|
Is there a good deep dive on what makes the design of 5e so... meh? Ideally audio so that I can listen to someone complain about elf games while I work.
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 18:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 20:07 |
|
|
Josef bugman posted:That is understandable. Microscope had an expansion (Explorer) with a module that's all about using it to build a setting for another game. You can, however, play an entire game in Microscope with scenes and character interactions and people overcoming challenges or failing gloriously or whatever. When people are getting used to the system, it tends to hew closer to setting creation because the way Microscope handles scenes is a lot more like an improv workshop than what people might be used to from more traditional RPGs. This can make it feel safer to describe an event from a high level than to thrust everyone into a scene where we might all be playing characters that didn't exist until right now. There is nothing in Microscope preventing you from playing out the exact same story as a D&D campaign. Define a period, a dark time where resurrection spells no longer work and death is permanent. Define an event within that period, bands of adventurers set forth to the continent of Chult to search for the source of the curse of undeath. Then play out nothing but scenes in chronological order describing the adventures of one of those bands. It will play nothing like D&D, and it will go in directions that the person who described the Period and the Event never expected, but that's basically Tomb of Annihilation, Microscope style. Also everyone should read Microscope (and Follow, same designer) because it does an incredible job of describing how to play without relying on imported assumptions from other RPGs
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 18:43
|
|
|
HerraS posted:Here's an analogy for you: 5e is lovely diarrhea from a butt If I am going to have lovely diarrhea, I want it to be from a butt.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 19:02
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 19:35
|
|
|
Thanlis posted:Oh god no. Blades is rules heavy. The action roll core mechanic is 10 pages all by itself, including the material on effect, positioning, and consequences — which is important. It’s one of the most complex core mechanics I’ve ever seen. Okay, I'm going to be charitable here and assume you just have no idea that you've deliberately crippled your Blades example to create maximum confusion. That's understandable! D&D and Blades have two different philosophies of dice. D&D is a task-resolution system - its dice mechanics focus on taking an abstract task, asking if you can perform it, and getting a simple yes-or-no answer. Hurt some thugs? That's an attack roll! The task itself operates in a larger framework, such as a "combat", and it's the operation of that framework that turns those yesses and noes into the actual progression of the adventure story. You don't need to know anything about that framework in order to know how to perform the task, though, which is why a common thread of D&D humor is somebody "casting magic missile at the darkness" - losing themselves in the framework and trying to perform a task there are no hooks for. Blades in the Dark is a story-resolution system - its dice mechanics focus on being a pivot point inside a larger story, where something dramatic is happening and the outcome is in doubt. As a result, correctly adjudicating these mechanics involves interrogating the story to determine how they should operate and what the results should be. If you don't provide a story, then of course using those mechanics is going to seem like one of those nightmares where you can never find anything you're looking for. But when you actually play the game, the story's going to be right there with you, and you'll know who the thugs are and why you want to hurt them. So here's a story: Candlestick's crew is doing a little smash-and-grab on a curiosity shop outside their usual stomping grounds, to grab a trinket that's worth a lot to the right people. So they need to case the joint after hours, but some street toughs are squatting on the stoop like they own the place. Candlestick (who got his name from what a drainpipe looks like after he gives it a good squeeze) cracks his neck and stomps toward the thugs, to hurt them so they'll run off and lick their wounds, leaving the crew to case the place at their leisure. Something dramatic is happening and the outcome is in doubt! Time for an action roll. First! What's the action? Well, Candlestick's getting in a regular fight, so the action is Skirmish, the regular fight action for getting in regular fights. Second! What's Candlestick's position? The default position for all actions is "risky". Candlestick has taken no special steps to secure an advantage and neither have the street toughs, so it stays at "risky". Third! What's Candlestick's effect and what's it mean? The default effect for all actions is "standard". Candlestick is basically a street tough, albeit with aspirations, so there's no base difference in quality. Candlestick's outnumbered by an order of gangitude, so he's down one, but he's a Cutter with a fine hand weapon he can pull, so let's assume he's back up one. We're back to standard. Which, sure, is enough to run off some street toughs of no particular provenance. "Limited" would be fighting them to a standstill - occupying their attention and buying the crew time to case the place but not a whole lot of it, because there's only so long you can stretch out a fight before something goes crazy. "Great" would be taking more definite control, knocking them out or taking a captive one of his more talkative crewmates might pump for information. Fourth! Is that your final answer? Everything up to this point has happened in the GM's head, but before the dice roll happens they lay out the mechanics in front of Candlestick('s player) to confirm. Well, most of them. The GM needs an idea of what one effect level up or down are because Candlestick might succeed with less effect, trade position for effect, or push himself for greater effect, but technically they don't have to work out what happens unless that happenstance comes up. Laying them out is just to confirm that the GM and Candlestick are looking at the story the same way - Candlestick is going to pull a weapon and Skirmish with the street toughs, a risky action that nets out to standard effect, which is enough to run them off - and give Candlestick a chance to tweak the roll. Fifth! Dice happen. If Candlestick doesn't hit it clean the GM assigns consequences based on what's appropriate in the story - Candlestick might get hurt running the thugs off, or only be able to get limited effect and just buy some time, or attract some attention and the GM starts sticking segments on a "Neighborhood Suspicion" clock. The GM and Candlestick come up with what happens afterward, at least enough to close out Candlestick's portion of the action and pass the baton over to Ms. Nobody, who is itching to start casing the joint. Glazius fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jul 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 19:54
|
|
|
blades is quite simple to run imo. i wish other games had such a clear and elegant core mechanic that also lets you get very deep into it if you like. its real weakness is in how resistance works, and if a player figures out that they should build wide rather than tall (to steal from strategy games for a moment) they become quite tanky, when blades pcs are already tough. i also miss devil's bargains in basically every other game out there
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:01
|
|
|
Glazius posted:Third! What's Candlestick's effect and what's it mean? The default effect for all actions is "standard". Candlestick is basically a street tough, albeit with aspirations, so there's no base difference in quality. Candlestick's outnumbered by an order of gangitude, so he's down one, but he's a Cutter with a fine hand weapon he can pull, so let's assume he's back up one. We're back to standard. Which, sure, is enough to run off some street toughs of no particular provenance. "Limited" would be fighting them to a standstill - occupying their attention and buying the crew time to case the place but not a whole lot of it, because there's only so long you can stretch out a fight before something goes crazy. "Great" would be taking more definite control, knocking them out or taking a captive one of his more talkative crewmates might pump for information. Actually, you need to start with Tier because Candlestick's fine hand weapon does not by default change Effect. If Candlestick and the toughs are the same tier (determined by Candlestick's crew and the tough's faction) then the fine weapon pushes Candlestick to Great and then being outnumbered pushes it back down. But if the toughs are one or more tier higher than Candlestick then all the fine weapon does is push them to the same level, which keeps it at Standard that gets pushed down to Limited by scale. And the effect of Effect (haha) depends entirely on the context. You could judge it entirely in the fiction the way you described, but this points you in a difficult position the second time Candlestick Skirmishes. Is another Limited effect action sufficient to drive off the toughs, or does Candlestick need Standard to accomplish that? You might instead choose to give the gang of toughs a clock and let the effect of the Skirmish tick off the clock (limited = 1, Standard = 2, etc). Then you could factor the potential of toughs running off to make trouble for another PC into consequences of a partial success.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:06
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:08
|
|
|
Kaiju15 posted:Is there a good deep dive on what makes the design of 5e so... meh? Ideally audio so that I can listen to someone complain about elf games while I work. https://systemmasterypodcast.com/2019/06/18/dungeons-dragons-5th-edition-system-mastery-150/
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:10
|
|
|
Glazius posted:Okay, I'm going to be charitable here and assume you just have no idea that you've deliberately crippled your Blades example to create maximum confusion. That's understandable! D&D and Blades have two different philosophies of dice. This is a good post and gets to the point that I think was missed earlier. What looks like complexity in Blades is actually just a systematic method for ensuring that everyone has an equal understanding of the fiction before going to the dice. It's why it does theatre of the mind so well because it tells you explicitly how to sync up everyone's expectation before moving forward. Just like Apocalypse World's MC moves, it's taking the time to formalise the kind of good GMing practice that badly written games expect you to have learned from cultural osmosis.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:12
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:26
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:When does the actual content start? The beginning is full of weird shock jock boner pill jokes. Oh man I haven't seen a "why isn't this show just dry presentation of facts" complaint in like four years. That takes me back.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:47
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:50
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:They're literally doing some weird goof-off about their loving sponsorship with boner jokes having to do with some weird subliminal thing. The guy also had to dig out his book to remind himself when 5th Edition came out. There's entertaining presentation and then there's this trash. *Psst* You are responding to one of the people who makes the show. They know what they're on about. And they gave 5th edition all the respect it deserves.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:51
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:They're literally doing some weird goof-off about their loving sponsorship with boner jokes having to do with some weird subliminal thing. The guy also had to dig out his book to remind himself when 5th Edition came out. There's entertaining presentation and then there's this trash. Right there with you, that guy's short term memory completely sucks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:52
|
|
|
Pocky In My Pocket posted:I'm trying to work out what I like about D&D to see what people recommend as despite being into gaming for like 30 years I feel like I don't have that wide a base of games. I've only seen one other poster give you a recommendation, so I'd like to toss out Earthdawn. High-fantasy adventure in a land that is rebuilding after a magical apocalypse. There's a lot of built-in variety for different types of adventure gaming--exploration, dungeon delving, intrigue & spying, community building--and plenty of setting information to provide for any kind of campaign you'd want to run in that framework. Character progression is key to the system and there's multiple ways for each PC to build up or branch out. It also has a unique mechanic for magical items that makes them more interesting than just "+1 Sword of Ice Damage." Mechanically, it is a bit more complicated than a D20 system, which is the only real downside I can think of for tables more used to D&D or Pathfinder. You can get a Quick Start from FASA here which explains the rules; it's also available on Drivethru.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:53
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Right there with you, that guy's short term memory completely sucks. Lol
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:56
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:57
|
|
|
theironjef posted:Right there with you, that guy's short term memory completely sucks. He definitely isn't cut out for podcasting, that's for sure
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:58
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:59
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:They're literally doing some weird goof-off about their loving sponsorship with boner jokes having to do with some weird subliminal thing. The guy also had to dig out his book to remind himself when 5th Edition came out. There's entertaining presentation and then there's this trash. How dare you criticise trash without having memorised the requisite number of trash facts in advance
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 20:59
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:00
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:"AA, why are you throwing your hands up pretending this thread is insular and cliquish and unapproachable like Freemasonry" You're not supposed to feel bad you're just supposed to realize no one gives a poo poo about your minor complaints.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:01
|
|
|
e: nm
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Literally the job of some very interesting Youtubers. Try Lost in Adaptation for a taste of how you actually criticize trash to get something interesting out of it. Also how to script and tie in your sponsors. Do they pass the very important test of memorising the release date of each item they discuss
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:03
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:"AA, why are you throwing your hands up pretending this thread is insular and cliquish and unapproachable like Freemasonry" If it helps you feel at ease, I didn't ask anyone to push it in here, and I don't care if you trash it. Not for everyone and all. I would recommend that (not just you but anyone) people try listening to an episode about a game they've never heard of instead of a game they're predisposed towards defending. Almost all of our complaint emails tend to start with like "I've been playing Stormbringer for 15 years so when I saw a review of it was online I was excited to read an obviously glowing review, but gently caress you guys directly" and so on. And while I appreciate the advice regarding a script, the show isn't an old RPGnet review, it's more a freeform comedy discussion thing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:04
|
|
|
Kaiju15 posted:Is there a good deep dive on what makes the design of 5e so... meh? Ideally audio so that I can listen to someone complain about elf games while I work. Short story is 5e wasn't primarily designed to be good, it was primarily designed to "feel like D&D" (3.x in particular). The focus wasn't on making a good game. Piell fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jul 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:05
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:"AA, why are you throwing your hands up pretending this thread is insular and cliquish and unapproachable like Freemasonry" The fact that you're a poorly-read dumbass is on no one but you. Your entire gimmick is JAQing off about tabletop games and refusing to learn anything when people respond. You're like hyphz except passive-aggressive and even less funny. e; with apologies to hyphz, who doesn't deserve the comparison. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jul 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:05
|
|
|
Quote isn't edit!Absurd Alhazred posted:It's fine, I don't give a poo poo about the luminaries of this thread, so it's mutual. I'm a thread luminary? That's rad as gently caress!
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:05
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:"AA, why are you throwing your hands up pretending this thread is insular and cliquish and unapproachable like Freemasonry" To be fair there's a decent few goons in this subforum that either are part of the industry in some way or have formed platforms regarding the hobby. It's less cliquey and more that you're just in a good place to find that stuff because one of the hosts is literally a poster. Also it is a little funny, chill a bit.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:08
|
|
|
Tarnop posted:How dare you criticise trash without having memorised the requisite number of trash facts in advance i mean... yeah? if you're just shitposting and calling it bad, sure, don't worry about it, but if you're actually doing in-depth criticism you should probably have an in-depth knowledge of the thing you're criticizing, regardless of if it's trash that one review of FATAL wouldn't have been nearly as funny as it is if the reviewer hadn't gone through that poo poo in exhaustive detail
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:11
|
|
|
WeedlordGoku69 posted:i mean... yeah? To be clear before this thread gets dragged into another deep argument about nothing the fact you're talking about is the year it came out. admanb fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:12
|
|
|
Alright let's get all of the bad analogies out of our systems. D&D 5e is like a restaurant Restaurant menus are much bigger than they used to be, e.g. McDonald's only fairly recently added espresso drinks. One reason menus are bigger is to deny the denier. If I'm deciding with a group of friends where we're going to eat, my vegetarianism gives me a veto over where we go. Only 5% of Americans are vegetarians BUT if there's one vegetarian in a group of four people, not having a vegetarian dish costs you four sales, not one, so now almost every restaurant has a token vegetarian entree. So D&D 5e offers players everything and the huge kitchen sink. For example, they put gnomes and half-orcs back into the core book after cutting them in 4e because 5% of people really loving gnomes meant 20% of groups had a player who was pissed their favorite race was cut. D&D 5e is like a four-quadrant movie Film producers talk about the four quadrants a movie can appeal to: Men under 25, women under 25, men over 25, and women over 25. One and two quadrant movies are great and can be very successful, but they aren't even trying to appeal to everybody. Part of the problem with 4e was that it was a one-quadrant game: It catered mostly to people who wanted to do tactical wargaming, so everyone who wanted something besides that either stuck with 3e or switched to Pathfinder. So they made 5e which has something for everybody at the cost of nobody really loving any part of it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:20
|
|
|
the number of people who are extremely mad that System Mastery isn’t doing ~serious elfgame academic discourse~ never ceases to amaze bet those silly podcasters can’t even remember the hit adjustment of a guisarme-voulge vs. AC3, heh 
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:25
|
|
|
Gobbeldygook posted:Alright let's get all of the bad analogies out of our systems. 5e is like Voldemort.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:29
|
|
|
admanb posted:To be clear before this thread gets dragged into another deep argument about nothing the fact you're talking about is the year it came out. i'm just speaking generally because that seemed like a weird counter  i agree with you that in this particular case it's a dumb hair to split
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:37
|
|
|
WeedlordGoku69 posted:i'm just speaking generally because that seemed like a weird counter I think we're on the same page, and by "trash facts" I did mean dumb hairsplitting as opposed to knowing about the thing being criticised
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:48
|
|
|
One thing missed in the analogy party is that the positive experience and associations are getting specifically attributed to (initial brand) rather than the hobby. McDonald's is actually a very good comparison here because it explicitly targets new consumers (ie: children). It offers toys, a playground, special menu, and an overall experience specifically tailored to form positive brand experiences and a permanent loyalty. Most importantly, they learn to associate the positive experience with McDonald's. They don't learn "going to a restaurant is fun," they learn "McDonald's is fun." The whole point of the current wave of social marketing D&D is to implant that same association. New players see cool celebrities (being paid to) play D&D. They go to their local store's (Wizards-sponsored) D&D nights, and their primary interaction with TTRPGs is, from the start, a controlled environment calculated to draw a branded association. "D&D is fun," not RPGs. And it is fun! There's fun happening, you're part of it, your new friends are there, and they're happy to see you! But none of that fun actually comes from the 5e Dungeons & Dragons ruleset. It operates in much the same way that McDonald's nostalgia factory focuses on the experience around the food, not the food. It's the same reason WotC sponsors FNM. It's the same reason McDonald's targets kids. It's why kids think mac and cheese is orange. It tastes good and is orange, but orange isn't what makes it good. Orange it makes it "real" because it signals that it's the brand theyve been trained to like. Interestingly, it doesn't even really need to actively pursue market dominance at this stage. Enough groups have someone who's bought into it hard enough to insist that Real D&D is just better or more fun for reasons they can't exactly articulate. So let's just keep Nate happy and stick with D&D. The product WotC is marketing isn't 5th edition D&D, they're selling you time with your friends, and memories of previous good times you've had with them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:56
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:One of the flaws of PbtA-esque for me is always that I have to see it played before getting it myself, even something not terribly complicated like Masks. One of the strengths of well-written PbtA games is that each Move, by introducing facts and consequences in response to a trigger, creates stories. Central to the strength of this is that the outcomes are, for all that they're sometimes fairly abstract, pretty specific. You do something, then pick from a list, choosing which consequences you want. This isn't much of a thing in Blades, where there's basically one Move with the trigger "when the GM feels you should roll for something" and outcomes like "you succeed" and "there's a minor consequence" and "advance a clock". These don't actually tell the GM or the players what happens or what they should expect to happen when they roll the dice. It would be a far, far stronger game if it had some structure for how to make this happen.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 22:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 20:07 |
|
|
Again, actual plays with people who act and know the system would be a God send. People may not like being told what to do, but a kind of rough guide can be helpful, even if it's what you define yourself in opposition to it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 22:48
|
|
