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Toshimo posted:This is so incredibly tone-deaf. For people whose livelihood is specifically dependent on the income of their actual play content, sure, these are important considerations. What are the portion, in the field, of people who are in that position, vs. people who have a day job and do this stuff essentially as a hobby or a non-essential side hustle?
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Jul 12, 2020 16:58
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 17:04
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I dunno if I'm super comfortable with the idea that it's okay for creators to work with toxic things just because they need money. I, too, need money but if I chose to make money by associating myself with openly toxic assholes then I don't think my decisions being questioned and me being held accountable for my choices would be out of line, even if those toxic assholes will let me make money easier/in a way I prefer to.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Is there such a thing as a non-essential side hustle in this economy? I'm following quite a few very small-time content creators who've found themselves leaning more heavily into their "side hustle" because they got furloughed or fired or downsized or what not.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:22
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 17:24
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There are also other versions of Dungeons & Dragons you could stream if you absolutely need the name recognition. I don't give a poo poo about AP streams in general, but I'd probably tune in to 2e AD&D or B/X just to see it played.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:27
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 17:31
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Darwinism posted:I dunno if I'm super comfortable with the idea that it's okay for creators to work with toxic things just because they need money. I, too, need money but if I chose to make money by associating myself with openly toxic assholes then I don't think my decisions being questioned and me being held accountable for my choices would be out of line, even if those toxic assholes will let me make money easier/in a way I prefer to. I personally don't have it in me to get mad about that poo poo, because I too have or do work in fields that I utterly abhor(I actively vote and campaign against private health insurance, which is literally the field I work in) . Or consume and participate in entertainment that I hate just about everything about the organization that creates/puts it on(shout out to the NCAA, NFL, MLB, and often even the NBA). I use Amazon, and shop at Wal-Mart etc etc I can't tell people where to draw their own lines without feeling like an absurd hypocrite. moths posted:There are also other versions of Dungeons & Dragons you could stream if you absolutely need the name recognition. There is literally no world where I would ever want to watch a live play or podcast of a 2e or 3/3.5 game, potentially 4e video I suppose, for like a fun tactical game.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:39
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Even if people you already like were playing it? Would people realit be like "oh this season isn't 5e? I'm out."
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Jul 12, 2020 17:47
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Darwinism posted:I dunno if I'm super comfortable with the idea that it's okay for creators to work with toxic things just because they need money. I, too, need money but if I chose to make money by associating myself with openly toxic assholes then I don't think my decisions being questioned and me being held accountable for my choices would be out of line, even if those toxic assholes will let me make money easier/in a way I prefer to. The consequence of there being no ethical consumption under capitalism is that all choices are between starvation and whose blood money to accept. And the blood on the money you get from a creative enedeavour that also serves to, in a secondary capacity, promote WotC products, honestly seems pretty thinned out compared to, I don't know, megacorporations whose products are sourced in countries where union leaders are assassinated to keep prices down or whatever. Like, at some point we just have to accept that nobody can be taken to task for very minor things.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:52
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moths posted:Even if people you already like were playing it? Yeah, it's happened to multiple AP podcast lol. I know the McElroys did a bunch of test small games in different systems which all lost viewers and then they followed it up with a PBTA game that did worse than their current 5E viewership is. People that are only kind of sort of into Tabletop stuff casually don't really care about better systems or what not, they wanna listen to someone play/play themselves that game they've heard about through cultural osmosis and on that netflix show they loved.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:53
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moths posted:Would people realit be like "oh this season isn't 5e? I'm out." Yes, and it's not even a contentious point. It has happened, multiple times. I don't even know how people can be so willfully blind to this point.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:56
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I think that's why a different edition probably wouldn't make a difference, though. The people who are there for D&D brand recognition likely couldn't care less about what numbers come after the cultural signpost.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:58
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Toshimo posted:Yes, and it's not even a contentious point. It has happened, multiple times. I don't even know how people can be so willfully blind to this point. It's incredibly sad and dumb but yeah it's a Thing. Part of it's probably cultural osmosis and casual fans not wanting or caring about the more niche games in the industry, part of it's probably because those same AP podcasts got people to start their own D&D game and most people just barely want to learn 1 system and part of it is because it's the game being actively supported so if you want to try it out it's all out on This Snazzy New App being advertised everywhere. Which is why different editions really wouldn't work. D&D editions are not interchangeable in terms of what their tone is and what they provide as far as narrative possibilities go. People interested in seeing wizard poo poo and long form story telling aren't really going to get much out of Basic (or even really 2E) since the its basically a table top rogue like where death is quick and always around the corner and you basically have to have multiple characters prepped in case you instantly eat it cause you're level 4 or lower. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jul 12, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 17:59
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Dexo posted:There is literally no world where I would ever want to watch a live play or podcast of a 2e or 3/3.5 game, potentially 4e video I suppose, for like a fun tactical game. I'd watch 2e or B/X. I'd rather watch paint dry than 3e.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:01
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 18:03
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Aside from the D&D cachet, I wonder if 5E is ideally suited for performance and improv because it has so little GM-facing structure compared to past editions and a lot of other games. No, its just bad enough everyone is fine with ignoring the rules and making poo poo up as much as possible. 5E's whole stance is "we cant come up with something good, you do it!"
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Jul 12, 2020 18:13
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:and on that netflix show they loved. My viewing of Stranger Things is incomplete, but I’d be surprised to learn that they were playing 5E.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:13
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 18:14
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I feel like there's untapped appeal of "this is the game Elliot played in E.T., not the licensed knockoff some shitheads made recently." But yeah maybe that's a bridge too far for viewers.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What rules do they commonly ignore? I know that one of the most popular 5E rules to ignore in APs (that players get frumpy about if you enforce at the table) is that using potions is a full action that basically eats your whole turn and that, no, your rogues still can't do it as a bonus action.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:17
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Subjunctive posted:My viewing of Stranger Things is incomplete, but I’d be surprised to learn that they were playing 5E. The most direct reference we can find is that they were playing B/X
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Jul 12, 2020 18:18
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 18:26
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gradenko_2000 posted:The most direct reference we can find is that they were playing B/X Subjunctive posted:My viewing of Stranger Things is incomplete, but I’d be surprised to learn that they were playing 5E. Yeah if you follow that with the rest of t hat post and my next one it's clear I'm talking about the Brand in that sentence (And then go on to talk about why people are attaching themselves to the modern version of that Brand.) But really miss the point on purpose first.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:30
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 18:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's not really GM-facing, and I'm also not sure what that has to do with making the performance better. It doesn't seem like it would get more or less in the way of improv, since it's just a minor alteration of the player's in-game mechanical options. Mechanically, being able to just freely slap potions all the time like they are stimpacks in DOOM takes a lot of tactical consideration right out of combat, because it's trivially easy to recover from anything, and everything is much less lethal, so players get to really ignore combat math/optimization in favor of doofy improv spotlight stuff, because they won't get as punished for it. If you can waste 3 rounds setting up a rube goldberg machine to defeat an enemy because your party is more or less invincible due to freely chugging pots, that makes for better stream viewing, but it's not the way RAW 5e works and I've been at plenty of tables where people got frustrated that they got pummeled by trivial enemies while they tried to mimic AP style.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:32
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what shows are you watching where they run circled Tom and Jerry style around enemies because they infinitely drink potions
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Jul 12, 2020 18:37
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 18:37
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Someone mentioned in this thread the difference between being listed as Dungeons and Dragons on Twitch and generic Tabletop. What would be the penalty for just lying and setting the stream game as Dungeons and Dragons and just loudly playing a separate game? People forget to change their Current Game all the time and I've never seen anything come of it.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:38
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Toshimo posted:Mechanically, being able to just freely slap potions all the time like they are stimpacks in DOOM takes a lot of tactical consideration right out of combat, because it's trivially easy to recover from anything, and everything is much less lethal, so players get to really ignore combat math/optimization in favor of doofy improv spotlight stuff, because they won't get as punished for it. If you can waste 3 rounds setting up a rube goldberg machine to defeat an enemy because your party is more or less invincible due to freely chugging pots, that makes for better stream viewing, but it's not the way RAW 5e works and I've been at plenty of tables where people got frustrated that they got pummeled by trivial enemies while they tried to mimic AP style. What games are you watching, where that happens? Most potion house rules/homebrew I see is just making them a Bonus action.
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Jul 12, 2020 18:44
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i do think there's a weirdly selective emphasis on creatives being responsible for distancing themselves from lovely employers compared to most professions i'm not sure what the actionable conclusion of that observation is, because gently caress WotC, but nonetheless
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Jul 12, 2020 18:46
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Try reading it this way: Tuxedo Catfish posted:i do think there's a weirdly selective emphasis on brand promoters being responsible for distancing themselves from lovely employers compared to most professions E: It's a medium where audiences watch hours of advertisement for a brand. Most companies would kill for this kind of exposure - WotC has leveraged it in the past with the paid Penny Arcade tie-ins, but now it's self- perpetuating. AP casts are in a unique position to hand out tens of thousands hours of strong engagement eyes-on-brand endorsement. It's frustrating when they're acting to benefit a mediocre game created by assholes for the benefit of a lovely company. Especially when they could be leveraging their influence to normalize a better community. moths fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jul 12, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 18:49
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I think what is frustrating me right now about the Industry Chat thread is that I think this is a New Coke situation all over again. People aren't drinking coca-cola because of the superior flavor and better taste. People are drinking the coke because of nostalgia. If you assume that people are into D&D because of the system, or the cultural cachet, and they're into the AP because they enjoy the people who are performing for them, then no, it doesn't make any sense that Griffin ignoring the rules to Monster of the Week instead of ignoring the rules to D&D is causing a huge segment of the viewership to leave the AP behind. But it does, so clearly people aren't watching APs for the mechanics of the system or the cultural cachet - as we usually conceptualize it. I think people/viewers/consumers really care about the implied setting and baggage inherit into races and classes in D&D. It's not about what Tiefling means as a setting element in the Forgotten Realms, nobody actually cares about the Forgotten Realms. It's about the queer-coded cultural institution that tieflings have embodied in TikTok videos and tumblr memes, along with horny bards and goliath barbarians. Basically what I'm getting at is that D&D - the brand - has become a fandom, and telling AP producers to just stop playing D&D is like telling the actors of Supernatural to quit the show because ViacomCBS is such a super-lovely company that has enabled sexual abuse multiple times. Hey, that's great and all that you're willing to make this sacrifice on someone else's behalf in service of your moral stance, but don't be surprised when Jensen Ackles tells you get out of his face.
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Jul 12, 2020 20:51
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No, but you see. These people are millionaires (They aren't, not that it would matter) and can afford to pour gasoline on everything they've worked for and light the match! Maybe I'm not at the level of cynicism yet to be completely heartless, but I cannot expect people to throw years of work down the drain (also years of work done by many other people involved, in some cases). Last pages ridiculous Olive Garden comparison got really dumb by the end, too. As I've mentioned already, in my case? I'm not the stubborn person trying to only play 5E, I'm over here trying to get my players to consider playing a game that is both similar to 5E but also made by a one-man-show who somehow has managed to produce more steady content than WotC despite that. I would not be shocked if a lot of people are in the same boat, they'd like to run/play another game but their friends really aren't budging. And no that isn't a good enough reason to sever from your friends, either.
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Jul 12, 2020 21:22
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moths posted:Even if people you already like were playing it?  Savjz is a popular Hearthstone streamer. You can see exactly when he stopped streaming hearthstone and when he started doing so again.
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Jul 12, 2020 21:28
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Videogame streams are a totally different beast though, a different game is going to be thoroughly dissimilar with completely different visuals. To an audience, there's less meaningful visual distinction between a D&D and GURPS stream than there is between Doom and Hearthstone. Unless people are genuinely watching D&D 5e streams because they're wildly in love with seeing its mechanics? That seems unlikely af. E: There's also a really irritating tone that desiring D&D not to be the the status quo is something a brutal assault on AP streamers, when in reality by perpetuating D&D's industry chokehold they're contributing to harming indie designers. moths fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jul 12, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 21:53
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e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 21:55
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I read that and it's not really a good comparison at all - It's not like viewers won't go near CSI because they already like Supernatural.
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Jul 12, 2020 22:02
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moths posted:E: There's also a really irritating tone that desiring D&D not to be the the status quo is something a brutal assault on AP streamers, when in reality by perpetuating D&D's industry chokehold they're contributing to harming indie designers. Literally nobody is saying this but you.
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Jul 12, 2020 22:19
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moths posted:I read that and it's not really a good comparison at all - It's not like viewers won't go near CSI because they already like Supernatural. ...well, that’s not quite true. It’s not quite as bad as it was when timeslot competition was all, thanks to online streaming, but people absolutely do choose one show to watch over another, because time in your life is limited.
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Jul 12, 2020 22:34
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