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Madurai posted:It's been a while but I... don't remember a lot of affection between the two? It felt a lot like a package being handed off. They only have a brief onscreen interaction but the text explicitly mentions Marlene has been Ellie’s surrogate mom since birth in TLOU. Ellie is understandably pretty pissed and worried at her handing her off to two complete strangers. I’ll just repost the scene because funnily enough it also shows Joel is not ambush proof.  https://youtu.be/PCXPE-mdQGg Timestamp doesn’t seem to work on phone, should be 1:15
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Jul 15, 2020 23:33
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Cinemasins-level nitpick, but how does anyone still have any bullets left? The last arms factory closed its doors and the last gun shop was looted 24 years ago, and you can't exactly make modern ammunition (modern anything really but that's another subject) in your garage.
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Jul 16, 2020 00:34
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Flesnolk posted:Cinemasins-level nitpick, but how does anyone still have any bullets left? The last arms factory closed its doors and the last gun shop was looted 24 years ago, and you can't exactly make modern ammunition (modern anything really but that's another subject) in your garage. You can actually make modern ammunition in your garage, getting the propellant would probably be the hardest part: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handloading I knew a few people that would make their own ammo for competitions. That said, it would be interesting if guns were much more rare in TLoU2 vs TLoU, or if there was a Revolution-style "everyone uses 19th century non-repeating rifles now", but really when it comes down to it, people expect guns in the game so guns there shall be.
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Jul 16, 2020 00:47
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Sassy Sasquatch posted:They only have a brief onscreen interaction but the text explicitly mentions Marlene has been Ellie’s surrogate mom since birth in TLOU. Ellie is understandably pretty pissed and worried at her handing her off to two complete strangers. I’ll just repost the scene because funnily enough it also shows Joel is not ambush proof. I dunno if that's completely accurate. I think the whole Marlene/Ellie relationship is pretty one sided. As in, Marlene has been keeping tabs on Ellie but hasn't been raising her or anything and Ellie barely even knew about her. I think, according to the American Dreams prequel comic, Ellie's first actual interaction with Marlene is not THAT long before TLOU where Marlene fake threatens to kill her friend and then reveals that she was friends with Ellie's dead mum and hands her a knife. Then nothing till Ellie gets bit, then a not designated yet probably short time between that and handing Ellie off to Joel. So Joel murdering her is not winning him any points but it's more like he killed a long estranged aunt than her adoptive mum. I mean, I wouldn't forgive him but it's the apocalypse, so I guess people are more or less desensitised to people they know murdering other people they know.
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Jul 16, 2020 04:01
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Ok it’s been over 24 hours and the dude who said he skipped a third of the cutscenes is still giving me hives
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Jul 16, 2020 04:07
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok it’s been over 24 hours and the dude who said he skipped a third of the cutscenes is still giving me hives I'm just wondering how you pick which ones to skip
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Jul 16, 2020 04:20
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https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bv8da4/the-not-so-hidden-israeli-politics-of-the-last-of-us-part-ii Interesting article and this quote in particular stood out to me quote:The Last of Us Part II is an incredible journey that provides not only one of the most mesmerizing spectacles that we've seen from big budget video games, but one that manages to ask difficult questions along the way. It's clearly coming from an emotionally authentic and self-examining place. The trouble with it, and the reason that Ellie's journey ultimately feels nonsensical, is that it begins from a place that accepts "intense hate that is universal" as a fact of life, rather than examining where and why this behavior is learned.
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Jul 16, 2020 17:36
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I don't think it's saying that at all. e: also this is tangential but I clicked through some of the other articles linked there and did Rob Zacny of the same site really miss, like, the entire point of the ending, which is that Ellie didn't actually get the chance to reconcile with Joel and it's that anguish and loss that motivates her revenge, the loss of a bond unhealed? He doesn't even mention it and acts like they already had closure! I thought he was a better critic than that. Arist fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 17:51
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Arist posted:I don't think it's saying that at all. It's based on a druckmann quote from earlier in the piece “I landed on this emotional idea of, can we, over the course of the game, make you feel this intense hate that is universal in the same way that unconditional love is universal?” Druckmann told the Post. “This hate that people feel has the same kind of universality. You hate someone so much that you want them to suffer in the way they’ve made someone you love suffer.”
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Jul 16, 2020 18:06
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Arist posted:I don't think it's saying that at all. the main point of his second article is that the final conversation does the exact opposite of what you're saying here. most of the game is spent letting you think that there is this big unresolved tension between them, unanswered questions, and that their relationship effectively ended after the return to salt lake. joel dying while the relationship is in this state does make for a really tragic and compelling motivation for ellie. then the last flashback happens, the "things we wished we had said before you died" conversation that people always regret not having did in fact happen, joel and ellie got to say what they needed to say, and they both made it clear that they still cared about each other before he died
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Jul 16, 2020 18:23
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Fellatio del Toro posted:the main point of his second article is that the final conversation does the exact opposite of what you're saying here. most of the game is spent letting you think that there is this big unresolved tension between them, unanswered questions, and that their relationship effectively ended after the return to salt lake. joel dying while the relationship is in this state does make for a really tragic and compelling motivation for ellie. then the last flashback happens, the "things we wished we had said before you died" conversation that people always regret not having did in fact happen, joel and ellie got to say what they needed to say, and they both made it clear that they still cared about each other before he died He doesn't actually engage with that at all though? It comes across like he just missed the point entirely. And, I disagree heavily that the conversation we're talking about was in any way closure. It was potential for restoration, but not restoration itself.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:27
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for sure the relationship wasn't healed, but I think the grief would have been much worse if they didn't get to have that conversation. and the game lets you think they didn't right up until the final flashback, which lands in an awkward way for people who already felt that the motivation for ellie's actions were wearing thin by the end
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Jul 16, 2020 18:42
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If they didn't, if they were still distant, than that makes the revenge even less sensible. That there was an attempt made and cut off before it even really got a chance is what makes the grief so profound.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:46
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Arist posted:He doesn't actually engage with that at all though? It comes across like he just missed the point entirely. That's a type of closure, but you could also argue that the closure for Ellie was telling Joel that she knows what he did and how she felt about it. There are more types of closure than "the previous relationship was restored." And given the major tension at the end of TLoU was "does Ellie really know, and how would she feel about it?", that conversation is a definitely a form of closure for the player. You're welcome to disagree of course, but I think dismissing other interpretations, such as the one in the article, as "missed the point" is a bit limiting when it comes for discussing the critique itself.
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Jul 16, 2020 18:46
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Arist posted:If they didn't, if they were still distant, than that makes the revenge even less sensible. i guess we'll just have to disagree here. they still cared for each other and i think both wanted to reconcile, but i feel her anger would have seemed more justified if she felt that abby had denied her that final conversation
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Jul 16, 2020 19:05
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someone disagrees with me? i thought they were a better critic than that
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Jul 16, 2020 20:56
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I'm talking about specifically the part where they don't even like, bring up the blatant intention of the scene, my dude
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Jul 16, 2020 21:03
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok but compared to literally every other AAA game I have ever played it actually DOES go above and beyond in terms of LGBT representation
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Jul 16, 2020 21:32
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Authorial intent doesn't result in the definitive way to understand a text, if someone have a different takeaway from a scene, especially an emotional takeaway that the impact of the rest of the story relies on, that's not a fault of the player. Especially in a game series that makes heavy use of subtext. Maybe you can point me to a copy of the script placed in the game, with director's notes, my dude. Cardiovorax posted:Sorry about getting to this late, but I agree that while it does "go above and beyond" in comparison to every other AAA title around, that really says more about the state of LGBT representation in video games than it says about TLOU 2. In the other thread, I made a point that it's really doing just about the least daring thing that you possibly can when it comes to representing LGBT relationships in games: it's about two attractive young white women of exactly the sort that the average male gamer type probably already has fantasies about having sex with each other, if they're not just outright watching porn videos that feature it. Considering what they also do to Lev, a lot of people ended up agreeing with opinion that it does a good impression of trying to be progressive, but doesn't really do anything all that actually progressive. It pushes no boundaries at all, it's all very safe and PR friendly. To add to this, is it even sufficient to just hold the quality of representation in a game against the standards of other games, as opposed to against other media in general. And I don't think just saying "well it's gamers, you can't push too much" is fair either, as that's the same sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that led Marvel to avoid having a female-led movie for a decade. Or a movie with a large black cast. Hobo fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 21:36
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Cardiovorax posted:Sorry about getting to this late, but I agree that while it does "go above and beyond" in comparison to every other AAA title around, that really says more about the state of LGBT representation in video games than it says about TLOU 2. In the other thread, I made a point that it's really doing just about the least daring thing that you possibly can when it comes to representing LGBT relationships in games: it's about two attractive young white women of exactly the sort that the average male gamer type probably already has fantasies about having sex with each other, if they're not just outright watching porn videos that feature it. seriously though bringing this point up whenever there's lesbian rep in games is loving disgusting. you can criticize it without resorting to this hoary stereotype. lesbian representation in fiction can exist and be criticized and praised on its own terms without constantly going 'but what if a hypothetical man is getting off to it?' framing things like this contributes to the hypersexualization of lesbianism you (apparently) think is bad and also makes it impossible for lesbians to discuss things that involve them without having to argue around imaginary men. the way people constantly argue lesbianism is the 'least' of representation based on their own hosed up fantasies that they project onto hypothetical dudes, loving hurts. Endorph fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 21:37
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Yeah I mean that scene in particular is vague enough that everyone playing is going to project their own ideas about what closure is, whether or not that counts as closure, whether it hurts more that they managed to patch things up or not, etc. I feel like many scenes are directed with very serious intentions but all the Joel flashbacks seem pretty open ended.
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Jul 16, 2020 21:38
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and speaking anecdotally but even stuff that is literally leaning into trashy 'sexy lesbians for men to enjoy' tend to result in men wringing their hands and going 'duhh, it feels weird......,' in my experience
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Jul 16, 2020 21:42
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Endorph posted:funfact, did you know: people vastly overstate the amount of lesbian porn straight men consume, based on actual statistics. wonder why people bring this talking point up so much! I didn't quite understand what you were saying at first before you expanded on it past that part I formatted because I've only got 5 brain cells to work with on a good day, but yeah you've got a good point. LGBT representation all being framed in making chuds or whoever angry is mad garbage.
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Jul 16, 2020 21:45
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I'm personally fairly convinced that with corporations working the way they do, they wouldn't have included Ellie and Dina as a couple if they had feared that it would turn enough people off of the game for it to actually affect sales to a meaningful degree. It's great to have Lesbian representation in video games, but do not believe for a moment that the reception wouldn't have been even worse if they had been a couple of young men instead. I think that contributes a lot to why that is something we never seem to see in video games: the mindset of the industry and the people who consume video games hasn't actually changed that much.
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Jul 16, 2020 21:50
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Cardiovorax posted:I'm personally fairly convinced that with corporations working the way they do, they wouldn't have included Ellie and Dina as a couple if they had feared that it would turn enough people off of the game for it to actually affect sales to a meaningful degree. It's great to have Lesbian representation in video games, but do not believe for a moment that the reception wouldn't have been even worse if they had been a couple of young men instead. lmao get real. this is literally just you saying real gay rep requires two men and two women doesnt count. for instance, i extremely doubt you've made similar posts about JRPGs or Visual Novels (genres popular with straight women) that have gay male rep.
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Jul 16, 2020 21:51
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Endorph posted:Oh no! not much worse reception! There'd be even more angry posts on 4chan that dont meaningfully affect sales at all!!! Christ.
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Jul 16, 2020 21:56
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Endorph posted:Oh no! not much worse reception! There'd be even more angry posts on 4chan that dont meaningfully affect sales at all!!! Can you name a AAA game that has non-optional gay male rep?
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Jul 16, 2020 21:59
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Cardiovorax posted:Gay men do in fact have a legitimate right to be angry that they and their specific concerns never seem to get anything approaching a positive representation in games, because yeah, gently caress for you trying to minimize and erase that. Sassy Sasquatch posted:Can you name a AAA game that has non-optional gay male rep? Seriously people act like lesbians are the default gay rep but they just aren't. At worst they and gay men are similarly represented. There is an argument to be made that gay men are more common. Endorph fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 21:59
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Endorph posted:Please point out the wide array of huge mainstream lesbian games that apparently exist then, lol. Like in the AAA space I can name like... life is strange and this? Mmh that’s definitely not the vibe I’m getting. I think the last story driven games I played that had meaningful gay rep were life is strange, gone home, left behind... and yeah all of these were lesbian relationships. Haven’t played DA:I though. Overall I get the feeling that when gay men are represented it’s often in a vacuum rather than in actual relationships. More importantly these games are old af and it makes me sad I can’t think of anything more recent.
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Jul 16, 2020 22:20
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I mean again, can you name that much AAA stuff with lesbian rep? Its like 3 or 4 games with explicit non optional stuff in the past decade. Maybe more if you count bioware games, but most of those games have gay male stuff too. And if were talking side characters who are passing mentions it def. feels like gay men are more common, not that that type matters much. Like maybe lesbians are very slightly more represented in terms of playable protagonists but its still ultinmately arguing over table scraps. Trying to guilt lesbians into feeling bad about those scraps or saying they only exist for mens sake is some existential terror level stuff. We should be asking for more rep on both axis and more nuanced representation of sexuality and gender in general, not circular firing squadding it up. And i dont even think this game is good lesbian rep
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Jul 16, 2020 22:24
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This game has better lesbian representation than a lot of movies and TV shows with gay characters IMO, and that’s something we’ve had for a decade. Ellie and Dina aren’t stereotypes are all, and They both get moments of intense physical action as well as soft emotional levity. I think Jesse gets really under spoken in this regard because the way that he approaches Eli and Dina’s hook up from a very real and personal place but doesn’t make it about their sexuality at all and just approaches them both as people the whole thing feels very fluid and organic and I think he is very tightly written to be honest
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Jul 16, 2020 22:37
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Yeah I agree with you there, it’s not a competition and there should just be more gay rep across the board. I’m glad they wrote Lev in though, he’s one of the few good things to come out of this game for me. (Although I understand that character comes with it’s own issues in terms of writing)
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Jul 16, 2020 22:39
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Dina is not lesbian, she’s bisexual (or pan), which has its own representation problems with men and women. Not to mention the erasure that happens in these conversations as everyone is reduced to straight or gay
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Jul 17, 2020 02:51
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Endorph posted:Oh no! not much worse reception! There'd be even more angry posts on 4chan that dont meaningfully affect sales at all!!! Ooh ooh, my turn to be called a loving moron! I still think that a gay make romance is a harder sell to the executives greenlighting games to be made in the first place though. I don't think that the world can't handle a genuine male relationship now, but I can't shake the assumption that it'd be less likely to happen. How dumb am I? RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 03:19
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I don't understand this supposed rule that if gayness or transness is part of the character's storyline or conflict its automatically a bad representation. Like, it is a cause of conflict in a lot of people's lives. Sure there are characters who are just gay and its not the central aspect of their conflict but I don't understand why its a steadfast rule that can't be broken.
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Jul 17, 2020 03:26
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RareAcumen posted:Ooh ooh, my turn to be called a loving moron! I live in a tiny bubble but Hulu and Netflix have quite a few popular programs about young queer people. I think your point about gay men being more “threatening” to suits than women is fair but Dina and Ellie aren’t really explicitly sexual at any point except for the smooch at the end in the flashback. If they were gender swapped I don’t think it would be seen as any more aggressive because they aren’t really “in your face” at any point. It’s especially obvious when you contrast it to Abby & Owen.
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Jul 17, 2020 03:51
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Onmi posted:Maybe because in real life, times are exceptionally cynical, people don't want gratuitous murderporn anymore? They'd rather positive experiences that make them feel better and cut through the edge and grime of reality? It doesn't have anything to do with your favorite TV show being fart gas, it has to do with a general shift of public desires. I feel like I am one of the few who wants negative experiences during bad times and happy experiences during happy times. I simply can't turn my brain off during bad time and desire to remain aware of the bad spot humanity is in right now instead of hiding and thinking of a happy place. Guess it's why I love TLOU2 so much it because it hurts me plenty
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Jul 17, 2020 03:53
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Bust Rodd posted:Dina and Ellie aren’t really explicitly sexual at any point except for the smooch at the end in the flashback. They literally gently caress at the beginning of the game...
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Jul 17, 2020 04:19
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Veks posted:They literally gently caress at the beginning of the game... I remember them making out when they find Eugene's weed and porn stash but I thought it'd cut away before showing anything really explicit compared to the just-below the edge of the screen stuff with Owen and Abby.
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Jul 17, 2020 04:47
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I think the two things aren't mutually exclusive. Druckmann can be engaging some themes of "universal hate" as well as some of the specificities to the individual. Ellie learned to be comfortable leaning into violence from Joel and also grew up in a violent world. The "problem" is that the narratives of the game exist in a way to make the violence diegetic and "justified". Action Button's Last of Us video is really great on this point (it is lengthy and verbose and the start is obnoxious, but he makes good points). Even if you think TLOU's story is good "in it's own right" and it must be if it's becoming a HBO show, every aspect of the story is also there to provide a rationale for the violence you enact. That's why a non violent Naughty Dog game would be interesting because their writing and environmental design is good enough to justify it. I want adventure, companion dialogue, puzzles and traversal with AAA graphics
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Jul 17, 2020 06:26
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