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OwlFancier posted:I really wish I knew how you can have celebrities, with all the power that entails, but somehow not have them be creeps and abusers, because it really seems like the latter follows on from the former. You can't. No matter how many systems you put in place (and don't get me wrong you should have every possible system in place) someone is going to slip through. The important thing in that case is making sure that people feel safe to speak up. For all that people panic about 'cancel culture' the only way to assure that abusers don't get to flourish is to make sure that people can speak up and have action taken. This obviously includes the victims but also you need to cultivate a community where someone can see someone doing something wrong and feel able to speak about it. There's obviously some issues where you need to get consent from the victim but at the same time predators thrive on grooming their victims and isolating them. You can't just fix it with rules, you need to fix it with a change to the community so that people are able to speak up and prevent something from happening before it does or at bare minimum prevent it from happening to anyone else.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:01
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edit: on second thought, this is a dumb shitpost and this thread doesn't need it
RottenK fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Jul 9, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 22:03
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Endorph posted:I think it helps a bit if we're talking about specifically children, I don't think it helps much at all if we're talking about exclusively an adult space, at least depending on what you mean by 'desexualizing.' Ban ahegao t-shirts because that poo poo is gross but I think it just makes some women (and men) more comfortable, I don't think it does anything to prevent sexual abuse. It's not like the kind of people who'd wear an ahegao t-shirt to a public event would stop going, they'd just not wear the t-shirt. And if you press it far enough, it's not like people stop objectifying women, they just learn to hide it. ImpAtom posted:You can't. No matter how many systems you put in place (and don't get me wrong you should have every possible system in place) someone is going to slip through. The important thing in that case is making sure that people feel safe to speak up. For all that people panic about 'cancel culture' the only way to assure that abusers don't get to flourish is to make sure that people can speak up and have action taken. This obviously includes the victims but also you need to cultivate a community where someone can see someone doing something wrong and feel able to speak about it. There's obviously some issues where you need to get consent from the victim but at the same time predators thrive on grooming their victims and isolating them. That's sort of what I was trying to get at with desexualizing spaces. Like a workplace environment. You don't go to work to get hit on, or harassed, or abused (ideally) and part of that is why you (ideally) create an sort of professional environment, where you are expected to interact in a... well a professional way. Like you don't get personal with people and you don't speak or act in a way that might make people uncomfortable because they don't have a choice as to whether they come to work and they aren't coming to work for that anyway. And if that sort of behaviour isn't normalized it's easier (I hope) for people to call it out and put a stop to it. So perhaps the same sorts of standards at conventions and events would be a good thing? Maybe people would feel more able to speak up if the environment wasn't normalizing the behaviour they found uncomfortable, and if it could be stopped earlier maybe it might make the creeps stand out more. I dunno, I just feel like a very informal environment with no boundaries is much better terrain for these predatory people to operate in. Because if people are already uncomfortable and that's just normal it seems like it'd be easier for them to take it further.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:15
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I think "erotic art attracts predators" is a really obvious fallacy, but I do think that erotic art is really polarizing, and can be an exclusionary turn-off to a lot of people who would otherwise be interested. I have no interest in nor belief that woman need to be protected from the sight of boobs, as Endorph has explained better then I can how patronizing that is. I also think that communities that are more exclusionary tend to have more predators and more abusers, because the more limited and homogeneous the pool of people involved are, the more likely they are to fall in line in ignoring abuse (see: geek social fallacies and the tendency for in-groups to have a hard time ostracizing in-group abusers) I don't have a solution for esports communities, I think that esports by nature attract a very limited slice of people. I don't think banning erotic art should be the first or last step, but, I don't think it's bad to have a broader appeal. OwlFancier posted:That's sort of what I was trying to get at with desexualizing spaces. Like a workplace environment. You don't go to work to get hit on, or harassed, or abused (ideally) and part of that is why you (ideally) create an sort of professional environment, where you are expected to interact in a... well a professional way. Like you don't get personal with people and you don't speak or act in a way that might make people uncomfortable because they don't have a choice as to whether they come to work and they aren't coming to work for that anyway. And if that sort of behaviour isn't normalized it's easier (I hope) for people to call it out and put a stop to it. yeah exactly! workplaces that excuse or allow for sexual jokes to be made can really rapidly turn into a toxic and abusive place to work. even workplaces like porn websites or studios, which are naturally be very sex positive, can harbor some really abusive behavior because it is easier to ignore and hide abusive sexual behavior in that environment. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jul 9, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 22:20
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Roth posted:I don't think that anybody has said that it's good to have ahegao sweaters around at public events, but that it's not the root of the problem that people want to be openly horny. There are a lot of outlets for horny people so you kind of have to wonder why some of them pick the Smash bros tournament
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Jul 9, 2020 22:25
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when i think of places that dont have sexual abuse i definitely think of work
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Jul 9, 2020 22:27
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Famethrowa posted:I think "erotic art attracts predators" is a really obvious fallacy, but I do think that erotic art is really polarizing, and can be an exclusionary turn-off to a lot of people who would otherwise be interested. I have no interest in nor belief that woman need to be protected from the sight of boobs, as Endorph has explained how patronizing that is very well. About 10 years ago I read The Revolution Starts At Home which was really eye-opening to this kind of thing. Abusers who belong to a marginalized or excluded social class themselves are almost impossible to root out, because they often benefit from that group's distrust of, or ignorance to, conventional law enforcement and are shielded from retaliation based upon their own identities. This book was speaking of activist communities in particular, but the same principles apply to any niche in-group.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:28
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Endorph posted:when i think of places that dont have sexual abuse i definitely think of work It's not a good place, no, and the fact that it comes with built in power problems certainly doesn't help either, but I would still rather work somewhere where people kept a professional attitude and where I felt like I could raise objections than one where any sort of behaviour was just accepted uncritically regardless of how anyone felt about any of it.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:32
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OwlFancier posted:It's not a good place, no, and the fact that it comes with built in power problems certainly doesn't help either, but I would still rather work somewhere where people kept a professional attitude and where I felt like I could raise objections than one where any sort of behaviour was just accepted uncritically regardless of how anyone felt about any of it. I'm not saying people should be able to talk about their favorite hentai over loudspeaker just like, if someones arcade stick is fanservicey art of chun-li i definitely dont care Endorph fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jul 9, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 22:37
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There's degrees yeah, but I guess my suggestion would again fall back on whether the intent is primarily to shock others, because that's wrong for the same reason, like, flashing people is wrong, it might be a milder form of it with the porno sweaters but it's not something I would do. Or something I would want to be subjected to, for that matter.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:41
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I mean I'm not disagreeing that the ahegao sweaters are bad.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:42
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Zongerian posted:There are a lot of outlets for horny people so you kind of have to wonder why some of them pick the Smash bros tournament I can't think of anywhere besides maybe a porn convention where those ahegao hoodies would actually be acceptable and even then I'm pretty sure they'd be considered weird. I have no idea why those things were even made.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:48
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Endorph posted:The difference is 'a professional attitude' is dictated exclusively by people who aren't you. And you could raise an objection in an environment where things are more openminded too. I don't think it's particularly demanding to ask people not to present sexually explicit material in large public venues. You can argue over what 'fanservice' means but I feel like if you have to quibble about it you're better off erring on the side of caution. There are certainly things you can argue about making someone uncomfortable but also having a place (such as "Free Hong Kong") but at the end of the day nobody needs to have a sexy fightpad to enjoy a fighting game but if it makes someone else feel unwelcome or uncomfortable then that's a net loss. It certainly would be nice if fighting games would also take this to heart but y'know, that's a slow road. It's also not saying "don't make anyone remotely attractive or any way," just y'know there's a difference between "attractive character" and "Code of Princess."
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Jul 9, 2020 22:49
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Zongerian posted:There are a lot of outlets for horny people so you kind of have to wonder why some of them pick the Smash bros tournament Recent events discussed in this very thread suggest it's because they are, in fact, pedophiles.
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Jul 9, 2020 22:52
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Kazinsal posted:Recent events discussed in this very thread suggest it's because they are, in fact, pedophiles. Sky stealing 350k from people to rent a mansion and hold parties where people can rape underage girls makes you think they're pedophiles? Huh. I wonder why
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Jul 9, 2020 23:11
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That is a mighty fine avatar you've got there. What's the source?
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Jul 9, 2020 23:13
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ImpAtom posted:I don't think it's particularly demanding to ask people not to present sexually explicit material in large public venues. Fundamentally this, regardless of if there's children involved or not (though, especially if there are). Unless there are clear expectations put in place that the environment is going to have these things, it absolutely actively creates a hostile environment--whether or not it makes it harder for people to feel comfortable speaking out (it does). For the same reason the kink community polices this kind of poo poo heavily, and even places like furry conventions actively restrict explicit activities/content to places where it's only visible to people who consent to see it. Any motherfucker who rolls up to an All Ages space with any kind of sexually explicit anything on display is a sex pest. Certainly not to the same degree that we've been seeing at length recently, but subjecting people to your kinks without consent is mad hosed up.
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Jul 9, 2020 23:34
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Rabid Snake posted:Jesus christ dont loving google the definition of ahegao
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Jul 9, 2020 23:38
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I think people mistake being sex positive with being okay with sexual content being freely displayed in certain speeches, especially when a good chunk of it is objectifying and sometimes pretty problematic. I also think that while it's not the CAUSE of abuse, it does help in fostering a culture that facilitates some lovely behavior and that can be pretty exclusionary. For every woman that loves DOA there's one or two more that were very upset when they expressed their feelings about Laura's costume in SFV just to be shouted down (to use an anecdotal example to counter another). There are different dynamics in play too regarding how this stuff is consumed and perceived by different groups. Like, it's not a binary of "is horny causing rapes".
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Jul 9, 2020 23:42
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Things like ahegao, porn and alcohol in spaces with minors don't create pedos but pedos use those tools to groom minors. Removing them won't eliminate pedos from those spaces but it might it harder for them to groom. But it is only useful as part and parcel of a much wider strategy.
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Jul 9, 2020 23:48
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Maybe it's because I've just read the last two pages in bulk, but I think this discussion is kinda going in circles by this point. In my view (please correct me if I'm wrong) it's become pretty clear that everyone here agrees that A: ahegao hoodies and similar deliberate creepiness are bad and people should not be confronted with them against their will, and B: it is important to foster an interpersonal environment where people are able to make themselves heard and receive support when they experience and/or witness abuse. The controversy seems to be mainly about how A and B are connected. Personally, I'm getting the impression (from this and similar discussions) that treating unsolicited displays of kinks in public places as a cause of r*pe culture just ends up unwittingly muddying the waters on both topics and that it's probably more fruitful to discuss them as separate problems. Carpator Diei fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 9, 2020 23:51
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Zas posted:hes also like, a really lovely evil landlord among other things I bet he has his own set of accusations waiting to come out
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Jul 9, 2020 23:53
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Carpator Diei posted:Personally, I'm getting the impression (from this and similar discussions) that treating unsolicited displays of kinks in public places as a cause of r*pe culture just ends up unwittingly muddying the waters on both topics and that it's probably more fruitful to discuss them as separate problems. The issue here is that the two often go hand-in-hand. Abusers often get a genuine thrill out of forcing people to participate which is why you get so many things like "this dude wouldn't stop sending me hentai/dick pics." The act of forcing someone who does not want to be involved in a sexual situation into a sexual situation even if it does not physical contact can still readily be abuse. This does not mean you can never have sexy things ever or whatever, just that you should probably ask for consent or be in a place you know consent has been offered. If it is a situation where you can't ask for consent due to the number of people or whatever then that's a big red flag "don't do it." It is 100% never okay to force someone to participate in your kink without their consent. This doesn't mean you need to jab your eyes out if you like shoulders are whatever, just don't try to get someone to participate with your lustful desire for shoulders. But the attempt to force people to interact with sexual material is a really common thing in abuser's playbooks for a variety of reasons and it's pretty hard to discuss one without the other. Especially because it leads to people not recognizing that those situations are harmful and writing them off as 'no big deal.'
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Jul 10, 2020 00:15
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I mean, EVO tried to foster a professional environment where sexy costumes were banned and they didn't allow DoA or poo poo and the end result was a professional environmen where black dudes got fried chicken jokes made at them, wifebeaters were allowed back in not just without comment but praised for their 'triumphant return,' and it was run by a pedophile. And the fact that it was a 'professional' environment meant that complaints about these things went nowhere. I'm not saying therefore, letting people have an arcade stick with noel vermillion's rear end on it is praxis, just that its pretty clearly not related at all. And it's very strange to correlate mildly sexualized art or female characters with hardcore kink or pornography. Endorph fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 00:16
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I feel like a good takeaway there would be that perhaps a good environment would be one that does not force people to participate in other people's sexual enjoyment and also doesn't force people to participate in other people's racism?
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Jul 10, 2020 00:19
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like a good takeaway there would be that perhaps a good environment would be one that does not force people to participate in other people's sexual enjoyment and also doesn't force people to participate in other people's racism? Yes, I agree.
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Jul 10, 2020 00:20
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Dias posted:I think people mistake being sex positive with being okay with sexual content being freely displayed in certain speeches, especially when a good chunk of it is objectifying and sometimes pretty problematic. I also think that while it's not the CAUSE of abuse, it does help in fostering a culture that facilitates some lovely behavior and that can be pretty exclusionary. For every woman that loves DOA there's one or two more that were very upset when they expressed their feelings about Laura's costume in SFV just to be shouted down (to use an anecdotal example to counter another). I don't think anyone is arguing that sexually explicit stuff should be openly displayed at events (unless that is expressly what that event is for I suppose, and cosplay being somewhat of a gray area). At the same time though, if someone plays Street Fighter and is going to an event with Street Fighter, it is probably not unreasonable to assume that they are okay with or at least unsurprised by what is in Street Fighter, the game specifically, not people sexy fanart sticks. Laura's costume is not really equivalent to somebody wearing an ahegao shirt in terms of being forced on an unwilling audience, and even then like the most an event organizer can really do is ban certain costumes. If somebody is expressing distaste a character's design at the event, that's kind of not the right venue for it because what could you even realistically expect to be done? That would be a problem with mass appeal of the game period, not the event itself. chumbler fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 00:21
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Endorph posted:I mean, EVO tried to foster a professional environment where sexy costumes were banned and they didn't allow DoA or poo poo and the end result was a professional environmen where black dudes got fried chicken jokes made at them, wifebeaters were allowed back in not just without comment but praised for their 'triumphant return,' and it was run by a pedophile. And the fact that it was a 'professional' environment meant that complaints about these things went nowhere. I mean the issue there is that they failed to foster a professional environment because it was being run by a pedophile and housed a large number of abusers. It is an inherent problem with the system that it got that far and for that long but it doesn't really have anything to do with them banning DoA except that they tried (and succeed) at using that for cover to allow other things to happen in the background. (I also think banning DoA is dumb as hell for the record and would disagree with it even if this hadn't come up.) You can't really make a working system when (for lack of a better term) the foxes are in the henhouse, and the community has to clean itself out before any of that stuff can be done. No amount of new rules are going to make people feel comfortable unless that they can prove a safe environment. And part of (but certainly not all of) that would be making sure that all those sorts of horrible things are actually punished and not given a lenient pass because the person was famous. A big part of the problem was people being given multiple chances over terrible behavior and that really shouldn't have ever been the case. If you're not punishing people for being racist or abusive then you can have as many or as few rules as you want because it's always going to go to poo poo. And as far as the last part goes, fanservice can cover such a wide spectrum that it depends on what specifically you're talking about. I don't think anyone is saying that you should be banned for having Bayonetta on your Gamecube Controller.
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Jul 10, 2020 00:33
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ImpAtom posted:I mean the issue there is that they failed to foster a professional environment because it was being run by a pedophile and housed a large number of abusers
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Jul 10, 2020 00:39
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Endorph posted:I think we're just coming at this from different angles because, this, to me, sounds like the endgoal and definition of a 'professional environment.' Fair enough. I don't necessarily agree but I can see where you're coming from and I certainly can't tell you that you're wrong.
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Jul 10, 2020 00:42
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That's how they often end up, yes, because as you note, they become calcified around the preferences of the people with the actual power. But like, as someone who works in a work environment I still value that people aren't constantly being loving creeps to each other and that we generally do try to look out for each other. That's what I, and I think what most normal people, non creep, non boss people, mean when they say they would like to work in a professional environment.
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Jul 10, 2020 00:43
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I think that's impossible in the context of the FGC. In most work environments, everyone has basically the same smallscale goal (get through the day with minimal conflict and accomplish their work) and the same largescale goal (accomplish the company's stated purposes in a way that leads to growth). Even if someone isn't personally invested in their coworkers or the company's success, it still makes things easier for them if they at least do the bare minimum to help those tasks. That isn't the case in the FGC. Everyone is ostensibly there to have fun, but what they find fun is different, and some people do have goals outside that, like building a personal brand or promoting something. And the tournament organizers also have different motivations from the people there, especially the larger scale environments. And the various companies sponsoring the event have yet another goal. There's no common goal, so there can't be any real professional environment where people stay out of each others' ways. There's always gonna be conflict between these things. An attempt at a professional environment inevitably shifts power further towards the sponsors, top level players, and hosts, the people who already have money and social power.
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Jul 10, 2020 00:53
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'm sorry you had to learn about the female orgasm this way I'm bothered that most of the drawings seem to be of underage girls.
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Jul 10, 2020 02:24
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https://twitter.com/zire4hire/status/1280703779642306561
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Jul 10, 2020 04:06
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Well, that didn't take long. Sky Williams, the Epstein of Smash.
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Jul 10, 2020 04:16
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Arsenic Lupin posted:That is a mighty fine avatar you've got there. What's the source? A mod gave it to me and I did a reverse image search and it's a cover for some pulp sci-fi novel in the 60s or 70s iirc
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Jul 10, 2020 04:23
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Rabid Snake posted:I'm bothered that most of the drawings seem to be of underage girls. There is often no 'seems' about it and we should call it what it is, paedophile art. Same for that splatoon poo poo people were talking about a few pages ago.
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Jul 10, 2020 08:24
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I really don't want this in my search history, but I have to ask, what's the difference between paedophile and pedophile?
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Jul 10, 2020 08:30
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American versus British/Commonwealth spelling.
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Jul 10, 2020 08:30
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Boba Pearl posted:I really don't want this in my search history, but I have to ask, what's the difference between paedophile and pedophile? One sends you to jail, the other sends you to gaol
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