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ApplesandOranges posted:How hard would it be to actually kill someone with a scalpel? I mean I know they're designed for cutting flesh and all, but actually killing someone like the way we saw D-Team with a tiny blade in a surprise attack seems... iffy. Onmi posted:Not hard at all, actually, Scalpels are very good at killing. You're probably thinking of when you see scalpels used in medical shows - the doctor is holding it very gingerly like a pencil or a dinner knife, so the obvious thought is that it'd be awkward to use as a weapon. But that's just the way to get very fine motor control for precise incisions; there's no reason Mira can't just fully grip the handle like a normal stabbing knife and go to town.
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Jul 17, 2020 13:11
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PopeCrunch posted:So the relaxation room can change what it looks like at the push of a button. The layouts of the three wards are actually pretty damned similar. How do we know there ARE three different wards? 
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Jul 17, 2020 13:21
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You did call it, I saw at the end of the Pod Room like there was something on the floor I just assumed it was from a different Q fragment
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Jul 17, 2020 14:18
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DKII posted:In the Decontamination Room fragments, it's implied that the first team to hit the button "wins" and the other teams are executed via acid bath. The global flowchart actually shows Q-Team's fragment extending from C-Team's "don't press" decision, and D-Team's fragment extending from Q-Team's "don't press" decision. The race was a lie - C-Team pressing the button would always execute Q-Team and D-Team, without even giving them the chance to do the same. I don't think this is a lie, as such - I mean, okay, the teams aren't actually racing to push the button, it just means Zero was contriving a little to get it to work. Remember that the losing teams in the scenario weren't killed immediately; they were put to sleep and then woken up later and killed or not killed as appropriate then. Because of that contrivance, Zero can have all three scenarios play out "in parallel", and then make a decision on who pushed the button the quickest after the fact. I don't think any of this matters because the game as far as I can tell never engages with the idea that multiple teams may have pressed the button but I think that's how we're supposed to think of it working out.
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Jul 17, 2020 14:36
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Yeah, uh... the entire point (haha!) of scalpels is cutting through flesh quickly and easily. It's not difficult to gently caress someone up with one. Quite a dangerous weapon.
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Jul 17, 2020 14:40
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Fedule posted:I don't think this is a lie, as such - I mean, okay, the teams aren't actually racing to push the button, it just means Zero was contriving a little to get it to work. Remember that the losing teams in the scenario weren't killed immediately; they were put to sleep and then woken up later and killed or not killed as appropriate then. Because of that contrivance, Zero can have all three scenarios play out "in parallel", and then make a decision on who pushed the button the quickest after the fact. I'm pretty sure DKII has it correct, if I'm remembering it properly. This Zero is a sadist and, unlike the other Zeroes, cares nothing about fair play. He's one of those "letter of the law before spirit of the law" types. C-team always gets right of first refusal in the decontamination room. The flowchart bears this out.
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Jul 17, 2020 14:45
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...! posted:I'm pretty sure DKII has it correct, if I'm remembering it properly. This Zero is a sadist and, unlike the other Zeroes, cares nothing about fair play. He's one of those "letter of the law before spirit of the law" types. C-team always gets right of first refusal in the decontamination room. The flowchart bears this out. Yeah, unlike Akane or Sigma, the idea of this is not merely to "Introduce danger" to the game to help develop psychic powers. This one clearly has no value for human life. And if he is Delta, like suggested, that lack of care for human life extends to his own sister and parents. Like one can say that Akane and Sigma also showed disregard for human life, but in Akane's case, it was leaving a murderer with the players, in Sigma's case, his method was painless death. Why does Zero II need to blow the heads off the awake team killed in the execution? The same for the Button. What's the drat point of the nuke button in the Healing room beyond fuckin' Yucks? And that's his fuckin' family, theoretically. It felt like with the healing room he couldn't actually think of a decision and just decided "gently caress it I'm just gonna like... put a button and tell em not to push it, and if they do everyone dies." I can understand the "Roll three 1s in a single roll" because that at least exists to force Carlos and company to develop further as psychics. But the Healing Room has no point.
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Jul 17, 2020 14:57
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I think the key point to understanding Zero's plan is the setup , the 'Decision Game'. His goal here is to use this to cause a large number of timelines to be created through lots of life-or-death decisions, and in each of these he has some goal he wants to achieve. We've already seen at least two of them, the release of Radical-6 and assuring his own birth (and Transport). As those came from C-Team's execution and Q-Team's execution respectively, I suspect that he has at least two more things that he wants to accomplish. One from this current timeline (D-Team's execution), and one from the timeline where all teams survive. My original thought was that he was training up people's SHIFT abilities, but after everything else that feels far too altruistic. Maybe he needs their abilities for something, but they'd only be expendable pawns in that.
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Jul 17, 2020 15:29
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Why would Zero inject D Team if he thought they were dead? Does that mean Sigma and Diana in another timeline spent 10 months being knocked out every hour and a half? That would get incredibly annoying. Yes I realize that's irrelevant (probably) but I'm also not finished with my coffee so my critical thinking skills are not quite there. And I could have sworn everyone met Gato in the opening scene, but looking back they were all in separate cells with only small windows too tall for him to look out of EDIT2: We're just gonna pretend I'm a grown man who knows how to count Rabbi Raccoon fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 15:29
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:EDIT: Wait, why did they get 6 codes? Even in this timeline, there's only 5 bodies. Mira, Akane, Junpei, Diana, Sigma, Phi.
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Jul 17, 2020 15:36
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Why would Zero inject D Team if he thought they were dead? Does that mean Sigma and Diana in another timeline spent 10 months being knocked out every hour and a half? That would get incredibly annoying. Yes I realize that's irrelevant (probably) but I'm also not finished with my coffee so my critical thinking skills are not quite there. In that timeline the X Door was already opened once, so the game was over, and thus no more injection. In this timeline, no one has opened the door yet, so the game is still going on, so injection happens. Though the way the game handles the bracelet clocks through the Transporter is really weird to me in general. Wouldn't the transported people just stay in their local time from where they transported from on their watches? Or is there some automatic time syncing going on?
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Jul 17, 2020 15:38
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:And I could have sworn everyone met Gato in the opening scene, but looking back they were all in separate cells with only small windows too tall for him to look out of They also have no memory of the coin flip fragment.
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Jul 17, 2020 15:46
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Also, remember that -- just like with the decontamination room -- only one team can be in the lounge at any given time. So, since the X-Door only opens once, there's no way for members of more than one team to leave via the X-Passes. The Sigma and Diana who were trapped in the bunker for ten months never even had a chance to leave. They had no way of getting to and opening the X-Door before Akane left; they were asleep when she did. When this Zero says "first", he really does mean first. He's not secretly adding a time offset onto his statement. There's absolutely no reason to believe he was using a stopwatch in the decontamination room to time each team's decision. It's not important to him.
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Jul 17, 2020 15:51
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Admiral H. Curtiss posted:In that timeline the X Door was already opened once, so the game was over, and thus no more injection. In this timeline, no one has opened the door yet, so the game is still going on, so injection happens. I can only guess that their bracelets have a wifi connection and the timers just display whatever the computer they're connecting to has as its time.
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Jul 17, 2020 15:53
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sirtommygunn posted:I can only guess that their bracelets have a wifi connection and the timers just display whatever the computer they're connecting to has as its time. It is kinda funny though that of all the solutions to bracelets in the series this one is actually just simply "Slide something between your arm and the needles." Like, if any team knows of the Transporter room, and that the wards are all one, they can go to there and grab the plates to break their needles and be free from the knock out and memory drugs.
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Jul 17, 2020 15:57
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Also you'd think that Sigma would have been looking for something like aluminum foil after VLR.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:03
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I love casual axe murderer Carlos here. Like hey just ignore all the blood and the axe and the cut off arm, that was all the last Carlos.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:05
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DKII posted:So that's a bit of a cheat there. There was no expectation that they'd see each other's wards, so the only reason for those rooms to look any different is to fool the player. This seems true for the prep room and decontamination room, but in order to maintain the illusion that all three wards are cut off from each other you have to hide the entrances to two sets of rooms depending on which team is active at the time, which it seems like is what the whole wall-changing technology was for.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:06
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This also means that The Pantry and thus, food for Diana and Sigma, likely existed in the timeline where they were locked in. Which is another sign of Zero being a cruel person. There's no reason to condemn his parents to starve to death. And he can clearly use the Morphogenetic field if he's setting up so many variant timelines and predicted people jumping timelines like C-Team. So- Okay I get it, if he reveals more food, then perhaps Sigma and Diana don't transport the kids. If Sigma and Diana get more food, they might try to use the Transporter in more ways than Zero wants. but like... Dude, you couldn't set up an auto-timer for just after the kids were transported to reveal more food, or open the X-Door and let them out? Did you need to let them die of starvation? I don't think you did.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:12
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Another interesting thing: you can see that all Lounges have the same furniture in different team fragments! Characters from different teams tend to hang out in different parts of it, but sometimes you can see Q team favorite bar when you are watching C team sitting on their favorite sofas, for example.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:18
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So here's the (kinda) dumb thing that never really gets commented on. Carlos has his bracelet off, so he won't get injected. Which means that he'd be awake when Q-Team was up... but he never runs into them. Q-Team is stuck in the Pod Room admittedly, so you could say that he was locked out, but there's nothing stopping him from opening the door from the outside, or to see or hear Eric's rampage with the shotgun. In addition, he should have noticed when the layout gets changed to look like the Q Ward, but Diana still had to loop him in.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:20
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Onmi posted:This also means that The Pantry and thus, food for Diana and Sigma, likely existed in the timeline where they were locked in. Which is another sign of Zero being a cruel person. There's no reason to condemn his parents to starve to death. And he can clearly use the Morphogenetic field if he's setting up so many variant timelines and predicted people jumping timelines like C-Team. So- Okay I get it, if he reveals more food, then perhaps Sigma and Diana don't transport the kids. If Sigma and Diana get more food, they might try to use the Transporter in more ways than Zero wants. but like... Dude, you couldn't set up an auto-timer for just after the kids were transported to reveal more food, or open the X-Door and let them out? Did you need to let them die of starvation? I don't think you did. To be fair, Zero did leave them a handgun with at least three bullets left! It also just strains credulity that the Sigma who has just spent the last 45 years doing science on the Moon wouldn’t think to poke at the walls and discover the irregularities, or ever study the layout of the wards while they were sitting around doing nothing for months. And why are the walls less durable than the floor, which had at least one bottle of booze smashed on it without damaging the displays? Of course, none of us are on Uchikoshi’s Wild Ride for his literary realism.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:28
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ApplesandOranges posted:So here's the (kinda) dumb thing that never really gets commented on. Carlos has his bracelet off, so he won't get injected. Which means that he'd be awake when Q-Team was up... but he never runs into them. Q-Team is stuck in the Pod Room admittedly, so you could say that he was locked out, but there's nothing stopping him from opening the door from the outside, or to see or hear Eric's rampage with the shotgun. In addition, he should have noticed when the layout gets changed to look like the Q Ward, but Diana still had to loop him in. Huh, that is... weird. Like I know it's the SHIFTing Carlos but where was he? I was about to say "Oh, Q-Team did the pod room and Carlos is acting post Pod-Room Q-Team who got memory drugged." But no, the Chainsaw marks on the ground in the Pod Room fragment means that Carlos should have been active at the same time. I guess he went to... well not the Infirmary, because wait- No, that actually works. He went to the Infirmary and it took him a few hours to tend to himself.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:31
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The Infirmary shares a wall with the Lounge, so there's no reason for Carlos not to hear those shotgun blasts unless the walls were that thick.
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Jul 17, 2020 16:41
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I'm surprised nobody commented on how Sigma thought Carlos created bullet holes on the input device with an axe 
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Jul 17, 2020 16:43
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1234567890num posted:I'm surprised nobody commented on how Sigma thought Carlos created bullet holes on the input device with an axe cause Carlos immediately points out how stupid he's being DKII posted:
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Jul 17, 2020 17:01
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Just look how there are bullet holes everywhere!
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Onmi posted:Huh, that is... weird. Like I know it's the SHIFTing Carlos but where was he? No, it doesn't really work. We saw that after he bandaged himself up in the Infirmary he wrote the note for Q-team to check the family portrait and sent Gab through the vent. Then he walked back into the Lounge saying he needed to figure out who the robot kid was (which is where the fragment ended). All of that has to be before the C-Q switch because Zero needs to show up by himself and move Gab to the opposite vent to maintain the "separate wards" illusion. Maybe he was just taking a nap because it did say he used some of the anesthetic for the pain. whitehelm fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 17:07
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man, i don't even go to investigate noises from rooms next to me if my TOE hurts.
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Jul 17, 2020 17:54
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rko posted:To be fair, Zero did leave them a handgun with at least three bullets left! I don't think the floors had the display like the walls did, outside the healing room anyway.
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Jul 17, 2020 17:59
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sirtommygunn posted:I don't think the floors had the display like the walls did, outside the healing room anyway. They clearly do.   Even the couch has it. It's kinda silly.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:21
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The one part of the single-ward plan I don't get, and this is more of a metagame thing, is why Zero felt the need to adjust everyone's bracelet so that they appeared to all be acting at the "same time". What exactly is the purpose of that? The teams aren't supposed to interact with each other, and Zero's recordings don't make references to specific times, so it doesn't really do anything to the captives. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it beyond messing with the player's perception.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:25
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:The one part of the single-ward plan I don't get, and this is more of a metagame thing, is why Zero felt the need to adjust everyone's bracelet so that they appeared to all be acting at the "same time". What exactly is the purpose of that? The teams aren't supposed to interact with each other, and Zero's recordings don't make references to specific times, so it doesn't really do anything to the captives. There doesn't seem to be any reason for it beyond messing with the player's perception. He probably pulled an Akane and did it that way because it was made that way. He did tell us that he sees the future (have access to morphogenetic field).
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Jul 17, 2020 18:30
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Admiral H. Curtiss posted:
Wait, the box! I forgot about that (I don't usually vote, I just watch as it goes). Everyone had access to the same box. So that means...something. Hoo boy it's gonna be a long day at work
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Jul 17, 2020 18:31
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rko posted:And why are the walls less durable than the floor, which had at least one bottle of booze smashed on it without damaging the displays? Uh... the floor has to be more durable than the walls because, you know, people are walking on it.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:39
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:There doesn't seem to be any reason for it beyond messing with the player's perception. While obviously this is just to gently caress with us players, it might part of Zero's efforts to harden his torture porn game against morphogenetic shenanigans as much as possible.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:42
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Admiral H. Curtiss posted:They clearly do. Oh, my bad. That's really weird then.
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Jul 17, 2020 18:57
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Wait, the box! I forgot about that (I don't usually vote, I just watch as it goes). Everyone had access to the same box. So that means...something. Kinda wondering what it does, but nobody seems to give a poo poo so  ; we'll eventually we'll run out of more interesting options and I guess find out then.EDIT: My memory was faulty; I thought they were there at the start, but checking the polls, it seems like we unlocked Force Quit after the Decon Room visits. MagusofStars fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jul 17, 2020 |
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Jul 17, 2020 18:58
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Rabbi Raccoon posted:Wait, the box! I forgot about that (I don't usually vote, I just watch as it goes). Everyone had access to the same box. So that means...something. It likely means all three teams are needed to trigger the Force-Quit box. Stopping any individual team from triggering it, and, more than likely, forcing the players to cooperate and work with information only gainable by accessing the morphogenetic field. Also, another hint to the inhumanity of the robo-boy, is way back in that update, Sigma could barely lift the box, but the boy could shake it about like it was an empty cardboard box.
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Jul 17, 2020 19:00
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MagusofStars posted:The poll has had three separate team options to gently caress with "Force Quit Box" that have basically existed all game, but the thread has constantly ignored. I assume that those are the part of True Ending and have more locks on them than Phi route in VLR. I think it is better to get all other fragment first, so we won't have to replay them later again, because we didn't play something else first.
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Jul 17, 2020 19:03
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MiiNiPaa posted:I assume that those are the part of True Ending and have more locks on them than Phi route in VLR. I think it is better to get all other fragment first, so we won't have to replay them later again, because we didn't play something else first.
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Jul 17, 2020 19:07
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