeing that people will crawl over broken glass to vote Trump out of office: hmm, what if we threw some hot coals on the glass too, just for funsies
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Jul 20, 2020 16:17
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 Has a new VP contender entered the ring?
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Jul 20, 2020 17:36
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Motherfuckers better win.
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Jul 20, 2020 18:01
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Godholio posted:
Nah it's pretty obvious Biden is trying to cast as wide a net for supporters as possible, especially as the party eyes downballot races in a redistricting year, and getting the endorsement of a popular swing-state governor who won his last election 64-33 isn't a bad strategy regardless.
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Jul 20, 2020 18:14
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Godholio posted:
No way, a Democrat putting a Republican on the ticket, especially a Republican who fought Obama tooth and nail, will never fly. It would split the party in two and keep the Democrats out of the Senate for the next decade, while making the Democrat Socialists a legit third party. So naturally I wish to congratulate the Democratic nominee for Vice President John Bohener! May death come swiftly to his enemies!
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Jul 20, 2020 18:19
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What is this, 2015?
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Jul 20, 2020 18:27
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Biden is gonna have a miserable presidency because day 1 progressives are going to be rightfully demanding action if he wants any continued support. I don't think any current R voters are going to be flocking to his support
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Jul 20, 2020 19:51
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It feels like Biden understands he's going to have a lovely presidency if events unfold as such.
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Jul 20, 2020 20:06
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Grip it and rip it posted:Biden is gonna have a miserable presidency because day 1 progressives are going to be rightfully demanding action if he wants any continued support. I don't think any current R voters are going to be flocking to his support He's going to have the easiest job in the world if he wins. All he has to do is not be completely terrible, a bar that Donny has set so low that he can coast for an entire 4 year term on people going "yeah, but at least he's better than the last guy."
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Jul 20, 2020 20:27
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A Bad Poster posted:He's going to have the easiest job in the world if he wins. All he has to do is not be completely terrible, a bar that Donny has set so low that he can coast for an entire 4 year term on people going "yeah, but at least he's better than the last guy." That has been one of the biggest complaints about Biden. That he won't do anything worth a poo poo and if called on it he will just say well Trump would be worse.
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Jul 20, 2020 20:59
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A Bad Poster posted:He's going to have the easiest job in the world if he wins. All he has to do is not be completely terrible, a bar that Donny has set so low that he can coast for an entire 4 year term on people going "yeah, but at least he's better than the last guy." That's certainly been his campaign strategy so far, and it hasn't shown any signs of stopping!
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Jul 20, 2020 21:19
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A Bad Poster posted:He's going to have the easiest job in the world if he wins. All he has to do is not be completely terrible, a bar that Donny has set so low that he can coast for an entire 4 year term on people going "yeah, but at least he's better than the last guy." No reason for Biden to court the support of people who refuse to vote for him. Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jul 20, 2020 |
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Jul 20, 2020 21:25
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A Bad Poster posted:He's going to have the easiest job in the world if he wins. All he has to do is not be completely terrible, a bar that Donny has set so low that he can coast for an entire 4 year term on people going "yeah, but at least he's better than the last guy." Meanwhile everything is going to keep getting worse, and a lot of people are going to stop caring about it.
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Jul 20, 2020 22:11
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It's really cool that Biden is going out of his way to court the votes of Republicans while also actively pissing off people who actually want to fix things, and people here are all "actually it's the left's fault for not wanting to vote for him".
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Jul 20, 2020 22:27
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Fister Roboto posted:It's really cool that Biden is going out of his way to court the votes of Republicans while also actively pissing off people who actually want to fix things, and people here are all "actually it's the left's fault for not wanting to vote for him". He doesn't think there's anything that really needs fixing. He's a wealthy boomer who's been in power for decades. Obviously the system works.
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Jul 20, 2020 23:12
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Internet Wizard posted:That's certainly been his campaign strategy so far, and it hasn't shown any signs of stopping! There's something to be said for "Never interrupt your enemy while they're making a mistake," and, well... *gesticulates wildly* Fister Roboto posted:It's really cool that Biden is going out of his way to court the votes of Republicans while also actively pissing off people who actually want to fix things, and people here are all "actually it's the left's fault for not wanting to vote for him". I mean in part that's due to the selection bias of this thread and others, where "Biden courting moderates/republicans who don't like Trump" is posted and mocked, and stuff like "biden pledges 2 trillion dollar plan to make US energy generation carbon-free within fifteen years" is ignored or downplayed. https://twitter.com/NPR/status/1283122619424874497?s=20
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Jul 21, 2020 00:13
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Actually yall go nuts! I'm gonna start a write in campaign to prove a point!
Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 00:45
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Because nothing in Biden's history shows a tendency towards massive spending increases. Especially after he already said he would veto medicare-for-all if it raises taxes.
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Jul 21, 2020 00:50
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PeterCat posted:Because nothing in Biden's history shows a tendency towards massive spending increases. ...Except for, you know, the 800+ billion dollar Recovery Act, of which he was a key driver towards getting it passed and was placed in charge of implementation. Also, it's worth noting that Biden's rhetoric has gotten bigger and bolder since the beginning of the pandemic, and I think there is a real recognition among Democratic leaders that Trump's complete mismanagement of the Pandemic has expanded both what's needed to address the economic crisis and what's politically feasible to campaign on. When you look at how Biden's team talks about the climate plan, for instance, there's a huge focus on jobs and infrastructure, and even the more centrist members of the Democratic caucus have begun talking about the need for new spending. granted, he's almost certainly not gonna move on Medicare for All and that's a tremendous shame, but he has definitely moved in other areas, and may continue to do so as the crisis deepens (And as the senate map widens, which will be the real chokepoint for any future administration's legislative plans)
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Jul 21, 2020 01:07
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