|
Enjoy posted:Oh so now the Soviet armies reach Berlin without a problem? Plenty of imperialists wanted to re-arm what was left of the Wehrmacht and charge east at the start of the cold war as it was, when France and Britain were exhausted, and the Red Army was obviously superior to any combination of forces that could have been assembled on the continent, and the fait accompli being accepted was control over eastern Europe, and a small, under developed part of Germany. In this scenario of yours, in which the Soviets are able to occupy Germany quickly, while its forces are otherwise engaged, if that all goes as you say, what are you left with? In all likelihood, largely intact French and German forces, both materially superior in their own right to the Red Army. To suggest Britain and France would accept the new status quo is absurd.
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 23:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 11:04 |
|
|
Pomeroy posted:Plenty of imperialists wanted to re-arm what was left of the Wehrmacht and charge east at the start of the cold war as it was, when France and Britain were exhausted, and the Red Army was obviously superior to any combination of forces that could have been assembled on the continent, and the fait accompli being accepted was control over eastern Europe, and a small, under developed part of Germany. In this scenario of yours, in which the Soviets are able to occupy Germany quickly, while its forces are otherwise engaged, if that all goes as you say, what are you left with? In all likelihood, largely intact French and German forces, both materially superior in their own right to the Red Army. To suggest Britain and France would accept the new status quo is absurd. I'm sure Stalin would have done a variation on Yalta to keep everyone happy
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2020 23:56
|
|
|
Enjoy posted:I'm sure Stalin would have done a variation on Yalta to keep everyone happy Yalta didn't "keep everyone happy," the imperialists accepted it because they were objectively too weak to do otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 00:14
|
|
|
Enjoy, I have the power to make your counterfactual happen. I don’t need to explain myself here, other than you should mentally prepare yourself for the fact that when you close your eyes and fall asleep tonight, I am going to roll back history and possess Stalin with the singular thought to unilaterally invade Germany in 1940. You will wake up and be the only one to remember how everything unfolded originally. I hope you are confident in your predictions, because a lot of lives are at stake here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 00:36
|
|
|
THS posted:Enjoy, I have the power to make your counterfactual happen. I don’t need to explain myself here, other than you should mentally prepare yourself for the fact that when you close your eyes and fall asleep tonight, I am going to roll back history and possess Stalin with the singular thought to unilaterally invade Germany in 1940. You will wake up and be the only one to remember how everything unfolded originally. I hope you are confident in your predictions, because a lot of lives are at stake here. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 00:45
|
|
|
THS posted:Enjoy, I have the power to make your counterfactual happen. I don’t need to explain myself here, other than you should mentally prepare yourself for the fact that when you close your eyes and fall asleep tonight, I am going to roll back history and possess Stalin with the singular thought to unilaterally invade Germany in 1940. You will wake up and be the only one to remember how everything unfolded originally. I hope you are confident in your predictions, because a lot of lives are at stake here. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Pomeroy posted:Plenty of imperialists wanted to re-arm what was left of the Wehrmacht and charge east at the start of the cold war as it was, when France and Britain were exhausted, and the Red Army was obviously superior to any combination of forces that could have been assembled on the continent, and the fait accompli being accepted was control over eastern Europe, and a small, under developed part of Germany. In this scenario of yours, in which the Soviets are able to occupy Germany quickly, while its forces are otherwise engaged, if that all goes as you say, what are you left with? In all likelihood, largely intact French and German forces, both materially superior in their own right to the Red Army. To suggest Britain and France would accept the new status quo is absurd. Yeah, there are multiple layers to this, 1. being assuming that Germany and its allies couldn't bog down a Soviet assault (they absolutely could) and 2. that the Western allies would absolutely would be cool with the Soviets dominating Central Europe while they were in a weakened state (zero chance). Also, this would have happened before the US was in the war so Britain and France would more or less be alone in trying to push back against Soviet influence...unless they just signed peace with Germany and let them hash it out themselves. Let's be honest, they would probably start helping the Germans out at some point if it started to get bad. It was also the same reason the allies gave Poland a bunch of tanks (back then a novel invention) and arms in 1921 to stall Soviet advances. They didn't care about Poland, but they cared about the Soviets making their way into Germany and exporting revolution abroad.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 02:54
|
|
|
to break up endless ww2 chat, is there a good For Dummies source on a marxist view on monetary policy? as long as i've cared in the slightest about economics i've never understood it beyond "money is a commodity with a flexible value, you can control the value by loving around with banks" but i don't really know how or why. yes, i am reading capital, but i'd like a more introductory thing so i can get my head around it
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 02:58
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:to break up endless ww2 chat, is there a good For Dummies source on a marxist view on monetary policy? as long as i've cared in the slightest about economics i've never understood it beyond "money is a commodity with a flexible value, you can control the value by loving around with banks" but i don't really know how or why. yes, i am reading capital, but i'd like a more introductory thing so i can get my head around it I would say the issue is that monetary policy is something that is pretty much evolving in real time (also prior to the 1970s most currencies worked in a different way).
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 03:28
|
|
|
Enjoy posted:Both of those are explicitly because the USSR was aligned with the Germans. If the USSR attacked Germany, then that would undercut the point of the operations. Britain and France weren't looking for a USSR that was going to attack Germany. They wanted a post-Soviet Russia that was going to attack Germany. Operation Pike was intended to destabilize the USSR to the point of revolution against the current government - Trotsky had met with Daladier in 1933 specifically for this purpose.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 06:34
|
|
|
uncop posted:I have a lot of fun imagining what people who mention being part of an organization and still threaten people with violence online are like irl, and what their orgs are like. Like, have their official meetings ever just devolved into screeching about how someone's an enemy of the revolution that deserves a bullet over some petty little issue?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 08:15
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:So you are saying the deaths of Soviet citizens at the hand of the Germans was really just Stalin's fault. He's come to the same conclusions as the Ukrainian Nazi-funded Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation! Congratulations to him. e: Beaten to this exact point pages back. Thread is good.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 10:00
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C-2RgK3WwA&t=3330s
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 10:05
|
|
|
Prince Myshkin posted:He's come to the same conclusions as the Ukrainian Nazi-funded Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation! Congratulations to him. The Ukrainian Nazis hold the position that Stalin should have invaded Germany in 1940 in order to prevent the Holocaust?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 11:34
|
|
|
in response to "look at the death toll of the soviets from the nazi invasion", you repliedEnjoy posted:Usually, when lots of people die, the leadership is seen as more culpable, not less
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 12:24
|
|
|
last night i tried to engage in chrono-psychological mindwar with the Willpower of joseph stalin. guess i should have known i’d lose that one
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 13:50
|
|
|
THS posted:last night i tried to engage in chrono-psychological mindwar with the Willpower of joseph stalin. guess i should have known i’d lose that one Chin up! You'll get 'em next year.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 14:17
|
|
|
Pomeroy posted:I can't very well blame uncop for not answering, after my drunken outburst, but just for the sake of clarifying my own views, I think a pragmatic attitude towards questions of line and truth are dangerous, and ultimately fatal for communists. Well, the whole pragmatism accusation was based on a misunderstanding, so trying to answer it as is would probably just have produced more. I agree with almost everything you say here. Let me try to correct the misunderstanding though: My claim was that whether people were right can only be judged by practical results, and only once the results are in. It's a pretty basic claim about science that is at the root of both bourgeois and marxist philosophy of science. On the other hand, pragmatism's big claim is that there is nothing beyond practical results. According to its internal epistemology, trying to unify observations into universal truths through theory is useless. It's an anti-scientific, irrationalist philosophy, a revival of pure empiricism that reduces science to collecting statistics and finding data patterns. For it, all theory of such patterns is just collections of metaphors that can be switched up at will and don't need to be consistent with each other. So pragmatism definitely does imply a casual attitude to truth. What makes pragmatism's attitude to truth casual is not that it emphasizes practical results, it's that it rejects rationality and theory. De-emphasizing practical results would not be a counterattack against casual attitudes, it would itself be a casual attitude and an attack against marxism. To marxism and all science, practice is principal to theory. Marxism has to expect and pre-empt incorrectness through a process of criticism and self-criticism that collects the practical experiences of the whole movement, identifies patterns behind failed expectations and convinces its individual members that those patterns are counterproductive. Line is ideological rather than strictly scientific though, and has a more complex relationship to truth. When tackling novel or complex problems, no one has access to the whole truth. Having a line is necessary, but it's accidental if even a correct line is fully based on truth. The Bolshevik stance that a correct line is above critique until material conditions change was wrong, the correct stance is that knowledge contradicting a correct line is going to uncovered in the process of criticism and self-criticism simply because correct communist practice is based on incomplete knowledge. There are no correct lines that are based on complete knowledge, because that'd just be ineffectually tailing some actually successful movement whose practice is producing the necessary knowledge for the tailists. The correctness of a line has more to do with keeping the movement together and strengthening it despite an endless stream of mistakes. A correct line can even embrace pretty blatant untruths, although that's always walking a thin line because those untruths have to be unraveled before they become hindrances to further development. On the contrary to what you're saying, it's damaging to assume that just because someone's principled and capable, they are always speaking the truth in official capacity. If the movement as a whole makes that assumption, questioning the truth-value of their statements then becomes questioning their authority, an attack on the movement's coherence and the correct line. Both wishful thinking and outright deception are part of politics in both its peaceful and warlike forms. The whole idea of communism is wishful thinking until the moment that it actually exists in reality, but it has to be treated as if it were a prophetic, unquestionable truth. It's far more productive to normalize even the greatest leaders often having incorrect ideas and being reliant on others to set them straight. Then, correcting an incorrect line doesn't have the potential to weaken the movement and thrust it into a fatal catch-22.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 14:24
|
|
|
Quote is not edit, lol.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 14:25
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/vampitolbs/status/1284094567017480193?s=20
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 15:43
|
|
|
100% deserved the pick
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 15:44
|
|
|
lmao
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 15:45
|
|
|
truly he deserved what he got
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 15:46
|
|
|
He's not wrong, he's just an rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 15:48
|
|
|
Steve Buscemi as trotsky
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 15:50
|
|
|
Mr Pinko
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 16:36
|
|
|
Peanut President posted:Mr Pinko
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 16:40
|
|
|
GalacticAcid posted:Steve Buscemi as trotsky Peanut President posted:Mr Pinko
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 18:15
|
|
|
Enjoy posted:A Soviet attack on both Poland and Finland did not result in this so zero
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 19:11
|
|
|
Peanut President posted:Mr Pinko
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 19:13
|
|
|
why do I have to be mr pinko and he gets to be mr white? everyone: whoa I'm not mr white!
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 19:30
|
|
|
Why is focus on the Soviet failure to stop the Germans when the Japanese were waging an imperialist war against China for years at that point. The Soviets also had a recent victory against Japan as well, showing they could win. Japan was also a member of the anti-Comintern pact. What is Stalin's excuse for not liberating Manchuria?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 20:19
|
|
|
Atrocious Joe posted:Why is focus on the Soviet failure to stop the Germans when the Japanese were waging an imperialist war against China for years at that point. The Soviets also had a recent victory against Japan as well, showing they could win. Japan was also a member of the anti-Comintern pact. because the japanese mostly genocided asian people Goast fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jul 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 20:22
|
|
|
Peanut President posted:Mr Pinko
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 20:25
|
|
|
Atrocious Joe posted:Why is focus on the Soviet failure to stop the Germans when the Japanese were waging an imperialist war against China for years at that point. The Soviets also had a recent victory against Japan as well, showing they could win. Japan was also a member of the anti-Comintern pact. Japan weren't a threat to the USSR like Germany
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 20:40
|
|
|
lol that’s enough
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 20:45
|
|
|
GalacticAcid posted:lol that’s enough enough of what
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 20:53
|
|
|
I’m looking at pictures of the red army, and that poo poo is definitely canvas or olive. like maybe a few a sashes of red, MAYBE. why do communists perpetuate these lies???
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 21:02
|
|
|
Centrist Committee posted:I’m looking at pictures of the red army, and that poo poo is definitely canvas or olive. like maybe a few a sashes of red, MAYBE. why do communists perpetuate these lies???
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 21:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 11:04 |
|
|
Centrist Committee posted:I’m looking at pictures of the red army, and that poo poo is definitely canvas or olive. like maybe a few a sashes of red, MAYBE. why do communists perpetuate these lies??? Would you prefer trotskys aesthetics? 
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2020 21:12
|
|