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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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Herstory Begins Now posted:As far as I can tell, going off of electoral results, white male leftists are far less electable than their non-white dude counterparts. Other than white leftists, idk who is perceiving them as electable. Bernie is, afaik, really the only white guy far enough to the left to maybe be called a leftist who has achieved success at a national level (shoutout to lee carter, but we're talking national level, not state). Pretty much everyone else has been bipoc. I don't disagree! The issue is that people are more likely to come to such a conclusion with someone like Ilhan Omar than they are Bernie. That wasn't my main point, though; I was initially commenting more on what it means for a politician - like Duckworth in this case - to make such a comment. I have no idea if Duckworth would have made the same comment if AOC was a white man, but the main reason she made the comment is as a general "being left is a bad idea because it will make you lose elections" implication.
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Jul 15, 2020 18:41
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punishedkissinger posted:this was a direct response to Lin Yutang's claim [lie] that she barely won. Main Painframe is a giant loving baby and a bad mod. Mods are baby tyrants who need to feel some form of power in this most pathetic of arenas. Also they are mostly concealing underage sex crimes, lmao. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 15, 2020 19:31
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Ytlaya posted:I don't disagree! The issue is that people are more likely to come to such a conclusion with someone like Ilhan Omar than they are Bernie. That wasn't my main point, though; I was initially commenting more on what it means for a politician - like Duckworth in this case - to make such a comment. I have no idea if Duckworth would have made the same comment if AOC was a white man, but the main reason she made the comment is as a general "being left is a bad idea because it will make you lose elections" implication. as a disclaimer i don't post in here so I'm not familiar with the local dynamics or if lin is racist or not, I'm only trying to speak to this one specific bit It very much does not read to me as a dog whistley statement. I think there's a bit of confusion sometimes about the popularity of specific leftist policies (eg medicare for all, free higher education, racial and gender and sexuality equality, etc. and politically active leftism, as a whole. (I'm again using the DSA as leftist for this purposes because they're about as far as you can get to the left while still heavily engaging with the system intending to change it). Several leftist policies are very popular and definitely are electorally advantageous, especially in deep blue, urban, heavily gerrymandered districts, leftism as a whole is very much an electoral liability in most of the country. AOC could probably publicly renounce her affiliation with the far left while changing none of her policy positions and enjoy a generous bounce up in popularity (and as an aside, I'm really glad she doesn't because she's probably doing as much to drag american political discussion to the left as anyone currently). Like I'm definitely not going to say that being latina or black is going to help someone win some racist af rural ohio community over, but a lot more districts and precincts have voted for pocs than they have for leftists. The suggestion that Duckworth was emphasizing that leftism is going to be a liability in most districts I think holds water. And it definitely has nothing to do with real or less real midwest stuff, which is clearly a pointless distinction in elections where you have to win the entirety of a state.
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Jul 15, 2020 22:34
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Herstory Begins Now posted:as a disclaimer i don't post in here so I'm not familiar with the local dynamics or if lin is racist or not, I'm only trying to speak to this one specific bit quote:For example, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez had a -17 net favorability rating (30 percent approval rating minus a 47 percent disapproval rating) among registered voters after scoring just a -3 net favorability rating among registered voters in the Economist/YouGov poll. Rep. Ilhan Omar also had a -21 net favorability rating in the Emerson poll (-7 in the Economist/YouGov one). Rep. Rashida Tlaib had a -16 net favorability rating per Emerson and -5 per the Economist/YouGov. Finally, Rep. Ayanna Pressley, the least well-known of the four, had a -11 net favorability rating in the Emerson survey and a -4 net favorability rating in the Economist/YouGov one. For comparison Pete Buttigieg's favorability in February was net -14 points, and +34 among Democrats. https://texaspolitics.utexas.edu/set/pete-buttigieg-favorability-february-2020#party-id You'll note that this is comparable and yet for ~some reason~ the bougie white yuppie was portrayed as the candidate who could win the industrial Midwest (despite being the only one to have actually lost a statewide race there) 
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Jul 15, 2020 22:51
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yea pretty much, people like AOC and Omar, at worst (including DNC funded right wing biased polls, whoops) poll about the same as people like Mayor Pete, yet only one of those were billed as the savior of the democrats in Real America, and I think the two big reasons are pretty obvious
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Jul 15, 2020 22:56
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Democrats think that just because Republicans won't vote for a black woman, they also shouldn't. They are stuck in this mindset that they need republicans to win. They don't. Okay, there are some districts where they do, but they can't touch most of those districts because even if the Democrats put up a white man, the Republicans still won't switch. So they keep on doing racist poo poo and picking white dudes because they think it helps them bring over racist republicans. Outside of some edge cases, it doesn't. So they are just being racist out of their own cynicism without anything to show for it.
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Jul 15, 2020 23:31
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Klobuchar is another example of this: billed as the candidate who could win the "industrial Midwest", even though her only claim was winning Minnesota (a feat Hillary also accomplished, you might better remember her as the candidate who lost the industrial Midwest for the Democrats for the first time in 30 years), and of course we all know how Klob's candidacy turned out, a hilarious embarrassment so bad she had to drop out before the humiliation of losing her own state wrecked her career. She couldn't even win among midwestern Democrats, but where are the Duckworths of the world to say that Klobuchar can't talk to midwesterners VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jul 15, 2020 |
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Jul 15, 2020 23:36
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VitalSigns posted:Klobuchar is another example of this: billed as the candidate who could win the "industrial Midwest", even though her only claim was winning Minnesota (a feat Hillary also accomplished, you might better remember her as the candidate who lost the industrial Midwest for the Democrats for the first time in 30 years), and of course we all know how Klob's candidacy turned out, a hilarious embarrassment so bad she had to drop out before the humiliation of losing her own state wrecked her career. Minnesota always votes Blue. It's the safest state in the Union for Democrats.
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Jul 16, 2020 01:30
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Maybe it was not Duckworth's intention to use a racist dog whistle. Maybe she was just following the other dogwhistle, the one about the "heartland" being the "real America" without considering the racial implications of it. But it is not like the Bronx has any particular reputation as being socialist (in fact, at the time dems loved to say that Bernie appealed too much to the white working class). It does have a reputation of being majority minority. I mean, it is impossible to know what is one person's heart. But, in mid 2018, Duckworth picked AOC as her left example (as opposed to Bernie), described her specifically from the Bronx (as opposed to NYC or east coast) and used the weird "industrial" qualifier for the midwest.So maybe it wasn't her intention, maybe she was just doing the whole "Real America" thing that midwest politicians like to do (though that is also a dog whistle), or maybe it was a coincidence that mean nothing. But sheer bad luck or not, it replicated precisely the talking point that right wing politicians like to use in trying to treat majority minority areas as aberrations completely unlike the real America. This, of course, was the lesser thing that bugs me about her. Her wanting the corporate tax rate to be further cut to 15% as long as it includes small businesses as well is pretty damning.
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Jul 16, 2020 01:37
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If a politician brings up "the midwest" is is 99% of the time some form of dogwhistle.
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Jul 16, 2020 08:25
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:People have been predicting the fall of major parties for every election cycle since the beginning of the US. *Nods Whiggishly* Parties do change and they do collapse. The current coalition that props up the Republicans is extremely shaky because Evangelicals haven't gotten a culture war win in more than a decade at the national level and their reward for voting Trump was not what they were promised. If some of them skip an election or two that'll be the end of the Republicans.
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Jul 16, 2020 13:01
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If the Republicans did collapse, they'd basically just finish taking over the other conservative party.
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Jul 16, 2020 16:30
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The last democrat president was a Reagan republican, I'd say they've pretty much taken it over already. Every major leader is a conservative.
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Jul 16, 2020 16:33
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Terror Sweat posted:The last democrat president was a Reagan republican, I'd say they've pretty much taken it over already. Every major leader is a conservative. Pretty much. This works for them and is what they want, the drift rightward. They detest and want to crush the left. They’re so desperate when they say they want to reach out to Republicans is so they can get those sweet donor dollars and whatnot. It’s what they are and that’s also why a lot of them are weak sauce in fighting all this.
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Jul 16, 2020 16:37
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Relevant Tangent posted:*Nods Whiggishly* I dare say the dems are at greater risk of folding, if their attempts to ditch any kind of base that demands anything fails badly, leaving them with neither the minority vote or the Panera vote.
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Jul 16, 2020 16:58
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Jimbozig posted:Democrats think that just because Republicans won't vote for a black woman, they also shouldn't.
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Jul 16, 2020 17:45
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StratGoatCom posted:I dare say the dems are at greater risk of folding, if their attempts to ditch any kind of base that demands anything fails badly, leaving them with neither the minority vote or the Panera vote. The constant threat of the far-right (i.e GOP) is honestly enough to keep them around. If anything, it looks like Biden may win, because Trump had been so devastating to this country that there is no other choice to vote him out. The issue is that it also reinforces existing narratives in the Democratic party, which are also dangerous and dangerously obsolete. It isn't just about progressive policy either but that the US is going to in for a very difficult economic and fiscal picture for the next decade and there has to be relatively radical action to address that. That isn't even talking about climate change, race relations, or our health care system (etc). It is why it is easy to be very pessimistic even if the Democrats blow out the GOP, the damage has already been done.
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Jul 16, 2020 17:48
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Zerilan posted:If a politician brings up "the midwest" is is 99% of the time some form of dogwhistle. https://youtu.be/p9ZwpC5VSBw
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Jul 16, 2020 18:01
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Ardennes posted:The constant threat of the far-right (i.e GOP) is honestly enough to keep them around. If anything, it looks like Biden may win, because Trump had been so devastating to this country that there is no other choice to vote him out. I've been seeing some minority polling that suggests otherwise.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:09
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StratGoatCom posted:I've been seeing some minority polling that suggests otherwise. I was told by a senior democratic operative, who worked high up in obama's team, not to worry as the vp announcement will raise all of those numbers bigly.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:23
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StratGoatCom posted:I've been seeing some minority polling that suggests otherwise. Please share. Ardennes posted:The constant threat of the far-right (i.e GOP) is honestly enough to keep them around. If anything, it looks like Biden may win, because Trump had been so devastating to this country that there is no other choice to vote him out. There's a weird thing where people often treat our political system as though it was at some point better in the past and that the dems have been ruined compared to some noble state that they were in 20 or 30 or 40 years ago or something. They weren't and US politics as a whole weren't either. Trump is basically an artifact of 1980s/1990s american views on politics and race and policing and foreign policy (remember when 'we should take their oil' was literally american foreign policy conversation on the national level for both parties). While progress in the US is very slow because there's so much deliberate resistance to tearing down all the white christian male supremacy bullshit, that the gop is currently in profound crisis because that 1980s style of open bigotry and international dominionism just does not play the same way anymore. Basically the US has been so far right from its inception (as an explicitly apartheid slave state) that the political mainstream has always been far right. While the shift away from that has been slow (and remains wildly incomplete), pretty much everyone in office is to the left of what was mainstream 20-30 years ago. Specifically, Trump's bigoted af views were drat near mainstream (and were entirely mainstream behind closed doors) just a decade or two ago. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 18:29
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https://twitter.com/roadshow/status/1283401121994805248?s=20 Get your used cars before this fool gets a Congress.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:31
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Terror Sweat posted:The last democrat president was a Reagan republican, I'd say they've pretty much taken it over already. Every major leader is a conservative. Yeah, for the most part the Dems at this point are just the moderate wing of the Republican party.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:40
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Zerilan posted:Yeah, for the most part the Dems at this point are just the moderate wing of the Republican party. Most Democrats, Biden included, are further right than Nixon on nearly every single issue.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:43
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Nonsense posted:https://twitter.com/roadshow/status/1283401121994805248?s=20 the classic fixing the environment through regressive, bottom-up measures. why invest in public transit so the working poor can go to work without a car, when you could make them pay more for a newer model car by scooping out the used market!
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Jul 16, 2020 18:43
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Famethrowa posted:the classic fixing the environment through regressive, bottom-up measures. It is standard practice that every and all Democratic plans must necessarily transfer more wealth to the wealthy.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:46
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punishedkissinger posted:really balancing the ticket with two far right dems My understanding is that Duckworth was born in Thailand, I understand she is a citizen now but was she a citizen at birth? I know her dad was a Marine but not sure how that works out. I know McCain was covered because both his parents were American I believe? Little fuzzy on this.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:47
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Most Democrats, Biden included, are further right than Nixon on nearly every single issue. Can you make a list of all of these points that you're referring to.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:49
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Enigma89 posted:My understanding is that Duckworth was born in Thailand, I understand she is a citizen now but was she a citizen at birth? I know her dad was a Marine but not sure how that works out. I know McCain was covered because both his parents were American I believe? Tammy Duckworth's father was an American member of the military who was serving overseas. (Mother was Thai) She was a citizen at birth, and is just as eligible as Ted Cruz would have been. There is a fringe legal theory that a "natural born" citizen today requires physical birth within the United States, regardless of who your parents were. Not many people take this theory seriously, but in the rare times this came up, congress has passed something after nominations saying "yes you dumbasses, candidate (insert name here) is eligible to be president/VP if they win".
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Jul 16, 2020 18:56
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Can you make a list of all of these points that you're referring to. Off the top of my head: Nixon had a plan for UBI Nixon ended the forever war in Vietnam. Nixon founded the EPA Nixon was for a universal health plan that opened Medicare to be available to everyone. I’m sure there are more.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:57
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Off the top of my head: he also purposefully extended it through Kissinger so he could use it against LBJ and the Democrats. I don't think he wins points on this one. the others? yeah. he was farther to the left then modern democrats on a lot of those. Nixon was a study of contrasts, and was very similar to Biden in terms of his social and moral views. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 19:02
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Famethrowa posted:he also purposefully extended it through Kissinger so he could use it against LBJ and the Democrats. I don't think he wins points on this one. Again, compared to Obama/Biden’s handling of the forever war in the Middle East, it is still a further left position to end it.
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Jul 16, 2020 19:05
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Again, compared to Obama/Biden’s handling of the forever war in the Middle East, it is still a further left position to end it. nixon invaded Cambodia and directly caused a genocide that killed 2 million people
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Jul 16, 2020 19:06
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Off the top of my head: Nixon had a Democratic Congress with a near-Veto proof majority.
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Jul 16, 2020 19:09
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I think Garry Will's Nixon Agonistes makes the "best" case that Nixon was in the liberal tradition, but I think that accounts that stress that he was a savvy political operator that had to deal with an ideologically opposed congress and discourse and was really just working to split the new deal coalition by taking advantage of its internal contradictions is more compelling.
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Jul 16, 2020 19:13
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plogo posted:I think Garry Will's Nixon Agonistes makes the "best" case that Nixon was in the liberal tradition, but I think that accounts that stress that he was a savvy political operator that had to deal with an ideologically opposed congress and discourse and was really just working to split the new deal coalition by taking advantage of its internal contradictions is more compelling. Also the actual words that came out of his mouth. He was a monstrously racist evil retrograde motherfucker. Edit: although I will give him this; he was rightfully terrified of Ronald Reagan, because he recognized Reagan as the Marlo to his Barksdale. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 19:16
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Off the top of my head: The UBI stuff was in 1969, so he gave up on it, it seems? The vietnam stuff is, uh a lot more complicated given that the bulk of the fighting (and the dying) happened in nixon's first term. Also his willingness to turn the conflict into a regional war takes some very hard squinting to turn into 'anti-war' WRT the EPA, are you suggesting that the dems are against the EPA, because that's just absurd. The UHP stuff I've never heard of before, so if you've got some reading on it, I'd be interested. On balance, this very much does not seem 'to the left of modern dems' and especially if you take into account the other things we know about nixon and his personal virulent racism.
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Jul 16, 2020 19:17
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Herstory Begins Now posted:The UBI stuff was in 1969, so he gave up on it, it seems? it was a rather right-wing version of UHP that still manages to be more progressive then the ACA. I've bolded the parts that are objectively more progressive then ACA. quote:Nixon proposed that all employers be required to offer insurance to full-time employees. Employers and employees would share the premium “on a basis which would prevent excessive burdens on either,” a novel idea that would have extended coverage to a large proportion of working Americans. There would be a limit on total medical expenses per covered family, and the federal government would provide temporary subsidies to small and low-wage employers to offer employees affordable insurance. https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2017/lessons-universal-coverage-unexpected-advocate-richard-nixon edit: Nixon, I think, is just a good example and proof of the Overton window and how the Democrats especially have allowed it to shift to the right by chasing Nixon's base. The fact that such a retrograde rear end in a top hat has positions equal or arguably better then the current Democrat candidate, is really disturbing. Famethrowa fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 19:22
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Nixon had a plan for UBI The "plan" was the Earned Income Tax Credit. The purpose was to use it as an excuse to dismantle welfare programs. quote:Nixon was for a universal health plan that opened Medicare to be available to everyone. Nixon's plan introduced the employer mandate. Obamacare's primary purpose was to fix most of the shortcomings with Nixon's healthcare "reforms".
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Jul 16, 2020 19:26
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Seems like a pretty poo poo proposal compared to FDRs?
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Jul 16, 2020 19:26
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