|
I would honestly just like to know what people want. It's valid to say "it's lovely that trans representation is limited, and often involves misery". I agree with that. But... so? Like, Brokeback Mountain is a movie that is, mostly, about how lovely it is to be bisexual in a society that prefers everything fall neatly on one side or the other. It came out at a time when queer rep was even worse than it is now. And I don't recall a single person arguing against it for having a storyline about queers that struggle for their queerness.
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 16:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 18:12 |
|
|
i mostly recall people being "EW GAY MOVIE LOL" around that time so
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 16:58
|
|
|
I meant, of the serious critical discourse But also, yeah. A lot of people who didn't see it think it's about "gay cowboys" when it's actually a whole lot more than that, and goes into a lot of issues with rural poverty and society
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 17:00
|
|
|
Mr. Maggy posted:i mostly recall people being "EW GAY MOVIE LOL" around that time so I remember it being a butt of jokes, honestly even today I still most think of the movie and recognize that from what I can tell most people never actually saw the film and it's just "the gay cowboy film". But also the world was a different place then, so was culture, in a lot of ways.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 17:03
|
|
|
Onmi posted:You're right, it is silly, like I said, I don't know poo poo, I know my circle of friends and the tertiary people I come across and talk about stuff with. I didn't do fuckin' research into "So are people tired of dark games?" I can say "My friends circle and generally the people I've talked to are tired of it." But that's coded by the bias of... yeah I'm really similar in taste to a lot of my friends. We talk to similar people. I haven't done the proper leg work here. The problem with the "are people tired of dark games" is that by the time the research comes out, you're already halfway into development of your next dark game, then you need to adjust for what you think will be the market will like next time you release a game which might already be getting tainted by all the people who did the same research you just did. precision posted:I would honestly just like to know what people want. From the conversation I had today with my colleagues (who are working in games and are trans, so i'll go ahead and trust them on this) the problem isn't just "trans representation is limited and often involves misery". Its that nobody can think of a trans character who's not got "trans misery" written into their character arc. To writers, being trans is suffering. That is the problem.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 17:08
|
|
|
In general I have a lot more sympathy for stories about LGBT suffering if they explore actual difficulties people face or examine society's attitudes. As opposed to eg a story where the cult the writers made up wants to use a trans man as a breeder slave.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 17:09
|
|
|
dogstile posted:From the conversation I had today with my colleagues (who are working in games and are trans, so i'll go ahead and trust them on this) the problem isn't just "trans representation is limited and often involves misery". Its that nobody can think of a trans character who's not got "trans misery" written into their character arc. To writers, being trans is suffering. That is the problem. An issue I had with this in a similar vein was, I saw a Korra comic in which she's with her girlfriend at her parents place, and her parents are like "You know Korra, you should keep your relationship secret, our culture isn't very open and accepting of LGBT relationships." (Obviously paraphrased) and all I could think of is "Why the gently caress would you write that bigotry into this world? You have a world you've created, all the bigotry that exists within it, exist because you have decided upon it. There is no reason for these cultures to hold these values or mindsets, beyond you lacking the creativity to not go to the overdrawn well. At least, that's my issue. It's not that there's suffering or problems, it's that it's the same suffering and problems every time.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 17:17
|
|
|
Does anyone think the narrative would've worked better if we had switched between Ellie and Abby more often? Maybe at the end of each day or, even, at dramatic moments? It would've felt more episodic but I also think it would've helped stopped the early Abby moments from feeling like such a massive pause in the narrative.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 17:24
|
|
|
precision posted:I would honestly just like to know what people want. brokeback mountain was 15 years ago. things were incredibly different back then, in terms of what people expected and wanted. and, yeah. my issue isnt that trans suffering is in the story, its that its the msot shock value surface level thing. its just violence but with a biologically female edge, directed at a transman. its like if mortal kombat had a trans character and all the fatalities involved misgendering them while their spine got pulled out. theres no meat on them bones. theres no real understanding of what transmen actually face internally Endorph fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Jul 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 17:38
|
|
|
I don't recall Krem in Dragon Age having any trans- related misery
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 18:16
|
|
|
Endorph posted:brokeback mountain was 15 years ago. things were incredibly different back then, in terms of what people expected and wanted.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 19:21
|
|
|
acems posted:poorly explored bigotry. Are you aware that this is an opinion, not a fact?
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 19:31
|
|
|
Honestly, as I was playing Lev's story mainly felt pretty understated to me, I don't really understand the accusations that it's just for woke cred or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 19:38
|
|
|
precision posted:I would honestly just like to know what people want. It's pretty simple buddy. They just want a story where they get to have the same triumphs and successes that gay and straight people get. Dina and Ellie are both queer and the most that gets diminished is one guy in Jackson being a prick and Joel thinking Ellie had a crush on Jesse. There's no anxiety inducing scene of her coming out to people and some of them pulling guns on her or demanding she be thrown out, we get one bigot and Joel whiffs a guess and that's all we've got. The biggest win Lev gets is surviving. Abby and him fight off those Stalkers, Abby goes and gets medicine so Yara survives having her arm amputated and they manage to survive the Pillars and that's it. This next point is not specifically directed at you, precision, but just in general. It's kind of a 'speaking to an audience using 'you' situation. You want a gayer game? Try a game made by a gay person about being gay, it'll probably hollow your eyes out with its sheer gay radiation. RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jul 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:29
|
|
|
gaydiation
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:30
|
|
|
RareAcumen posted:It's pretty simple buddy. "They"? I'm pansexual and extremely nonbinary.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:39
|
|
|
Really hoping for TLOU3 focusing on Abby/Lev being BFFs. Finally finished the game last night. Holy gently caress 60 cutscenes? I ended up skipping about 20 of them. The farm almost made me quit after I had a sheep glitch and disappear so I had to reload the checkpoint and start again. I almost thought that was the end of the game for a while till I checked a walkthrough. Fantastic fun in terms of the shooting and sneaking and looting and crafting. Story was whatever. Could have been way shorter and still impactful. Ellie right lost a lot of her charm by being a true ungrowing rear end in a top hat (till the loving exact last second). I wish I could have let Abby kill her. I could have really done with less pregnant people being killed though. Jesus. johncandy fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jul 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:40
|
|
|
"Buddy"
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:40
|
|
|
precision posted:"They"? I'm pansexual and extremely nonbinary. This and trans isn't the same thing though? E: Is this a tropic thunder joke i'm missing?
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:49
|
|
|
precision posted:"They"? I'm pansexual and extremely nonbinary. The people you're disagreeing with are the 'they' in this statement. edit: Also Krem is fine but he's a supporting character to a party member (not even a party member) and when he hints that he's trans your dialogue options are like 1. What does that mean??? 2. I don't understand. 3. *home improvement confused grunt* It's a minor thing but it signals super hard that the character wasn't written with trans people in mind. If it was there'd be an option to go 'say no more,' or even 'hell yeah, me too, up high buddy.' ' Endorph fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jul 14, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 21:55
|
|
|
precision posted:"They"? I'm pansexual and extremely nonbinary. precision posted:"Buddy" no one is aggressing you as hard as you think they are, take a step back
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 22:03
|
|
|
The Last of Us Part II is a pretty good game about the inescapable humanity in all of us and how trying to find purpose in your life can lead to a deeper void when you fail to find it. I think it wants to push the genre beyond just being a murdering game, but ultimately fails to be brave enough to actually do that. I think my heart of hearts was hoping for a game that really expanded on Left Behind. The game has moments of that, but it always feels roped off in their own little sub-section. But I will say as a non-binary, gay ladyish person... I don't really get it. Like I think TLoU II is a fun failure in a lot ways, but I did loving enjoy getting to be a badass gay lady smoking fools with their cool Jewish girlfriend and then playing as other badass lady and her little trans best buddy. And like... it's okay to not like a game and I don't think the game should be immune from criticism. But I feel like people struggle to hold simultaneous thoughts in their head. Like the game can also be framing the trans experience as only one of being a discriminated outsider and it can still be exciting to see a game about a badass woman obviously having her own struggles with gender norms (Something the game deals with more subtlety) saving a badass trans kid.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 22:18
|
|
|
Right, a game with writing of this depth can be and mean many things to different people.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 22:27
|
|
|
Ive played and seen other stuff that had way more to do with the gay ans trans experience, so I don't have any real excitement about that. If you only play more mainstream aaa games, I can get it feeling more exciting. But people who disagree with you aren't 'struggling to hold two contradictory thoughts.' They just... disagree. With you. Art about these things is never objective, not even the most perfect nuanced stuff made by actual lgbt people.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 22:29
|
|
|
johncandy posted:Holy gently caress 60 cutscenes? I ended up skipping about 20 of them. johncandy posted:Story was whatever. I'm not going to look up if there's an SA smiley for "hmm, that's a headscratcher", just imagine I put it here. Twice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 22:49
|
|
|
Just use 
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 23:25
|
|
|
dogstile posted:Just use Surely  is better?
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2020 23:52
|
|
|
johncandy posted:Holy gently caress 60 cutscenes? I ended up skipping about 20 of them. johncandy posted:I could have really done with less pregnant people being killed though. Jesus. Shoulda made it 21 lol
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 00:03
|
|
|
Endorph posted:Ive played and seen other stuff that had way more to do with the gay ans trans experience, so I don't have any real excitement about that. If you only play more mainstream aaa games, I can get it feeling more exciting. But people who disagree with you aren't 'struggling to hold two contradictory thoughts.' --There is something to seeing representation in trashy genre fiction. The show Supergirl having a trans character in it does not make it the epitome of trans representation, but it doesn't mean it's not good to have. --There is something to the fidelity of seeing the characters on the screen who feel like living breathing people as opposed to Gone Home that tells its story through more environmental storytelling. --There is something to seeing this in a bigger game that reaches the wider zeitgeist.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 00:15
|
|
|
Hobo posted:Surely I think i did both reading their post so go for it lol
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 00:36
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:Yeah I have too but: 2) I mean, depends what you mean by 'real people' 3) I think there's games as big that have done it better, though their markets are bigger. I'm not saying people can't get anything out of it just that I don't think it deserves praise like its gone above and beyond.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 02:10
|
|
|
Ok but compared to literally every other AAA game I have ever played it actually DOES go above and beyond in terms of LGBT representation
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 03:36
|
|
|
The world of TLOU is so diverse (thanks to the progressive writers) that during the Ellie parts of the game you undoubtedly kill at least a dozen LGBT enemies, so think about that, you bigots
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 04:09
|
|
|
Endorph posted:1) I think there's trashy genre fiction thats done it better I'm an idiot and also convinced that every post I make on here makes me sound like an as whole. Just gonna lead right with that. That said, could you list some good games? Off the top of my head I can only think of Night in the Woods but I know there's got to be tons more that I'm blanking on right now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 04:20
|
|
|
The thing about trans things in games and things about representation in general is that we simply need a lot more stories or media pertaining to them, that way there is a good mix of media good or bad. But it's awful to have media that is pretty much all negative about a minority. Like, I know Druckmann says he is all for representation, but after what he did with one of the few minority characters that wasn't an outright villain in the Uncharted series, I take whatever he says with a grain of salt. Also, I think people need to be careful about simply saying LBGT representation, because there are specific discriminations that come even from inside that community.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 04:23
|
|
|
Granblue Fantasy is a japanese phone game so its obviously in a different space but in terms of prominence and amount of money it brings in its about TLOU2's equal, even if obviously moreso in Japan versus America. It has a scene in which two trans characters, Cagliostro and Ladiva, talk. Cagliostro is an alchemist who has used magic to give herself her ideal female body. She asks Ladiva, who is big, muscular, and has a beard, if she'd like her to do this for her as well, for rather obvious reasons. Ladiva appreciates the offer but refuses, saying that she's learned to love her body and that she wouldn't want to turn her back on how she's lived her life up to now. Cagliostro doesn't quite get it, but respects her decision. I'm not gonna say it's the most stunning representation ever, I can name five complaints off the top of my head (Some people would take an issue with Ladiva's character design even if she's never misgendered, when both characters were introduced they were played more for laughs and had to be walked back to this point, though they were never outright hateful with them or anything, the fantasy metaphor for surgery doesn't quite work, due to the nature of 'japanese phone gacha game' they both ultimately don't get that much screentime, even if both are more prominent and popular than most of the cast, Ladiva is voiced by a cis man in both Japanese and in the dub of the GranBlue fighting game, it's ultimately a side conversation in a storyline mostly unrelated to them) but, at least IMO, it is absurdly more interesting than anything TLOU2 goes for. I just want trans characters who like, talk about poo poo, and have conversations, and opinions on their own gender identity that I can reasonably follow and gain insight into their character from. That's what I'm looking for.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 04:40
|
|
|
Endorph posted:I just want trans characters who like, talk about poo poo, and have conversations, and opinions on their own gender identity that I can reasonably follow and gain insight into their character from. That's what I'm looking for. 1 Apart from the fact that hate will eat you alive, revenge is ultimately destructive, violence is rarely the answer, and do some sort of loving recon when you're going to take revenge on someone because otherwise you might end up killing 100+ unrelated people and therefore undermine the moral structure of your entire endeavour.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 16:41
|
|
|
Nobody could've known that Joel was the only thing keeping two Genocide runs from being started on the WLF.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 20:42
|
|
|
I’m surprised Ellie was willing to forgive Joel for murdering her adoptive mom, she didn’t even enquire about her.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 21:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 18:12 |
|
|
Sassy Sasquatch posted:I’m surprised Ellie was willing to forgive Joel for murdering her adoptive mom, she didn’t even enquire about her. It's been a while but I... don't remember a lot of affection between the two? It felt a lot like a package being handed off.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 23:18
|
|
