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i dont think i even noticed the wing passage when i read the books, i just parsed the whole thing as "it's a demon" and read on
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Jul 21, 2020 12:21
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Radio! posted:Compromise: the balrog has one wing, Honda Civic style 
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Jul 21, 2020 12:28
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one wing to wule them all
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Jul 21, 2020 13:22
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We don't even know how much a balrog weighs, so that makes it hard to come to any conclusions on the load of the wings.
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Jul 21, 2020 13:32
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Is it an African or European balrog?
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Jul 21, 2020 13:40
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Are you suggesting Balrogs migrate?
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Jul 21, 2020 14:28
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Here are more quotes about the Balrogs and wings: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Balrogs/Wings I like this one quote:Some think the strongest objection is the simplest: that taking references like the second statement seriously mean that all lines must be taken literally. For example, shortly before the Balrog's appearance, "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company." So perhaps Gandalf had wings too.
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Jul 21, 2020 14:51
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Well fans repeatedly compare his kind to angels.
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Jul 21, 2020 14:53
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:What realy gets my goat is vampires.first age, vampires, then 0 vampires. Yeah I wish there were vampires in Lord of the Rings. Would be pretty funny to see Tolkien haggle his way through all the vampire folklore and cultural ideas about them. I've only read the Silmarillion so I don't know if he wrote much about them in the other stuff like Book of Lost Tales or whatever.
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Jul 21, 2020 14:54
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Thuringwethil isn’t in BOLT. In fact I’m not sure where the character came from originally. In the Lay of Leithian it’s just a fake name that Luthien makes up on the spot to try and con Morgoth. (meaning “secret shadow woman”, smooth one Luthien)
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Jul 21, 2020 15:03
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"Fly, you fools" came his last cry out of the depths, and the Fellowship took wing and soared out the East-gate. e: lol googling this apparently tons of people are super confused about this and think he meant they should call the Eagles or something Data Graham fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 15:15
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SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah I wish there were vampires in Lord of the Rings. Would be pretty funny to see Tolkien haggle his way through all the vampire folklore and cultural ideas about them. I liked that one of his original ideas for the "Hobbit sequel" was that Bilbo would go wandering in the woods and end up in "a witch house"
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Jul 21, 2020 15:16
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Tree Bucket posted:Well, to quote Tolkien himself, from the introduction to the Sil: Tolkien didn't realize the future artists inheriting his work would be the ones who think great art is best seen painted on the side of a van Runcible Cat posted:
Yeah this is literally how the Dwarves got souls. Aule made them but they were automata, got discovered by Illuvatar, immediately begged forgiveness and lifted his hammer to destroy them repenting his hubris, suddenly they're moving on their own, Illuvatar interceding. quote:I thought Ents were created by - Yavanna? as tree-herds? Though I suppose that runs into the no-soul problem. Hey Iluvatar, you gave Aule's dwarves souls, stop being a dick and soul up my tree people too! Oh you know this already yeah. There's a passage somewhere about how when the Valar and Maiar came into Middle-Earth there were already local spirits. But then after all Catholicism doesn't deny the existence of other deities or spirits, just says don't worship them. Arcsquad12 posted:I'll defend the Jackson Balrog because that is one of the best vfx designs ever created. It's a great design but it's pretty much exactly what you would expect Hollywood to make a balrog look like. Which is fine. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 15:28
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Are you suggesting Balrogs migrate? Not at all! They could hear Lammoth!
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Jul 21, 2020 16:12
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skasion posted:Thuringwethil isn’t in BOLT. In fact I’m not sure where the character came from originally. In the Lay of Leithian it’s just a fake name that Luthien makes up on the spot to try and con Morgoth. (meaning “secret shadow woman”, smooth one Luthien) Smoother than Beren and Felagund calling themselves Nereb and Dungalef, at least.... I'm not convinced Thuringwethil's meant to be a vampire in the bloodsucking sense rather than just OMG a humongous bat. But in what we have she only exists so Luthien can dress up in her skin.
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Jul 21, 2020 16:13
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Yeah just a big bat.
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Jul 21, 2020 16:13
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SHISHKABOB posted:Yeah I wish there were vampires in Lord of the Rings. Would be pretty funny to see Tolkien haggle his way through all the vampire folklore and cultural ideas about them. My impression is that they can't be very common at all. To tie it back to a previous conversation, Balrogs don't have wings (besides the text in Fellowship) because its seen as a big change in terms of the war when Morgoth manages to create flying dragons, as he finally has something that can contest the eagles. However, Sauron, in vampire form, is very clearly described as having pinions. His flight from Huan takes place before winged dragons are created, iirc, so it stands to reason that any vampire cadre/force/existence can't muster as significant military force, either from individual power or from numbers. Also they barely feature; existing as a form Sauron takes to flee a fight and as Sauron's messenger Thuringwethil. They have throats and non-metaphorical pinions, are fast in flight, and are presumably rare. Also, given Thuringwethil's name, maybe some kind of recognizably human-shaped...thing. I'm more inclined to think "giant loving bat" and leave it at that. Calling everything that's weird and rare a Maia seems a bit much, but they maybe fall into the "below a Maia, above the random tree spirits that keep cropping up" area? e: Come to think of it, probably analogous to Werewolves, which as far as I recall are just giant, intelligent, evil-spirited wolves, distinct from both wolves and wargs. Also, both associated with Sauron. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 16:24
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If you want an extra credit project explain the ghost wolves that attack the fellowship near Eregion
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Jul 21, 2020 16:32
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Runcible Cat posted:Smoother than Beren and Felagund calling themselves Nereb and Dungalef, at least.... Yeah no wonder Frodo made it to Mt Doom, after the poo poo he put up with from the heroes of elder days Sauron was probably expecting him to march up to Minas Morgul and introduce himself to Angmar as Dorfo Snagbig
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Jul 21, 2020 16:35
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Ravenfood posted:Also they barely feature; existing as a form Sauron takes to flee a fight and as Sauron's messenger Thuringwethil. They have throats and non-metaphorical pinions, are fast in flight, and are presumably rare. Also, given Thuringwethil's name, maybe some kind of recognizably human-shaped...thing. I'm more inclined to think "giant loving bat" and leave it at that. Calling everything that's weird and rare a Maia seems a bit much, but they maybe fall into the "below a Maia, above the random tree spirits that keep cropping up" area? Beren and Luthien dress up in someone's wolfskin (unnamed AFAIR) and Thuringwethil's bat-fell and explicitly change shape, so it seems like werewolves/vampires are humans with magical skins - made by someone? Sauron? It could be a variant on the werewolf legend of "you can make a deal with the devil to be a werewolf" - get in with Sauron, let him know you want to be a big nasty magical wolf and he might give you a present. He loooves giving people presents! (Sauron can change his own shape, but he's a high-level Maiar. Maybe Thuringwethil was the bat-fell beta-tester.)
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Jul 21, 2020 16:37
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Runcible Cat posted:someone's wolfskin (unnamed AFAIR) Draugluin
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Jul 21, 2020 16:38
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skasion posted:Draugluin Right, thanks. But anyway, the implication seems to be that they were skins for transforming men/elves, so rather than werewolves being a separate species/creation/sub-Maiar spirit thing they're assholes who could change back into people if they wanted but like being big scary monster wolves. (Or it's another of Sauron's Annatar pranks - you put 'em on, you can't take 'em off. Or maybe after a while you don't want to.)
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Jul 21, 2020 16:52
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Runcible Cat posted:Beren and Luthien dress up in someone's wolfskin (unnamed AFAIR) and Thuringwethil's bat-fell and explicitly change shape, so it seems like werewolves/vampires are humans with magical skins - made by someone? Sauron? It could be a variant on the werewolf legend of "you can make a deal with the devil to be a werewolf" - get in with Sauron, let him know you want to be a big nasty magical wolf and he might give you a present. He loooves giving people presents! Draugluin, and while Beren and Luthien change shape, we never see werewolves in anything but wolf-shape. Werewolves also breed other werewolves (Draugluin is Carcharoth's sire). euphronius posted:If you want an extra credit project explain the ghost wolves that attack the fellowship near Eregion Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 16:56
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The closest we get to a definition of werewolves in Tolkien is in the Beren and Luthien bit in the QS, “fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he [Sauron] had imprisoned in their bodies”. Draugluin is also described as “sire of the werewolves of Angband”. So it seems like they were ghosts? lesser spirits of Melkor’s party? It sure doesn’t seem like they can change back and forth so I would have to lean towards the former — maybe this is one of those necromantic things Sauron does offscreen.
skasion fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 17:01
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euphronius posted:If you want an extra credit project explain the ghost wolves that attack the fellowship near Eregion Wolves that were smart enough to carry away their dead.
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Jul 21, 2020 17:10
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i dont think the vala-maia-elves-humans categories were ever intended to cover every living being
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Jul 21, 2020 18:17
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Meat is always on the menu for the smart, entrepeneur wolf. Yeah, i dont think vampires are anithing more than bat-like monster. I just feel cheated of a "what is a man?a miserable pile of secrets" quote.
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Jul 21, 2020 18:24
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Shibawanko posted:i dont think the vala-maia-elves-humans categories were ever intended to cover every living being I kinda like to imagine Eru just sort of absentmindedly humming and singing nonsense about trees or rocks, and little spirits just pop into existence and wander down into Arda.
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Jul 21, 2020 18:24
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What about giants? Giants seem to exist in the Hobbit but aren't mentioned afterwards. Gandalf even mentions possibly enlisting the help of a friendly giant to block up some of the cave entrances the Goblins use to cause mischief. Beorn is also kinda weird too since he's not a spirit. He grows old and dies, and he has kids. But changing into a bear is a weird rear end trick that would seem...spiritual in origin. So Beorn must have something weird in his bloodline somewhere that gives his line that ability.
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Jul 21, 2020 19:11
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I’ll be honest; my favorite parts of Tolkien lore is probably where things are a bit unclear.
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Jul 21, 2020 20:11
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I like my abomination Spider monstrosity from beyond comprehension who eats trees.
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Jul 21, 2020 20:24
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Data Graham posted:"Fly, you fools" came his last cry out of the depths, and the Fellowship took wing and soared out the East-gate.
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Jul 21, 2020 20:30
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Can you have spoilers in a 65 year old book?
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Jul 21, 2020 21:36
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Runcible Cat posted:Smoother than Beren and Felagund calling themselves Nereb and Dungalef, at least.... OFFICER: Lieutenant! Why is the regimental radio broken!? TOLKIEN: It wasn't me, sir! It was, um- Neiklot! Yeah!
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Jul 21, 2020 22:51
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Nessus posted:I think this is in turn a tongue in cheek way to address the common complaint of Why Didn't They Just Take The Eagles *cinema sins noise* It was a tongue in cheek way to address it but then people took it seriously. This is why "the eagles were a coverup to avoid admitting they were ransomed by orcs" is better.
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Jul 21, 2020 23:29
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reignonyourparade posted:It was a tongue in cheek way to address it but then people took it seriously.
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Jul 22, 2020 00:05
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Nessus posted:I never heard that one, is there an official nerd theory post on it? I'm imagining something like 'some orc and his bros find the two of them laying on the hill outside the volcano, sell them to Aragorn for either a chest of jewels or a square mile on the coast of Nurn' Basically, though somewhat more extensive than that, that MOST of the mentions of the eagles outside of the vicinity of the Misty Mountains are actually about orcs. It's from this Elise the Great in this very thread.
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Jul 22, 2020 08:34
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Stupid sexy Entwives https://twitter.com/pintswithjack/status/1285721301986967552
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Jul 22, 2020 12:39
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Eowyn's witty nom de guerre was Dernhelm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnhelm
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Jul 22, 2020 13:39
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Ginette Reno posted:What about giants? Giants seem to exist in the Hobbit but aren't mentioned afterwards. Gandalf even mentions possibly enlisting the help of a friendly giant to block up some of the cave entrances the Goblins use to cause mischief. Egil's Saga, my favorite of the Icelandic sagas, opens with a description of a guy. Part of the description is that his grandfather was a "bear-sark", (loosely transliterated). Most translations render this as "berserk" but one I have just straight up says "his grandfather was a were-bear". I suspect Beorn comes out of that tradition. Turning into a bear is just a thing Beorn knows how to do. But it's still a kid's story, so not a mean bear, a nice bear who likes hunny.
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Jul 22, 2020 13:47
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