|
Lara is fine, her character arc has been honestly really well done throughout the series. I think the events of Cold Days have probably convinced her that generally speaking, Harry isn't in this to increase his power or position. Also her getting burned by Harry and telling him congrats was sweet. The real question for me is, why did she bargain with Mab for Harry's services? It's not like she needed a Winter Knight bodyguard for the talks and Thomas hadn't killed Austri yet so....why?
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 18:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 00:03 |
|
|
I think the most likely character to be under Lara's influence or potentially betray Harry is Ramirez. He had some sort of weird injury flare up he didn't want to talk about the night after the introductory party scene where everyone was mingling. Notably Lara had apparently been feeding that night after Harry broke off from the party crew. Might not be Lara but I think Ramirez is compromised.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
Grimson posted:I think the most likely character to be under Lara's influence or potentially betray Harry is Sure, if you completely ignore what happened the first time Ramirez met Lara and how he stopped her from feeding on him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
Grimson posted:I think the most likely character to be under Lara's influence or potentially betray Harry is That's another short story thing. Ramirez and Molly try to hook up, but since Molly is the Maiden in the Mother/Crone trio her mantle is hardwired to preserve that maidenhood - so as they are about to boink it makes her go berserk and beat Ramirez to a pulp.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 18:28
|
|
|
I vaguely remember (maybe from Skin Game?) that the Denarians were kicked out of the Accords for attacking Mab's Knight.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 18:29
|
|
|
Illuyankas posted:I vaguely remember (maybe from Skin Game?) that the Denarians were kicked out of the Accords for attacking Mab's Knight. They're kicked out for kidnapping Ivy in an attempt to get her to take a coin. The whole reason they had access to her is that they engineered a dispute that required an arbiter via the accords, and then violated the accords to harm her. It's the same book that Michael gets hurt.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 18:34
|
|
|
Illuyankas posted:I vaguely remember (maybe from Skin Game?) that the Denarians were kicked out of the Accords for attacking Mab's Knight. They violated the Accords by kidnapping The Archive and trying to destroy her/suborn her to their cause.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:07
|
|
|
30 TO 50 FERAL HOG posted:Lara is fine, her character arc has been honestly really well done throughout the series. I think the events of Cold Days have probably convinced her that generally speaking, Harry isn't in this to increase his power or position. It was pretty clear from their conversation at the end on the island that Lara *wasn't* convinced of this and didn't really even understand the concept that he might not be playing some kind of 11-dimensional chess with her until he spelled it out for her very explicitly (and even then he had to allow that maybe he was subconsciously setting up an insurance policy for himself). quote:
I don't think she originally set out to get Mab to owe her favors specifically for this scenario, she just did something ("sorting out visas" is how they referred to it, is this another short story thing?) and held onto the favors for a rainy day. The timing of Lara and Mab appearing in Harry's car, apparently either when Thomas's assault on Fort Svartalf was going down or just after, can't be a coincidence. My (unconfirmed) guess is that it went down something like: * Thomas attacks the svartalves, gets caught * Lara hears about it either because Etri called her up all WHAT THE gently caress or some other way * Lara thinks very fast about who would be in the best position to help Thomas, and figures out the best way to make sure Harry cooperates is to call in the favors Mab owes her (proving, again, that she doesn't really understand him because of course Harry would have helped just because it was Thomas.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:08
|
|
|
Sorting out visas was getting everyone to Chichen Itza in Changes.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:23
|
|
|
What all are the artifacts Harry has access to?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:27
|
|
|
odinson posted:What all are the artifacts Harry has access to? Stuff he got in skin game. The real shroud of turin, the crown of thorns, some kind of placard and a knife (possibly part of the spear of Longinus?).
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:33
|
|
|
odinson posted:What all are the artifacts Harry has access to? The two Harry requested from Alfred that they stole from Hades' vault? the Placard is the one that hung around Jesus' neck during the crucifixion and the way the Athame is heavily implied to be either the head from the Spear of Destiny (the one that pierced Jesus during the crucifixion) or possibly the 'first blade' that Cain killed Able with but since everything else was explicitly Jesus related its probably the Spear of Destiny. The ones he didn't request were the shroud of Turin and the Crown of Thorns Jesus wore during the crucifixion
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:37
|
|
|
Avalerion posted:Stuff he got in skin game. The real shroud of turin, the crown of thorns, some kind of placard and a knife. Ah, I actually remember this correctly; the placard is the sign above Jesus on the cross E: spoke too soon haha
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:37
|
|
|
Avalerion posted:Stuff he got in skin game. The real shroud of turin, the crown of thorns, some kind of placard and a knife (possibly part of the spear of Longinus?). The placard is the one put over Jesus's head reading "King of the Jews", and the dagger is the spearhead of Longinus, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:38
|
|
|
Avalerion posted:Stuff he got in skin game. The real shroud of turin, the crown of thorns, some kind of placard and a knife (possibly part of the spear of Longinus?). These are old so no need to spoiler. But the placard is almost certainly the 10 commandments Old Kentucky Shark posted:The placard is the one put over Jesus's head reading "King of the Jews", and the dagger is the spearhead of Longinus, yeah. Oh, or this 30 TO 50 FERAL HOG fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jul 15, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 19:44
|
|
|
30 TO 50 FERAL HOG posted:These are old so no need to spoiler. But the placard is almost certainly the 10 commandments No the decalogue was on 2 stone tablets, this is a wooden plaque. Its the INRI plaque, latin abbreviation for “jesus of nazareth king of jews”. It like all the others are historical relics related to Jesus’ death.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 21:37
|
|
|
Judging by the cover art of Battle Ground, Dresden is totally putting the spearhead on his staff. That's exciting
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 21:43
|
|
|
Subvisual Haze posted:No the decalogue was on 2 stone tablets, this is a wooden plaque. Its the INRI plaque, latin abbreviation for “jesus of nazareth king of jews”. It like all the others are historical relics related to Jesus’ death. That makes sense. One of the top DresdenFiles subreddit posts right now is a pretty scathing reaction to the book. As I've had time to think on it since last night my opinion is turning more negative as well. Really no reason to not publish this as one book but honestly the writing in general is not good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 21:50
|
|
|
It does seem to get worse the more you think about it. The primary conflict is resolved by Harry and Lara stepping out a side door, taking a shortcut leading them directly to their destination, disabling a single guard, then finding Thomas in a barred but unlocked cell. They then drink a potion and walk out the front door
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 21:59
|
|
|
abed
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:06
|
|
|
30 TO 50 FERAL HOG posted:That makes sense. I probably would share this reaction if I was super hyped for the book, rather than being cautiously optimistic and tempering my excitement over the series after years of arguing about it in this thread. So thanks goons for properly adjusting my expectations.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:13
|
|
|
Almost like someone set it up so that he’d be easy to break out. Someone that may want a favor from Harry soon.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:16
|
|
|
The whole "Marcone isn't actually that bad a guy, ya'll" side-plot is loving played out.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:18
|
|
|
If he combined the books it’d be his longest book yet by over 200 pages. I can see why a publisher would want to split that up. He even said he wanted them to come out back to back within a week or two but the publisher made him wait 10 weeks. Sanderson publishes gigantic books but he’s in a different genre with buyers that have different expectations on length. Most Urban Fantasy falls into that 350-500 page length so dropping an 800+ page tome wouldn’t work for his audience. And we are not the target audience, I can guarantee you that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
But he didn't, so it's a really short book.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:22
|
|
|
wallaka posted:He can’t be, at least now that he and Murphy are in love. Influence doesn't have to be magical/supernatural. Hell, General Gentleman Johnny Marcone was influencing the gently caress out of the Accord signatories and basically taking charge of the defense of Chicago. Lara and Harry share a brother, allies and enemies. It's completely reasonable that they can influence/persuade/manipulate each other through those relationships, no Sex Powerz or Mind Control required. Everyone fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jul 15, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:27
|
|
|
That’s a perfectly reasonable and valid excuse for two books. But ultimately it seems like we got all the setup and a lot of filler here with the bulk of the “real” book being Battle Ground. He should have taken a bit more time and done a few more drafts after the split. I’m guessing all the last minute padding to make “4:3rds of a book” two separate books is the stuff that stinks in this one. Maybe in a year we will get a reissue where they’re combined and the errors fixed. Like that horrendous mass effect novel.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:31
|
|
|
Also, regarding the artifacts: Harry did not get the Shroud of Turin, Nicodemus did as per his agreement with Mab. As I recall, there were five artifacts: The Shroud; The Placard; The Crown of Thorns; the knife/Spear of Destiny and the cup, which is almost certainly the Holy Grail.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:37
|
|
|
Everyone posted:Also, regarding the artifacts: Harry did not get the Shroud of Turin, Nicodemus did as per his agreement with Mab. As I recall, there were five artifacts: The Shroud; The Placard; The Crown of Thorns; the knife/Spear of Destiny and the cup, which is almost certainly the Holy Grail. No need to spoiler a 6 year old book. Also. You got it wrong. Nic gets the cup. Harry gets the rest.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 22:51
|
|
|
About Butter’s Sword: Did anyone else think the lightsaber/conservation of energy scene was to setup Butters as the only being that can pierce the titan’s armor? I loved the Sansa loses a hand gag as much as anyone (and it does reinforce that this book is Empire), but why else do it?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 23:07
|
|
|
Daric posted:If he combined the books it’d be his longest book yet by over 200 pages. I can see why a publisher would want to split that up. He even said he wanted them to come out back to back within a week or two but the publisher made him wait 10 weeks. Yeah, that's pretty much my opinion as well. Subvisual Haze posted:It does seem to get worse the more you think about it. The primary conflict is resolved by Harry and Lara stepping out a side door, taking a shortcut leading them directly to their destination, disabling a single guard, then finding Thomas in a barred but unlocked cell. They then drink a potion and walk out the front door I sorta liked Harry finally getting to carry out one of his plans exactly like he planned. Simple prisoner extraction with no real complications because they're all fairly competent at their jobs. That aside, I also liked the part where the four Wardens stopped Harry's car and they had their little showdown. I'm so used to seeing Harry as the underdog that it was nice to see how nervous the other Wardens were when they were confronting him. Overall it was fairly weak, but I still liked it. I think I'd have liked it significantly less if I didn't have Battle Ground coming in ~2 months.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 23:09
|
|
|
The one, single thing that really bothered me the most about the entire novel isn't just the typical cheesecake male gaze poo poo. It's not the plot that just feels "close enough" (and ends by escalating the stakes of the conflict with a paradigm shifting threat that has zero build up). Or even the fact that the Fomor have literally become the same threat the red court represented except without the attachment to the rest of the supernatural world that made the red court feel like they were transgressing on protocols to achieve their mysterious goal. There were actually a lot of parts at the castle that I enjoyed, and it very much reminded me of Grave Peril. Probably on purpose. I almost always like Butcher's politicking and world-building, even if action is really what he's good at. What bugs me is the undercurrent of a teenage worldview. The scene that opens up in Butters house is just awful. The unnecessary focus on how hot Andi is, the unnecessary mention that the other werewolf is also insanely hot, the threesome or poly or whatever. It's horrible. It's like a video game level of "now that you're a real man, women will literally throw themselves at you in piles." I gasped out loud when I read that scene. It is so offensively bad to me. I won't pretend that it's the worst or most tonedeaf scene Butcher's written. It's not even the most problematic one. It's almost typical for him but it's taken so far now. This wish fulfillment stuff is just godawful. A little scene like that is actually the worst part about the whole novel..
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 23:15
|
|
|
Subvisual Haze posted:It does seem to get worse the more you think about it. The primary conflict is resolved by Harry and Lara stepping out a side door, taking a shortcut leading them directly to their destination, disabling a single guard, then finding Thomas in a barred but unlocked cell. They then drink a potion and walk out the front door The whole thing is probably going to be revealed as some kind of 12th dimensional chess by somebody.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 23:22
|
|
|
Khizan posted:That aside, I also liked the part where the four Wardens stopped Harry's car and they had their little showdown. I'm so used to seeing Harry as the underdog that it was nice to see how nervous the other Wardens were when they were confronting him. This scene actually made me angry. Yoshiko goes "You've had sex recently!" and Harry gets irrationally angry at the four giving the guy who just left Lara freaking Raith's house a funny look. When the appropriate response is Harry giving Ramirez a smug look and saying "Yeah, I had some fun with  MY GIRLFRIEND earlier, btw Karrin says hi."
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 23:25
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:The Knights have no reason to sign any treaties. They follow one Law only. It actually does not prohibit swearing oaths, it's just against swearing oaths and then breaking them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 23:50
|
|
|
AppropriateUser posted:The whole thing is probably going to be revealed as some kind of 12th dimensional chess by somebody. Sure, and I'm fine with that. The problem is that this story has nothing else holding it up. All the other plot hooks are unresolved by the end. The main conflict with Thomas resolving itself in a quick fashion with a minimal planning or unexpected complications heist just adds to this story feeling like a book that they split into 2 books purely to maximize revenue. Up Circle posted:The one, single thing that really bothered me the most about the entire novel isn't just the typical cheesecake male gaze poo poo. It's not the plot that just feels "close enough" (and ends by escalating the stakes of the conflict with a paradigm shifting threat that has zero build up). Or even the fact that the Fomor have literally become the same threat the red court represented except without the attachment to the rest of the supernatural world that made the red court feel like they were transgressing on protocols to achieve their mysterious goal. There were actually a lot of parts at the castle that I enjoyed, and it very much reminded me of Grave Peril. Probably on purpose. I almost always like Butcher's politicking and world-building, even if action is really what he's good at. At this point I'm seriously wondering if Butcher isn't just trolling the audience with Butters as a character. The quirky middle-aged balding guy who everyone liked because he showed real courage overcoming his cowardice and weakness to help his friend is pure author wish fufilment character now. He became Batman wielding a lightsaber, holy knight, owner of Bob the Skull, and banging the young hot werewolf lady. In this book he adds another attractive lady to his harem, and loving Michael gives a speech to Harry about what a good and faithful person Butters is (in the context that Butters is emulating Harry, but it's still nauseating).
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2020 23:58
|
|
|
Kchama posted:It actually does not prohibit swearing oaths, it's just against swearing oaths and then breaking them. Depends. The direct text of the Bible forbids all oaths period, but the general theological interpretation based on the religious debates of the time is that Jesus meant to forbid false or frivolous oaths.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 00:00
|
|
|
Subvisual Haze posted:
Originally he planned to kill off Butters in Book 6 but he decided he liked the character too much. I think it's a kind of fanservice. He makes Harry's life horrible but he makes Butter's life pretty great.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 00:02
|
|
|
rndmnmbr posted:This scene actually made me angry. Yoshiko goes "You've had sex recently!" and Harry gets irrationally angry at the four giving the guy who just left Lara freaking Raith's house a funny look. When the appropriate response is Harry giving Ramirez a smug look and saying "Yeah, I had some fun with What bothered me is how everyone involved seemed to have forgotten about it entirely by the next day. There's zero tension between any of the wardens at the party. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Originally he planned to kill off Butters in Book 6 but he decided he liked the character too much. I think it's a kind of fanservice. He makes Harry's life horrible but he makes Butter's life pretty great. I think I've said this before but not every character has to be a superhero. Butters was already perfectly compelling as a dweebish guy learning to be courageous in the face of supernatural horror, and among other things, learning to stand up for himself, even to Dresden when it was needed. He provided invaluable support and wasn't just another boring hyper-competent badass.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 00:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 00:03 |
|
|
w/r/t the 2 books thing it HAS to be the length. Charlie Stross had a blog post up some time ago talking about how his original pitch for the merchant princes would have been a Sanderson sized trilogy and his publisher told him that he was in the wrong genre / not established enough to be able to do that given the extra expenses that long books have.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 00:55
|
|
