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Blut posted:When it was previously in use as a mosque they covered up a lot of the historical Christian aspects of the interior - frescoes etc. Its pretty likely they'll do the same again now. So it'll be quite a different/less full aesthetic experience at the very least. https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/christian-icons-in-the-hagia-sophia-will-be-covered-using-optical-technology-hurriyet/ sounds like they'll just darken them during services
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Jul 12, 2020 13:34
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Threadkiller Dog posted:So it would feel hosed up to deny them their big building heritage just because they are muslim now. I'd like to know why exactly a museum "denies people their heritage".
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Jul 12, 2020 14:29
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Cat Mattress posted:I'd like to know why exactly a museum "denies people their heritage". Mosque ok, museum better. I guess it bothers me when its called a "western" or [modern] greek building when many of the people who can lay direct claim to its original heritage actually live in turkey as muslims today. Part of that may be that the turks dont really parade their greek/roman/christian heritage either (or do they?) but who knows in another 500 years they're hopeful all beyond this poo poo. But disuse, ruins or a musuem seems to be the natural end state of any religious building given enough time so its of course concerning when things go the opposite way. Threadkiller Dog fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jul 12, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 15:03
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Zedhe Khoja posted:Broadly yes. More a matter of degrees than anything. And most of the post conquest population of Istanbul itself was probably of Balkan ancestry. On their initial tear through the Balkans official policy was to cart off a quarter of the population of conquered cities to Istanbul. Partially as slaves, partially as free (or as free as you could be in the historical circumstances) men because Constantinople had been at sub 50k before it had been stormed and ravaged by an invading army. keep in mind there was a massive population transfer, Greeks from Anatolia to Greece and Turks from Thrace to Turkey, after 1922-23.
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Jul 12, 2020 16:13
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Spacewolf posted:keep in mind there was a massive population transfer, Greeks from Anatolia to Greece and Turks from Thrace to Turkey, after 1922-23. And more than that, remember that there used to be a thriving Greek community in Istanbul that was forced to move to Greece through a combination of a nasty pogrom in 1955 and deportation orders in 1964. This latest stunt is less about Turks reclaiming their heritage and more about removing the last traces of a despised minority population and declaring victory over them.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:21
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OhFunny posted:I know this a joke post, but the answer is because he's appealing to pan-Turkism and not pan-Islamism. No it's Pan-Islamism, the westernmost outpost was Iberia.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:36
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Threadkiller Dog posted:Mosque ok, museum better. I guess it bothers me when its called a "western" or [modern] greek building Greek only = Western in stupid stuffy old books written by Philhellenes. And whenever convenient for alt-right clash of civs types whove never been to Greece and would probably find it too brown and ethnic for their tastes. Spacewolf posted:keep in mind there was a massive population transfer, Greeks from Anatolia to Greece and Turks from Thrace to Turkey, after 1922-23. Which aside from the surface level nastiness, also played a major role in washing over ethnic gray areas. Because you had some degree of ethnic Greeks who were Muslim, and ethnic Turks who were Orthodox. And all the deportations cared about was religion. So Greek speaking Muslims for instance were sent to Turkey as "Turks". There had been a whole bunch of them living on Crete, but not anymore. Lots of this stuff wasn't so set in stone until modern nationalism came through and forced boxes around everything. Grape fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jul 12, 2020 |
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Jul 12, 2020 21:35
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Threadkiller Dog posted:I guess it bothers me when its called a "western" or [modern] greek building when many of the people who can lay direct claim to its original heritage actually live in turkey as muslims today It's called a Greek building because it was literally built by Greeks. Same reason the Pyramids aren't called Arab or the Mesa Verde site isn't called an American village.
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Jul 12, 2020 21:38
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A good example from the other side is the Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba. There's been a campaign for decades to allow Muslims to pray there. Probably never going to happen now Edit: Also the Parthenon went through a transition from being a Greek Temple, to Orthodox Church, to Mosque, to finally a Cultural site.
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Jul 12, 2020 21:49
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ToxicAcne posted:A good example from the other side is the Mosque-Cathedral of Cordoba. There's been a campaign for decades to allow Muslims to pray there. Probably never going to happen now Also an ammunition storage garage at one point lol.
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Jul 12, 2020 22:16
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I don’t know if you guys caught this, but a gigantic deal is being inked out between china and Iran that will basically give Iran a permanent economic lifeline in exchange for being and Economic/Military Protectorate of China. https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1282077216248074245?s=21
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Jul 13, 2020 04:36
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I was so hopeful for the future relationship between our countries when Obama inked the Iran deal 
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Jul 13, 2020 04:37
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How are u posted:I was so hopeful for the future relationship between our countries when Obama inked the Iran deal well, yeah, but how would we have gotten sanctions on Russia past Trump if we didn't call for more sanctions on Iran hold on, I'm getting a buzzing noise in my ear
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Jul 13, 2020 05:46
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Grape posted:Also an ammunition storage garage at one point lol. Which was exploded by a lucky Venetian mortar shot when they besieged Athens during the Sixth Ottoman-Venetian War, which is why it no longer has a roof. 
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Jul 13, 2020 07:58
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Al-Saqr posted:I don’t know if you guys caught this, but a gigantic deal is being inked out between china and Iran that will basically give Iran a permanent economic lifeline in exchange for being and Economic/Military Protectorate of China. Who could have predicted that forbidding western countries to trade with Iran would result in Iran trading with China? Who could have predicted that starting a trade war with China would result in China deciding to ignore America's blockade against Iran? I mean, the European Union is also targeted by an American trade war, but they're still obedient vassals nevertheless who have stopped all trade with Iran to avoid being subject to the economic sanctions they are subject to anyway. Who could have guessed that China would have more spine and be more assertive and independent than America's neocolonial subjects?
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Jul 13, 2020 09:35
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Cat Mattress posted:I mean, the European Union is also targeted by an American trade war, but they're still obedient vassals nevertheless who have stopped all trade with Iran to avoid being subject to the economic sanctions they are subject to anyway. Who could have guessed that China would have more spine and be more assertive and independent than America's neocolonial subjects? I know you’re being a bit facetious here, but do you think the EU and its members have realistic choices besides waiting until this administration is gone? Is China supporting Iran even news worthy? It’s not like they signed a mutual defense pact or anything. I still doubt China would do anything but token support if a shooting war between the US and Iran broke out.
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Jul 13, 2020 10:10
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ganglysumbia posted:I know you’re being a bit facetious here, but do you think the EU and its members have realistic choices besides waiting until this administration is gone? it's 500 billion dollars of investments, a 25 year guarantee that china will prop up Iran Economically, a monopoly on telecomunication, transportation, and oil/gas plant building projects, naval shipyards, etc. and includes putting Chinese Troops in Iran to protect chinese economic interests, it's essentially turning Iran into China's Protectorate and Economic/Military foothold in the region in a very big way. it's absolutely newsworthy.
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Jul 13, 2020 11:00
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Al-Saqr posted:it's 500 billion dollars of investments, a 25 year guarantee that china will prop up Iran Economically, a monopoly on telecomunication, transportation, and oil/gas plant building projects, naval shipyards, etc. and includes putting Chinese Troops in Iran to protect chinese economic interests, it's essentially turning Iran into China's Protectorate and Economic/Military foothold in the region in a very big way. it's absolutely newsworthy. That's the part that's newsworthy. How many troops are we talking about?
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Jul 13, 2020 11:04
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Charlz Guybon posted:That's the part that's newsworthy. How many troops are we talking about? around 5000 according to the speculation.
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Jul 13, 2020 11:12
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ganglysumbia posted:I know you’re being a bit facetious here, but do you think the EU and its members have realistic choices besides waiting until this administration is gone? Putting automatic reciprocal sanctions against US companies whenever the US sanctions a EU company for a bullshit reason. Say Total kept working on that gas deal with Iran. US sanctions them with a huge fine. EU retaliates by sanctioning Exxon, Chevron, and Conoco for the same value. Waiting until this administration is gone is a stupid choice because why would anyone believe it'd be any different with the next? The US sanctioning European companies by pretending internal domestic US laws apply worldwide, is not a Trump innovation. It has happened repeatedly under Obama, and before him under Bush, and before him under Clinton... It will happen under Biden or whatever other monstrosity comes next in the White House. The only real difference is that Trump is vulgar about it. Obama screwed the EU over with a charming smile; Trump does it with slurred insults.
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Jul 13, 2020 12:50
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Al-Saqr posted:it's absolutely newsworthy. Was a poor choice of words on my part. I just don’t see how this effects or changes anything in the near future. China is using their Debt Diplomacy to gain advantage in those areas the US has neglected, avoided, or simply cannot project influence. It’s not like they have avoided trading and working with Iran before this, and it’s anyone’s guess that their investments will pay off and the groups they are dealing with will be around for that to even happen. I see it as folks in DC continuing to ring the alarm bells as the Chinese menace continues to expand its influence. Cat Mattress posted:Putting automatic reciprocal sanctions against US companies whenever the US sanctions a EU company for a bullshit reason. Of course it’s a lopsided relationship, the US holds most of the cards. The EU does a lot to restrict flow of US goods into its markets, as we have seen the Cheeto rail on about many times. And your average French or EU citizen cares little if at all if Total loses contracts in Iran, not to mention reciprocal actions against the firms you mentioned would not play out well considering the large presence they have within EU. No one except your fringe local nationalist politicians are openly or seriously considering trade war or belligerent stance with the States. What you see happening because of the current rhetoric coming out of DC is the US losing influence, and outside forces gladly willing to fill that void.
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Jul 13, 2020 18:05
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I think you're all overblowing a 16 billion a year of investments. Lets just look at the facts: 1. Sanctions The technology and oil deal was inevitable. All of Huawei's prospective competitors are gated out of Iran and with Huawei increasingly finding itself locked out of markets supporting the sanctions this was a natural win/win created by Trump. China gets discounted oil , Iran gets tech they can't get from anywhere else. 2. Investments Lets not overstate 16 billion dollars a year into an economy that before sanctions ran a GDP of around half a trillion. It's money, but it's not really a loan when it's getting paid for by an oil discount. 3. 5000 military personal Potentially a very big deal. China's ability to project naval and military power in the area isn't exactly stellar at the moment and who better to ask for help with that than the uncontested regional hegemon. However, it does not turn them into a protectorate of China, that is a laughable assertion. With India and Kazakhstan's deteriorating relations with China I think we're just going to see more and more of this. China needs all the regional allies it can find and where better to look than a nation arbitrarily screwed over by the US electing Trump and the EU being a dysfunctional mess.
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Jul 13, 2020 19:07
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why is Kazakhstan's relationship with China deteriorating? I'd have assumed they'd be on good terms with China thanks to belt and road investment stuff
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Jul 13, 2020 19:30
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Squalid posted:why is Kazakhstan's relationship with China deteriorating? I'd have assumed they'd be on good terms with China thanks to belt and road investment stuff That teensy tiny little genocide thing that China has been up to for the last few years is stirring feathers among the population.
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Jul 13, 2020 19:36
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ah. Makes sense. I imagine Uighurs are pretty close culturally to Kazakhs.
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Jul 13, 2020 19:46
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Squalid posted:ah. Makes sense. I imagine Uighurs are pretty close culturally to Kazakhs. Kazakhs make up almost 10% of the population of the antonymous region, which doesn't sound like a big number but they occupy a vast sqaths of actual territory. Historically Xinjiang was composed of 2 pieces, the area south of the Tian mountains which is the historic Uigur homeland centered around farming and oasis cities in the Tarim basin and the area north of the Tian Mountains which were populated by Kazakh herders and nomads. Since Uigurs largely live in cities like Kashgar that are almost entirely Uigur with relatively few Han, you're just as likely to run into a Kazakh in most mixed areas as you will a Uigur. The old joke was that the party secretary of Urumqi always kept both a Kazakh mistress and a Uigur mistress, for the sake of national unity. The Kazakhs don't really have any sort of nationalistic ambition since their numbers are too few and the area they inhabit is just grassland of little value, once horse archery wasn't a thing anymore they had no real conflict with the Han, and in any case it's easy for them to get Kazakh citizenship across the border if they want to be run over by Gwagens driven by oligarchs who also speak their language. Job opportunities are generally better on the Chinese side. The kazakh north is also where most of the actual military action in Xinjiang has been historically because it's where Chinese central asia runs into Russian central asia since the Qing/Tsar. The Uigurs for the most part have no allies across any border and are not a serious military threat to anyone with an air force. China has reasonably good relations with both Israel and the Gulf monarchies, but Israel probably understands their relationship with China is more of the "cash up front" type. The Pakistanis don't really have any real beef with Iran beyond what Saudi money will buy.
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Jul 13, 2020 20:34
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Al-Saqr posted:I don’t know if you guys caught this, but a gigantic deal is being inked out between china and Iran that will basically give Iran a permanent economic lifeline in exchange for being and Economic/Military Protectorate of China. Well I guess that means they won't need to roll out pretend fighter jets in an effort to "scare us" anymore. China has supplied the IRIAF on a limited basis before, mind.
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Jul 13, 2020 23:02
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Meanwhile in Libya, it Looks like haftar got hosed over by Putin, Wagner forces are withdrawing from sirte and Jufra meaning turkeys got the field to itself to wallop haftar:- https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1283116970238447616?s=21
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Jul 15, 2020 02:59
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i hate haftar so much. maybe MBS and Egypt are sick of his failures and are finally going to cut him loose. I feel like decentralization or federalization is the only way to Libya to pull itself together again. The last thing it needs is another strongman trying to repeat Gaddafi's mistakes.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:30
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Erdogan is really banking on making Libya into a client state if he backs the right horse huh.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:31
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Squalid posted:i hate haftar so much. maybe MBS and Egypt are sick of his failures and are finally going to cut him loose. Actually the UAE is fanatically trying to keep him afloat, egypt can’t really do anything about it because they’re a lovely army that can’t do anything other than kill protestors.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:32
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Grape posted:Erdogan is really banking on making Libya into a client state if he backs the right horse huh. Libya was a pawn regardless. Russia was simply the seller of last resort for Haftar. Money changed hands Russia closed it's books on the issue and handed themselves a Turkish victory. Remember the weakness of the world will be used against it at any time. So now we have a new coalition forming of powers. Lead by Turkey Russia Iran and China, And their neighbors. The long peace is behind us. Here's a quote from a fascist that I think once again warns us of what is to come Adolf Hitler: The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it.
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Jul 15, 2020 03:58
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Doubt Stalin needed Nazi Germany for an excuse to be a totalitarian. Now while I can imagine those group of countries would love to see US hegemony crumble, they don’t exactly have a long history of cooperation and peaceful coexistence. They have as much to worry about from each other as they do the West. The EU and its members are never going to allow dominance by Russia and Turkey, and in the East unless there are some drastic changes to the current status quo the US and its regional Allies will continue to try and keep China boxed in. With everything in the news (Hong Kong, Huawei, Chinese bullying the Aussies) there is definitely a lot of pushing going on in that regard. Hopefully nobody starts shoving.
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Jul 15, 2020 08:58
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ganglysumbia posted:The EU and its members are never going to allow lol Nobody needs the authorization of a bunch of spineless has-beens who have outsourced their muscle to America 70 years ago and are as a result incapable of agreeing on a common course of action or of acting alone.
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Jul 15, 2020 10:03
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Brown Moses posted:Russia has been up to no good again Catching up with the thread, but hasn't this been debunked? Ah here we are: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1233199
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Jul 15, 2020 10:13
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Lebanon appears to be seeking to follow Iran's example and reaching out to China, seeing as nobody else wants to lend them a hand.
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Jul 15, 2020 15:49
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Cat Mattress posted:lol They certainly have enough money to fund local enemies of a bunch of regimes. They don't run the planet like they did but they definitely are gonna hand in directing what a post American hegemonic world order looks like. Shageletic posted:Catching up with the thread, but hasn't this been debunked? I dunno, does "could not corroborate" mean debunked when the NSA says it? The Trump administration calling it a hoax certainly doesn't make me think it's debunked. Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 07:14
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Yeah it's a pretty massive exaggeration to say it was debunked.
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Jul 16, 2020 14:08
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Casus belli being lined up for Egypt to send forces into Libya. quote:Eastern Libya’s parliament passed a motion approving a possible military intervention by neighboring Egypt to stop an offensive by Libya’s Tripoli-based government in the west.
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Jul 16, 2020 17:33
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Sinteres posted:Yeah it's a pretty massive exaggeration to say it was debunked. it's also a massive exaggeration to say it was a credible accusation to begin with given its source
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Jul 16, 2020 17:59
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