|
Data Graham posted:That was another neato thing the movie did in that Bag End scene, where the Ring had been in the fire and Gandalf asked Frodo to tell him whether there was any writing on it. He's like "No... no..." while Gandalf is turned away, looking relieved. It can't top Bakshi Gandalf having a senior's moment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvW6WOUt5Ro
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 19:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 16:56 |
|
|
Imagined posted:He only knew for sure that it was evil the night of Bilbo's birthday, but his exact quote talking to Frodo about when he first saw it during the events of 'The Hobbit' is something like "...how Gollum came to possess a Great Ring, for plainly it was, that much was clear from the first..." and he doesn't actually KNOW it's the One until he comes back to the Shire years after Bilbo's birthday and performs the last test of throwing it in the fire and looking for the inscription. Gandalf says to Frodo that he didn’t know until just now when he saw the inscription, but he’s being more than a bit defensive here because Frodo has been repeatedly needling him about how long he’s known that he left Frodo in possession of a dangerous cursed thing being sought after by a terrifying evil god. Right after he mentions this he mentions that he also already expected to see the inscription on the ring. He was pretty certain of its identity from the moment that he got out of Gollum that it was originally found near the site of Isildur’s death, and Frodo gets pretty hysterical upon finding out that Gandalf didn’t immediately drop everything, rush back to Bag End and save him from scary jewelry (even though as far as we know, Gandalf spent almost all the time since his last visit to Frodo either looking for Gollum or on the way back from having found him, only stopping at Minas Tirith, which is after all on the way, to check about the inscription). He could have been more careful, is the sense that Frodo gets, and from Gandalf’s responses he obviously feels a bit guilty too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 20:06
|
|
|
doesnt Gandalf at one point tell Bilbo that there are many magic rings in the world? Is he talking about the great rings or are there others
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 20:24
|
|
|
Zippy the Bummer posted:doesnt Gandalf at one point tell Bilbo that there are many magic rings in the world? Is he talking about the great rings or are their others He tells Frodo that there are “lesser rings” that the Noldor of Eregion made as test cases before they had the knowledge to make the Great Rings
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 20:30
|
|
|
Do we have any idea what the lesser rings can do?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 20:59
|
|
|
Zippy the Bummer posted:Do we have any idea what the lesser rings can do? Not really. Here’s the passage LOTR I.2 posted:’In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles – yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous. Putting that together with the fact that Gandalf knew “from the first” that Bilbo’s ring of invisibility wasn’t one of these, I think we can deduce from this that the Lesser Rings don’t make you invisible, probably don’t make you immortal/undying, and most likely don’t expose you to Sauron (which would make sense since they were made before he got really involved in the process), but they still do something morally or otherwise dangerous — perhaps they give their bearers the ability to use their wills to dominate and command others, like the Great Rings. Or given that the elves hadn’t mastered the art and were trying to figure out what they could do, they might have various and non-standard uses.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
skasion posted:Not really. Here’s the passage given that it is confirmed that gandalf and the istari at the very least cast spells, that there is a spell on the doors of Moria, and that the balrog uses a spells, i think you can safely assume they may be contributing the the magical nature of places the elves inhabit and the objects they make. maybe its how they make magical weapons and armor, how they make building that can last forever, etc. maybe they even have rather bog standard fantasy uses like making the wearer stronger or faster.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 21:19
|
|
|
skasion posted:Putting that together with the fact that Gandalf knew “from the first” that Bilbo’s ring of invisibility wasn’t one of these, I think we can deduce from this that the Lesser Rings don’t make you invisible, probably don’t make you immortal/undying, and most likely don’t expose you to Sauron (which would make sense since they were made before he got really involved in the process), but they still do something morally or otherwise dangerous — perhaps they give their bearers the ability to use their wills to dominate and command others, like the Great Rings. Or given that the elves hadn’t mastered the art and were trying to figure out what they could do, they might have various and non-standard uses. Gandalf's knowledge-from-the-first might be what he's thinking in retrospect, though. From the quote you posted the Great Rings all bring you to the notice of Sauron sooner or later, and as said above it's hard to believe he'd've let someone he felt responsible for carry one of those around so long. I think he's doing "an oh no I should have known all along I felt something was off" thing there. It must have been at least feasible for Bilbo to have a lesser ring that made him invisible.
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
As a kid I often bounced back and forth between Tolkien and other series like for example the Oz books, and so it seemed a natural inference to me that the other "lesser" rings would be like those pearls from Rinkitink In Oz where like one gave you super strength, another made you invulnerable, and another gave you advice if you held it up to your ear
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 21:52
|
|
|
Imagined posted:He only knew for sure that it was evil the night of Bilbo's birthday, but his exact quote talking to Frodo about when he first saw it during the events of 'The Hobbit' is something like "...how Gollum came to possess a Great Ring, for plainly it was, that much was clear from the first..." and he doesn't actually KNOW it's the One until he comes back to the Shire years after Bilbo's birthday and performs the last test of throwing it in the fire and looking for the inscription. Does he say great ring or magic ring ? Edit He does indeed say “Great Ring” euphronius fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Jul 9, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 22:01
|
|
|
Southpaugh posted:The sons of faenor are my favourite poo poo seriously. The terrible oath, kinslaying and the overall suicidal nature of those particular noldor. Magnifique. i think playing curufin is probably a fun acting job, just being a huge arrogant piece of poo poo. i also like maedhros just for being basically a good guy who gets dragged along with evil because he wanted to please his father
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 22:01
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:It can't top Bakshi Gandalf having a senior's moment. 1:50
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 22:04
|
|
|
What did the Wizard know, and when did he know it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 22:08
|
|
|
Imagined posted:What did the Wizard know, and when did he know it? That’s what Frodo wants to know !!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 22:10
|
|
|
If saruman hasn’t told him the Valar took it I’d think Gandalf would have been sure a lot earlier
|
|
#
?
Jul 9, 2020 22:10
|
|
|
euphronius posted:If saruman hasn’t told him the Valar took it I’d think Gandalf would have been sure a lot earlier Saruman didn't say the Valar took it, he said it washed down Anduin to the sea. That is clearly a best guess, not based on any actual knowledge, and Gandalf was very foolish to have taken him at his word when the evidence he had at hand was far more alarming.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 00:07
|
|
|
Data Graham posted:That was another neato thing the movie did in that Bag End scene, where the Ring had been in the fire and Gandalf asked Frodo to tell him whether there was any writing on it. He's like "No... no..." while Gandalf is turned away, looking relieved. A great little moment. That and Theoden's "...really?" look when the nazgul swoops in at Pelennor. skasion posted:He was more powerful with the ring than he was before he made it. Think of the ring as a machine; if you have the wherewithal to make a lever you can lift more weight with it than you could have lifted without it. The catch is that if what you want to “lift” is the souls of other people, you gotta put your soul into the lever too. That's a great way too put it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 00:38
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:A great little moment. That and Theoden's "...really?" look when the nazgul swoops in at Pelennor. "they have a cave troll"
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 00:54
|
|
|
quote:‘One that you cannot slay with arrows,’ said Gandalf. ‘You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgűl, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. They fly now
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 02:29
|
|
|
Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:They fly now lol
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 02:30
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:A great little moment. That and Theoden's "...really?" look when the nazgul swoops in at Pelennor. Theoden has a terrible habit of making a statement at the worst possible time. "Is this all you can conjure, Saruman?" *Olympic torch runner yeets a hole in the wall* "Aragorn, get out of there!" *Aragorn and Gimli get a bear hug from an Uruk who is very happy to see them* "Make safe the city!" *Snakey boi munchies on his horse.*
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 02:53
|
|
|
I imagine part of what threw Gandalf was how slow to evil the ring was with Hobbits. It would be dangerous and apparent what it was much sooner if someone like Denethor or Boromir came into contact with it, but a Hobbit who was living peacefully would rarely have cause to use the ring, and it would be slow to corrupt if kept in that way. The ring's evil was probably a little bit more dormant when Bilbo first came into contact with it because Sauron at that point was still regaining his strength. So you take that and you combine it with Saruman saying something that would put Gandalf's mind at ease and couple that with Gandalf really really not wanting Bilbo (or anyone) to find the ring, and it's easy to see why he didn't look too closely at the ring until almost it was too late. Saruman was deeply respected before his fall was apparent and his knowledge on ring-lore was pretty undisputed.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 03:16
|
|
|
Gandalf should have just tossed it in the fire as soon as he realised there was something funny about it. Even if it was a totally mundane ring, that wouldn't have damaged it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 03:22
|
|
|
Safety Biscuits posted:Gandalf should have just tossed it in the fire as soon as he realised there was something funny about it. Even if it was a totally mundane ring, that wouldn't have damaged it. Not quite so simple. Sauron had the Nazgul secretly preparing Barad-Dur/Mordor for him prior to him leaving Mirkwood. While it wouldn't have been as fortified as it ended up being when Frodo/Sam went there, it still would have likely been a task and a half to try and get it into Mordor safely even if they'd tried right after Bilbo's quest. And around when Bilbo was finishing the Smaug quest up was when the White Council expelled Sauron from Dol Guldur where he then fled straight to Mordor and took up residence. Even if Gandalf knew immediately that it was the one and tried to get Bilbo or whoever to bring it there, it would have been very dangerous.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 03:29
|
|
|
I thought Gandalf also didn’t know about the inscription on the One Ring, or the fact that it was revealed by fire, until he found Isildur's account in Minas Tirith
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 03:31
|
|
|
sweet geek swag posted:Saruman didn't say the Valar took it, he said it washed down Anduin to the sea. That is clearly a best guess, not based on any actual knowledge, and Gandalf was very foolish to have taken him at his word when the evidence he had at hand was far more alarming. The clear implication is the valar took it Rings just don’t roll down a river on their own . Also that is the method of the valar as they did with the silmariL It was 100% sarumans implication that he had insider knowledge of the actions of the valar If you read the text. Wait I’ll just post it : while Sauron slept, it was rolled down the River to the Sea. There let it lie until the End.” ’ See? It is passive voice to his the actors (the valar.) he’s clearly not saying to just Rolled it self. Someone did. Who? They valar obviously. They like to do stuff like that. “The end” is also a clue that the valar did it. of course he was lying the whole time !!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 04:08
|
|
|
Zoran posted:I thought Gandalf also didn’t know about the inscription on the One Ring, or the fact that it was revealed by fire, until he found Isildur's account in Minas Tirith Correct He figured out isildur May have wrote something about it while he was searching for Gollum near Mordor
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 04:10
|
|
|
There is a huge difference between The ring rolled down the river And The ring was rolled down the river Tolkien is very Careful with passive constructions and you should pay attention when characters use it especially concerning the gods (Bilbos poem re earendil earlier uses lots of passive voice wrt the gods) euphronius fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jul 10, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 04:12
|
|
|
Hobbits are the biggest lazy pieces of crap all they do is sit around and try to be as comfortable as possible. Men seek to dominate, Elves seek to live harmoniously, Dwarves seek the shiniest shiny things, but Hobbits just want to hang. Even Gollum, a hobbit, just made his own dark parody of Bag End. He loved water and he had a cozy shack on an island in the middle of water in a deep hobbit hole where he could eat his favorite food, raw fish, and nobody could bother him just like The Shire.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 04:19
|
|
|
euphronius posted:There is a huge difference between or The ring was rolled down the river (by water and current)
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 04:28
|
|
|
LotR is animistic world. Mountains, stones, winds, trees have native spirits. Water is a divine province and its spirits serve the sea god.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 04:32
|
|
|
Arcsquad12 posted:Theoden has a terrible habit of making a statement at the worst possible time. Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow? (Exorcism commences) euphronius posted:Tolkien is very Careful with passive constructions and you should pay attention when characters use it especially concerning the gods I've not noticed that before. I'll have to take another look!
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 05:21
|
|
|
The education system doesn't teach passive voice nearly well enough
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 05:42
|
|
|
In terms of education, the extent to which passive voice is taught, can be considered insufficient
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 05:53
|
|
|
euphronius posted:The clear implication is the valar took it The thing the thing that would be doing the rolling (and it is a thing, not Vala) would be the current of the river. His mentioning the end is not designed to evoke the Valar, but to convince Gandalf of the finality of the ring's fate and convince him to drop this subject.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 05:57
|
|
|
You know I'm gonna stop pussyfooting around the semantics arguments and cut to the chase. Gandalf knows that the Valar would not interfere in the matter of Sauron and the Ring because that is literally the reason he is in Middle-Earth; because the Valar can't interfere in the matter of Sauron and the Ring without destroying half of Middle-Earth. For good or for ill the Ring is Middle-Earth's problem, and the Valar made that very clear. Gandalf and Elrond dismiss the idea that the Valar would take the ring and hide it out of hand during the Council of Elrond. If Saruman had tried to imply that the Valar had interfered with the ring it would have given away his duplicity right then and there.
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 06:10
|
|
|
The Valar wouldn't, but Ulmo is always in our corner
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 06:15
|
|
|
Do you really wanna see what happens when someone tries to kill only a particularly large and bothersome ant without disturbing the rest of their ant farm?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 06:22
|
|
|
Daikloktos posted:The Valar wouldn't, but Ulmo is always in our corner WWTD What would Tulkas do?
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 06:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 16:56 |
|
|
ScottyJSno posted:WWTD YES Punch things and laugh, The Incredible Tulk is a magnificent idiot
|
|
#
?
Jul 10, 2020 07:21
|
|