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Necrothatcher posted:Does Abby really lie her way through the story though? When she walks up to hospital is a bold faced lie directly to authorities and friends. Just clarifying, are we all reading Abby's bizarre devotion to Lev and Yara as some kind of quest for redemption because she realizes that everyone sees her as a monster after she went full mask-off with Joel? Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 14:20
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Bust Rodd posted:When she walks up to hospital is a bold faced lie directly to authorities and friends ohhhh yeah - I had a feeling there was something like that I was missing.
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Jul 10, 2020 14:23
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Necrothatcher posted:ohhhh yeah - I had a feeling there was something like that I was missing. She lies directly to Nora about who the medical kit is for - she says it's for Owen. Like, she doesn't literally lie her way through the game, but there's only so many times you can use the word subterfuge. Abby conceals what she is really doing from enough people enough times that the idea that she'd be unwilling to infiltrate seems utterly at odds with her behaviour. She goes AWOL twice, she presumably conceals information from her friends about Joel's motivations, she bullshits and lies in the hospital. Her whole strategy for getting at Joel when they find Jackson is more of a recon mission than...what Ellie ends up doing. I think there are more examples but I'm not inclined to sift through the game. The idea that Abby is centrally gung ho in her approach is sort of based on how the character looks rather than how she behaves. She's not even particularly confrontational as a person.
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Jul 10, 2020 14:50
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Bust Rodd posted:When she walks up to hospital is a bold faced lie directly to authorities and friends. I’d say “sort of”, it’s pretty clear that Joel’s not the only reason she feels guilty, but it’s a big part of it.
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Jul 10, 2020 16:08
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I sort of give her a pass for lying when the truth would condemn two kids to death and probably her too.
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Jul 10, 2020 16:11
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stev posted:I sort of give her a pass for lying when the truth would condemn two kids to death and probably her too. I mean I don't think anyone is saying she's a bad person for doing it, it's just a point towards "Abby's character as written would believably be capable lying / deception to achieve her goals"
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Jul 10, 2020 16:53
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I do think if Abby did anything more than what she did there would be less drama from Maria’s end, especially if she went to Jackson and did anything to someone else. Right now it’s framed in story as Joel’s past catching up to him, but any more would be “they came to our town and killed/tortured our people”, so it would be harder to just accept it and not want to send anyone after them.
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Jul 10, 2020 16:56
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I mean, she can clearly be deceptive when she has to be, but lying to someone once or twice is a bit different from maintaining a long-term deception while living with a group of people who are (at least nominally, being a group post-apoc survivors) somewhat suspicious of outsiders. It's not quite the same skill set.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:01
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Cardiovorax posted:I mean, she can clearly be deceptive when she has to be, but lying to someone once or twice is a bit different from maintaining a long-term deception while living with a group of people who are (at least nominally, being a group post-apoc survivors) somewhat suspicious of outsiders. It's not quite the same skill set. I mean are Jackson suspicious of outsiders? They have people from other settlements milling about. I think personally one of the tonal problems is how pleasant and nice and serene jackson is, making all the "Grim reality" of the Seattle factions seem foolish at best.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:13
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Well, I admit this is more personal opinion than fact, but I imagine those highly regimented and well-organized patrols aren't just about infected. It's a dangerous world they live in, even if they're doing a better job of staying human while they do it than most of the factions we get to see.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:18
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It’s mentioned they have traders who pass through and that their scouts are pretty well hidden, so presumably they have ways of keeping track of who’s coming around. Though Jackson does seem like a terrible place to be a hunter, with the winters and presumably small population of people once you find Jackson it’s probably best to just abandon that life and work with them.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:31
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Places with long winters tend to live better on fishing than on hunting, but Jackson in specific is well-known for the amount of large game that it has. It's one of the few places in Wyoming that do. If they hunt in the summer and preserve the meat properly, they could live off of that pretty well, especially after 25 years of practically no humans being around and animal populations booming as a result.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:37
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Cardiovorax posted:Well, I admit this is more personal opinion than fact, but I imagine those highly regimented and well-organized patrols aren't just about infected. It's a dangerous world they live in, even if they're doing a better job of staying human while they do it than most of the factions we get to see. I think one of the many letters you find near the start of the game mentions repelling “hunters” (and I think Maria mentions the casualties from this as a reason why they can’t spare anyone to go after Abby and friends). And of course they do repel an attack in TLOU1, so there are definitely non-infected threats.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:41
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Cardiovorax posted:I mean, she can clearly be deceptive when she has to be, but lying to someone once or twice is a bit different from maintaining a long-term deception while living with a group of people who are (at least nominally, being a group post-apoc survivors) somewhat suspicious of outsiders. It's not quite the same skill set. I don't think it'd be much more complicated than turning up with a backstory (involving a well-equipped gym) and, like, working for a while. I'm sure new people are scrutinised and that an eye is kept on them but it's just a community; it wouldn't be like industrial espionage or penetrating a government department.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:57
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Perfectly Safe posted:I don't think it'd be much more complicated than turning up with a backstory (involving a well-equipped gym) and, like, working for a while. I'm sure new people are scrutinised and that an eye is kept on them but it's just a community; it wouldn't be like industrial espionage or penetrating a government department. VVV Also a very good point. Tommy was a member, he would probably notice any tell-tale signs or habits if he was around her for long enough. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 18:03
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Abby was also raised in the Fireflies. For her plan to work she would have to literally never acknowledge that or reference it or recognize it without potentially tipping off Tommy or Eugene or any of the other fireflies that are now Jackson residents
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Jul 10, 2020 18:10
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Perfectly Safe posted:Anyone can be blindsided - if, say, Henry from TLOU had secretly had a murderous beef with Joel, then he would have been able to kill Joel. Hell, Joel's blindsided by Ellie the first time he meets her - if the whole thing had been a trap and you replace Ellie with "two dudes with shotguns" then it's goodbye Joel. Anyone can, through circumstances out of their control, find themselves in a position in which they're outnumbered and outgunned. I agree with all of this and expressed the same sentiment in my post that Joel is not unkillable. But I stress that my problem isn't the outcome of the scene, it's the (pun-intended) execution. Side note based on your paragraph: the ineffective ambushes you see throughout both games is something that always makes me laugh. With the exception of Jesse in the theatre, no one ever walks into a bullet. The ambushers always go for the choke or a non-lethal melee attack. The nadir of this has to be Ellie in the theatre. She has bombs, a one-hit-kill machete, a shotgun, and she's bloodlusted, and yet she chooses to blindside Abby as she steps through the door with a 2-by-4. quote:- We have no reason to think that he completely disarmed. He's presumably got his sidearm somewhere. Eh... it's a visual medium. If something isn't established on camera, referred to in the scene, or otherwise referenced or implied in any way, it functionally doesn't exist*. I could say Joel presumably has a bunch of shivs taped to his body too or that he's carting around hundreds of supplements too as well. If they'd wanted to show Joel was armed, they would have. An example: the Salt Lake Crew could pat him down after his knee is blown out and remove a revolver that he had in his waistband. Alternatively, much like he did after being impaled at the University, Joel could have feebly attempted to draw his gun but had it kicked away. However, since we do not see a gun, he doesn't reach for one, no one mentions one, and it plays no role in the scene, it seems reasonable to conclude he does not have one. * disclaimer to anyone reading: I know some of you really want to pick this apart and say "I guess Joel doesn't have underwear cause we don't see it" or something equally asinine. Don't be stupid. quote:- The whole group wanders into the room and then stops. He does not know that they're stopping in that room until people stop walking. The only way he could have stood by that doorway would have been if he'd conspicuously walked back across the room, turning his back on most of the room's occupants as he did so. I note that Tommy, with the same information as Joel, stayed close to the door and had his back to a wall in a way that did not raise anyone's suspicions or interfere with the scene. There is nothing stopping Joel from doing the same thing, either by standing next to Tommy or in another appropriate spot. quote:- This is wishy washy. He was pleasant without being overly trusting. Sorry, this point of mine could have been clearer. I should have said "Still been pleasant without being overly trusting". I wasn't suggesting a change to the scene (which is why I did not say "rather than" like I did in my other two ideas). This was a qualifier in rebuttal to how people seemed to think that saying Joel taking reasonable precautions (outlined in the first two points) must also mean he becomes a paranoid and unfriendly weirdo who is a moment away from gunning down everyone in the room. If you watched the scene and it did not bother you, then that's fine. But to me the scene felt contrived and fits into a larger pattern in the game where the writing was unsatisfactory.
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Jul 10, 2020 18:24
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Just beat it, really enjoyed it, though I'm struggling to figure out a narrative purpose for the Rattlers other than "we need an enemy for the Santa Barbara chapter, specifically so Abby can be hosed up when you find her."
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Jul 10, 2020 20:31
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It’s I think so you know the fireflies are gone for good
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Jul 10, 2020 20:35
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Arist posted:Just beat it, really enjoyed it, though I'm struggling to figure out a narrative purpose for the Rattlers other than "we need an enemy for the Santa Barbara chapter, specifically so Abby can be hosed up when you find her." I like to imagine they made the dog the bounty hunter looking Rattler and just couldn’t not put him in the game somehow.
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Jul 10, 2020 20:36
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Dog the bounty hunter running in from off screen and punching lev off his feet made me legitimately lol
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Jul 10, 2020 20:39
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In It For The Tank posted:I agree with all of this and expressed the same sentiment in my post that Joel is not unkillable. But I stress that my problem isn't the outcome of the scene, it's the (pun-intended) execution. In It For The Tank posted:Eh... it's a visual medium. You'll have to imagine me doing a pronounced gallic shrug at this point. Joel was armed but it didn't do him any good. In It For The Tank posted:I note that Tommy, with the same information as Joel, stayed close to the door and had his back to a wall in a way that did not raise anyone's suspicions or interfere with the scene. There is nothing stopping Joel from doing the same thing, either by standing next to Tommy or in another appropriate spot. Tommy wasn't in a good position. Not that it matters in that situation, but leaning against a bar with access to both of the exits blocked is not a good spot. We know this because he barely had time to shift his weight back to his feet before being overpowered. Joel was theoretically in a better spot, having crossed the room to be close to the door on the other side. But there is no good tactical position that you can take in a room with eight people in it and no cover if it turns out that they want to kill you. The only precaution is to not go into the room. I honestly don't understand the people who are ok with him entering the room but then aren't ok with where he was standing. The ship has sailed once you're in the room. In It For The Tank posted:Sorry, this point of mine could have been clearer. I should have said "Still been pleasant without being overly trusting". I wasn't suggesting a change to the scene (which is why I did not say "rather than" like I did in my other two ideas). This was a qualifier in rebuttal to how people seemed to think that saying Joel taking reasonable precautions (outlined in the first two points) must also mean he becomes a paranoid and unfriendly weirdo who is a moment away from gunning down everyone in the room. In It For The Tank posted:If you watched the scene and it did not bother you, then that's fine. But to me the scene felt contrived and fits into a larger pattern in the game where the writing was unsatisfactory. Here's a scene that is actually problematic. Ellie catches up with Nora, Nora gets spored, Ellie tortures Nora for information about where Abby is, and Nora tells her. Nora is dying, Ellie can't check the veracity of what Nora says, so Nora has no reason whatsoever to tell Ellie the truth, but she does it anyway (not even where Abby is at that moment, which would at least have been dangerous for Ellie, but where she's going to be). Actual mistake in the scene resulting from narrative pressures requiring that Ellie gets a big emotional moment, the player gets a solid hit of "are we the baddies?" and the story progresses because Ellie has another clue. But it doesn't make sense. Nora doesn't want to tell Ellie the truth and doesn't have to but she nevertheless does. You see the difference? There's something different that one of the characters involved realistically would have done that would have changed the outcome of the scene as it played out.
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Jul 10, 2020 20:43
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Necrothatcher posted:I really don't know if it's in Abby's character as written for her to secretly infiltrate a society over the course of many weeks while secretly planning to betray them. Everything about her seems to be hit 'em fast, hit 'em hard and get the gently caress out. She's emotional and impulsive rather than a schemer. Yeah, people aren't saying that Abby should've done that instead and it was definitely something she would, just that it would've been an even more hype story if it had gone like the first two episodes of Phantom Blood or The Count of Monte Cristo. Like think about it, Abby shows up, she's got no one, she's not the life of the party to be fair, keeps to her self does her job, wipes out infected like no one's ever seen besides Joel, Tommy and Ellie, always willing to lend a hand with things, hell, maybe she tells people she used to be a Firefly once it becomes known that she's not the only one and they aren't going to kick them out if they find out. Months go by and then BAM Joel's disappeared, Abby's gone and they don't find the former until days later harpooned on a tree with another tree. I don't get why everyone's getting so hung up on Abby beating Joel to death though, it seems a lot more in line with what I'd expect from her. If they'd dragged him outside capped him in the head and buried him in the snow to make finding his body harder that would surprise me more because man she was really planning this poo poo out for a long time. I guess people would've preferred this is all it really comes down to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihbPBIwnM0I
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Jul 10, 2020 20:48
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Eau de MacGowan posted:Dog the bounty hunter running in from off screen and punching lev off his feet made me legitimately lol https://twitter.com/Swol_Radguy/status/1273825167098208257?s=20 It is kind of over the top in a way
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Jul 10, 2020 20:50
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He looked very dead after that. I thought it was a lovely way for him to go until they say he's alive.
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Jul 10, 2020 20:57
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RareAcumen posted:I don't get why everyone's getting so hung up on Abby beating Joel to death though, it seems a lot more in lin with what I'd expect from her.
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Jul 10, 2020 20:57
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Cardiovorax posted:She does have those muscles for something, after all. It's like the times spent punching people to death meant nothing to you.
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Jul 10, 2020 21:09
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Those were just business punchings, they didn't mean anything. Joel's the only one for her.
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Jul 10, 2020 21:11
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Arist posted:Just beat it, really enjoyed it, though I'm struggling to figure out a narrative purpose for the Rattlers other than "we need an enemy for the Santa Barbara chapter, specifically so Abby can be hosed up when you find her." It's not a narrative purpose at all--it's worldbuilding consistent with the theme of "human society, left to its own devices after a global catastrophe, splinters into smaller and smaller armed camps of psychopathic murderers."
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Jul 10, 2020 21:20
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Bust Rodd posted:It’s I think so you know the fireflies are gone for good You see Abby and Lev’s boat made it to the Firefly dome building on the title screen after you beat the game, so presumably they are still around. The building is flying several white flags though on formal flag poles. I don’t think we are meant to think they have surrendered but it does add some ambiguity unintentionally (similar to how the slave compound also just happens to be an unrelated dome building. I don’t think we are supposed to think it was a trap and the radio call was fake).
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Jul 10, 2020 21:24
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Arist posted:Just beat it, really enjoyed it, though I'm struggling to figure out a narrative purpose for the Rattlers other than "we need an enemy for the Santa Barbara chapter, specifically so Abby can be hosed up when you find her." Gotta get to back into the swing of playing Ellie again and you can't have Abby and Lev ambushed by infected because if that happens then they just die. Infected don't kidnap, they just eat that delicious delicious jugular and leave the rest to rot.
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Jul 10, 2020 21:29
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Madurai posted:It's not a narrative purpose at all--it's worldbuilding consistent with the theme of "human society, left to its own devices after a global catastrophe, splinters into smaller and smaller armed camps of psychopathic murderers." Well, that should still serve some kind of thematic purpose, as it is they just kind of come out of nowhere. Personally, I think it makes the most sense for Abby and Lev to have made contact with the real Fireflies and it not just being a trap, because Abby has moved on from the cycle of revenge at this point and a fakeout wouldn't really serve a purpose. It's definitely ambiguous though.
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Jul 10, 2020 21:29
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RareAcumen posted:Gotta get to back into the swing of playing Ellie again and you can't have Abby and Lev ambushed by infected because if that happens then they just die. Infected don't kidnap, they just eat that delicious delicious jugular and leave the rest to rot. Honestly, I think you could have cut down the number of encounters in the SB segment to maybe a warmup and then a big one on the scope of the last combat encounter of the hospital in 1, because by that point in the game I get the idea and there's no need to drag it out.
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Jul 10, 2020 21:31
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Arist posted:Honestly, I think you could have cut down the number of encounters in the SB segment to maybe a warmup and then a big one on the scope of the last combat encounter of the hospital in 1, because by that point in the game I get the idea and there's no need to drag it out. Honestly I wish it had been bigger. I let the infected loose and then they just tore the entire camp apart. If you're not traveling with Abby or Ellie you are absolute trash at fighting them as it turns out.
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Jul 10, 2020 21:36
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bobjr posted:https://twitter.com/Swol_Radguy/status/1273825167098208257?s=20 I only just noticed the arrow flying offscreen.
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Jul 10, 2020 21:53
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I haven't finished the game yet and I think I've got a ways to go. Do you unlock anything afterwards like in their other games, like costumes and filters etc?
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Jul 10, 2020 22:21
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You get to keep your weapon upgrades going into NG+ and every time Abby beats Joel to death she's using a different piece of sporting equipment. One of these things isn't true but they both should be.
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Jul 10, 2020 22:36
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Arist posted:Just beat it, really enjoyed it, though I'm struggling to figure out a narrative purpose for the Rattlers other than "we need an enemy for the Santa Barbara chapter, specifically so Abby can be hosed up when you find her." I just beat it too and the Rattler stuff definitely felt like it was from a longer sequence that got cut down.
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Jul 10, 2020 22:50
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All the focus on "the scene would've been fine if Joel had done x or y" I think is the kind of youtuber discourse of yelling "PLAT HOLE!" at stuff. Which the bad faith psychos do love to latch on to. Like it's a legitimate criticism of I dunno, the tactical realism of the piece, but it's such a tiny nitpick. It's like if one expository line of dialogue would fix a huge issue with a plot point, it's not a huge issue. Just pretend those few inconsiquential seconds went the way you imagined to get you to the actual substance of the scene. (See also: Admiral Holdo saying she can't tell people the plan because they fear there's a spy.) Also important to remember that characters, like people, should not be 100% consistent and can make mistakes. I don't care what he's been through, it seems totally possible that with the adrenaline wearing off and ears still ringing, Joel just got a little comfy and didn't think to KEEP HIS BACK TO THE DOOR WITH ONE HAND ON THE KNOB TURNING TO HIS SIDE TO REDUCE HIS CENTER OF MASS AFTER IDENTIFYING SAFE COVER AND ESCAPE ROUTES or whatever.
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Jul 11, 2020 00:18
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If your entire comment on the conversation boils down to "man, that complaint is so petty and inconsequential, your opinion doesn't even matter," then it wasn't really worth posting. You really didn't contribute anything here.
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Jul 11, 2020 00:26
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