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Specifically as to title companies, and title insurance, I don't think they would be liable for a forgery. Thats what we call an independent tort, and an intentional tort - these kinds of things (assault, battery, fraud) are typically not covered by insurance policies in general, and I know that a title company agrees to investigate every signature on every deed for forgery, and I don't think such a thing would be covered. In the handful of claimed forgery cases I've dealt with, no title insurance policy has ever been brought in.
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Jul 21, 2020 17:07
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A dumb hypothetical: A renter with automatic payments dies and is buried but the payments don't stop and a con man sells the house to a new owner. Every month the original landlord sends the dead renter an email notification to inspect and inspects the house, owner 2 is at work during the inspection but otherwise living in the house permanently. The original owner has sufficient reason to think the renter is uncommunicative but otherwise a good tennant and has no reason to think anything is amiss. After 10-25 years they find out what's going on and take it to court, who gets the house?
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Jul 21, 2020 17:24
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Outrail posted:A dumb hypothetical: A renter with automatic payments dies and is buried but the payments don't stop and a con man sells the house to a new owner. Every month the original landlord sends the dead renter an email notification to inspect and inspects the house, owner 2 is at work during the inspection but otherwise living in the house permanently. The original owner has sufficient reason to think the renter is uncommunicative but otherwise a good tennant and has no reason to think anything is amiss. it depends on the details of the state's adverse possession law, but probably the new owner
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Jul 21, 2020 17:26
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blarzgh posted:Specifically as to title companies, and title insurance, I don't think they would be liable for a forgery. Thats what we call an independent tort, and an intentional tort - these kinds of things (assault, battery, fraud) are typically not covered by insurance policies in general, and I know that a title company agrees to investigate every signature on every deed for forgery, and I don't think such a thing would be covered. So, if I were to want to buy a property, is there a mechanism I can use to guard myself against this?
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Jul 21, 2020 18:05
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Volmarias posted:So, if I were to want to buy a property, is there a mechanism I can use to guard myself against this? Deeds must be notarized; at the closing there is generally a notary who confirms the identity of the signatory to the deed before they sign it. Also, you can safely rely on the fact that of the hundreds of thousands of deeds that get signed by people probably every day, functionally zero of them are forged. I've litigated hundreds of real estate cases - these are all the worst case scenarios - and I've only ever seen 1 true deed forgery, and one alleged forgery which wasn't actually a forgery, so. Don't worry about it.
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Jul 21, 2020 18:13
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Can you tell us about the alleged forgery? How did that work out?
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Jul 21, 2020 18:14
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Outrail posted:Can you tell us about the alleged forgery? How did that work out? Sister was mad that Brother got the house when Daddy died, claimed brother forged Daddy's signature on the deed (executed prior to death as part of a living trust), Sister sued, sister lost. A tale as old as time...
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Jul 21, 2020 18:18
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Not a deed, but I did literally have a case where brother ACTUALLY snuck into blind, deaf, dying mother's hospital room death bed and ACTUALLY held her hand up to a will that he had changed himself to executor on, and ACTUALLY wiggled her hand with a pen limply in it to 'sign' the will.
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Jul 21, 2020 18:20
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blarzgh posted:Deeds must be notarized; at the closing there is generally a notary who confirms the identity of the signatory to the deed before they sign it. So that's interesting to me, because I thought a forged deed was precisely the sort of thing title insurance covered. My understanding is that it's a bit more limited for actual legitimate issues (such as a mechanic's lien that sneaks in right after closing), but if there's a legit problem with the deed then title insurance came through. But what I'm hearing you say is that the notary is the one who would responsible? Logical follow-up: what if the notarization is forged as well? Would the register's office then become responsible for recording a deed that wasn't properly notarized? I understand the chances of this happening are near zero, but it's interesting.
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Jul 21, 2020 18:22
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DaveSauce posted:So that's interesting to me, because I thought a forged deed was precisely the sort of thing title insurance covered. My understanding is that it's a bit more limited for actual legitimate issues (such as a mechanic's lien that sneaks in right after closing), but if there's a legit problem with the deed then title insurance came through. My random non-lawyer guess is that unless the document was altered, whichever notary's stamp or seal was used may have some liability.
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Jul 21, 2020 19:03
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I think you're focused on the idea of "Why might someone BESIDES the rear end in a top hat who forged the document have some liability." but in general its going to be the person who did the bad act that is liable for the consequences of the bad act. No, the recording office would have no liability, and neither would a notary who had their book and stamp stolen.
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Jul 21, 2020 19:32
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So I hopped into a title policy I have on hand to check on the forgery issue, and what I found is this: They contain a blanket provision that their policy applies to all documents which transfer title. What this means is that forged deeds (which as discussed above, are void as a matter of law) fall outside the scope of what the policy covers. So the net result is that the title policy does not cover title defects as a result of forged deeds (or other void instruments), by its express terms. blarzgh fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 19:35
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In the house buying thread, we often tell buyers to purchase their own title insurance policy, separately from the policy buyers are forced to pay for which covers the mortgage lender. Given that the buyer is purchasing their own additional policy, is there any way for them to select a policy which would cover a fraudulent/forged title or deed? Like maybe as an add-on to the policy for a few bucks?
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Jul 21, 2020 19:45
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Volmarias posted:What's the procedure for insurance against fraud? Google "Brooklyn deed scam". That happened to a bunch of homeowners in Brooklyn in the last few years and it's absolutely a clusterfuck trying to figure out what to do and who's responsible for what. Some homeowners are just saying "gently caress it" and walking away if they can manage, it's that complicated (and it sometimes goes hand in hand with foreclosure/preforclosure, so easily preyed upon) Leperflesh posted:In the house buying thread, we often tell buyers to purchase their own title insurance policy, separately from the policy buyers are forced to pay for which covers the mortgage lender. Given that the buyer is purchasing their own additional policy, is there any way for them to select a policy which would cover a fraudulent/forged title or deed? Like maybe as an add-on to the policy for a few bucks? I have had people argue that they don't want the buyers title policy (it's a separate line item on the title bill with the title co. we work with, pretty sure we're talking about the same thing) but we don't even let them opt out. Once we had a cash deal and the buyer didn't even want a title search done! We set him straight, thankfully, but I don't understand why someone spending $750k on a house would argue over a $1k title policy and maybe another ~$400 in search fees, but money doesn't buy sense, so who tf knows. ilysespieces fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 19:46
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Leperflesh posted:In the house buying thread, we often tell buyers to purchase their own title insurance policy, separately from the policy buyers are forced to pay for which covers the mortgage lender. Given that the buyer is purchasing their own additional policy, is there any way for them to select a policy which would cover a fraudulent/forged title or deed? Like maybe as an add-on to the policy for a few bucks? I've never heard of anyone even thinking to ask this question, although I highly doubt that some office salesperson has the authority to alter the standard corporate form insurance policy. I mean, if you get bored and you want to call one and ask, let us know lol.
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Jul 21, 2020 19:55
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Purely theoretical and nope not gonna try that. I figured most all those buyers' policies are interchangeable in language and coverage but who knows?
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Jul 21, 2020 23:00
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blarzgh posted:Not a deed, but I did literally have a case where brother ACTUALLY snuck into blind, deaf, dying mother's hospital room death bed and ACTUALLY held her hand up to a will that he had changed himself to executor on, and ACTUALLY wiggled her hand with a pen limply in it to 'sign' the will. That seems so blatantly illegal and in bad faith I would hope it wrapped up in a matter of days not months/years
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Jul 22, 2020 00:07
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pentyne posted:That seems so blatantly illegal and in bad faith I would hope it wrapped up in a matter of days not months/years Comedy option is if you can't get that fixed without triggering the no contest clause in the will
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Jul 22, 2020 00:19
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If you void a will you void a no contest clause in it too...
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Jul 22, 2020 01:08
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ilysespieces posted:Google "Brooklyn deed scam". That happened to a bunch of homeowners in Brooklyn in the last few years and it's absolutely a clusterfuck trying to figure out what to do and who's responsible for what. Some homeowners are just saying "gently caress it" and walking away if they can manage, it's that complicated (and it sometimes goes hand in hand with foreclosure/preforclosure, so easily preyed upon) As an ignorant buyer I always assumed that it covered fraudulent transfers. If all it covers is mechanic's leans then it's way overpriced. What exactly is a title search if they're not verifying that the guy in the room has valid legal title?
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Jul 22, 2020 02:29
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Leviathan Song posted:As an ignorant buyer I always assumed that it covered fraudulent transfers. If all it covers is mechanic's leans then it's way overpriced. What exactly is a title search if they're not verifying that the guy in the room has valid legal title? Verifying that they have a title that is free of any recorded defects that shows, based on the record, a chain of title leading to the seller. They don’t look beyond the record to investigate if the lien that’s there is valid or not, they just tell you it’s recorded, so why would they be checking whether the transfer that looks proper was valid?
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Jul 22, 2020 02:42
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Kalman posted:Verifying that they have a title that is free of any recorded defects that shows, based on the record, a chain of title leading to the seller. They don’t look beyond the record to investigate if the lien that’s there is valid or not, they just tell you it’s recorded, so why would they be checking whether the transfer that looks proper was valid? Because they're professionals who can access WAY more information than a lay person? I get it, insurance companies don't make money by paying out claims. But to offer a product to protect against an invalid title that covers anything except an invalid title is disingenuous. Why offer a service that says, "yup, we checked and this title is valid* except if it's not?" That's what's confusing me here. An invalid title is an invalid title. Sorry you took on that risk without doing your due diligence, but that's literally what I'm paying you for. Seems to me that someone 4 generations back is way less likely to make a claim on a property than a scammer, especially considering the aforementioned adverse possession.
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Jul 22, 2020 03:05
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JohnCompany posted:If you void a will you void a no contest clause in it too... Works great unless your client takes under the will but not intestacy so you are just trying to scrap the codicil
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Jul 22, 2020 03:07
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Leviathan Song posted:As an ignorant buyer I always assumed that it covered fraudulent transfers. If all it covers is mechanic's leans then it's way overpriced. What exactly is a title search if they're not verifying that the guy in the room has valid legal title? The Brookyln deed scams are different then the people forging deeds and selling them to unsuspecting buyers from what I read. In Brooklyn people are harassed and pressured to sign contracts about their house that turn out to be legal documents transferring ownership. The other stuff mentioned is where people buy a house for a "great deal" and then get blindsided by the real owners showing up and asking them what they are doing. By that point the scammer took the money and has vanished.
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Jul 22, 2020 03:17
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DaveSauce posted:Because they're professionals who can access WAY more information than a lay person? ok, you're getting wrapped up in this notion that the insurance should pay if some third party commits an intentional tort (fraud by forgery). A few things you should understand: 1) Insurance companies don't insure against intentional torts, generally. They insure against negligence. Title companies don't insure you against the frauds of some third party; thats not the service theyre offering. 2) title companies offer to read the deed records and make a determination of what the chain of deeds says the Seller actually owns. Determining the scope of a person's title to property is a layer-cake process. The original land grant was something like 150 years ago in most places, where the State Government said, "Ok, Now I exist and have all this land. Here, John Paul Mountainbeard, have 300 acres of it." Then, JPM gave half away to his brother, and they split it between their grandchildre, who split it between their children, who gave various easements, and who then sold it off and who then had mineral leases on the property, ad infinitum. Now, imagine that one of those deeds was hosed up, and identified the property incorrectly; what happens? Well, all the subsequent deeds and easments are all hosed up, and someone in 2020 buying 10 acres with no easements might ACTUALLY be buying only 8 acres with two easements on it. Title searches go through those histories to confirm that the buyer is getting 10 acres with no easements. They back up their claim with their insurance policy, which says, "If we're wrong about the 10 acres, we will pay you the cash difference." 3) You're also conflating the process of reviewing deeds and legal descriptions with investigating forgeries. Like, they are not the same thing. How in the poo poo is anybody, let alone a title company for $500, supposed to review every single one of the literally hundreds of signatures in every chain of title on every property, review all the hundreds more notary stamps, personally send a private investigator to investigate every one of these supposed signatories and ask them if they signed the deed, and then do a formal handwriting analysis on hundreds more signatures and stamps, and then what do they do for all the dead people who signed many years ago? Thats insane, and absolutely unecessary. A notary public does that job already, and deeds are notarized. I know its pro forma to hate on insurance companies, but its just not justified here.
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Jul 22, 2020 04:38
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blarzgh posted:How in the poo poo is anybody, let alone a title company for $500, supposed to review every single one of the literally hundreds of signatures in every chain of title on every property, review all the hundreds more notary stamps, personally send a private investigator to investigate every one of these supposed signatories and ask them if they signed the deed, and then do a formal handwriting analysis on hundreds more signatures and stamps, and then what do they do for all the dead people who signed many years ago? If it could be effectively investigated we wouldn't need insurance for it. that's literally why people want the insurance. just going "lol sux" and washing their hands of it is WHY people hate insurance companies
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Jul 22, 2020 05:11
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Title insurance is typically presented as insurance against the seller not having proper title, which to most people sounds like it would include a forged invalid title. And it's not at all true that you can't insure against crime, comprehensive auto insurance will pay out for theft, you can insure property against vandalism, health insurance will cover injuries sustained if someone assaults you, etc... There's no practical problem with doing it either. Doing a big case-by-case forgery inspection is obviously dumb, but you don't need to do that to insure it. You just need to have predictable statistics about how often forged titles come up and need to be paid out, which is apparently very low.
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Jul 22, 2020 05:17
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So I have a question about which type of attorney is necessary for what I'm looking for. I live in California. The recent pandemic has left my wife and I wondering what would happen to our kids and our estate if we were both rendered hospital-ridden or dead. We have family and even have a family member we would like to take care of our kids, but they all live on the East Coast and are for the most part incapable of getting to California quickly because of the pandemic and their age. We have family friends that live in the same city as us, and have a sequence of people that would watch our kids in an emergency. But none of this is in writing and we suddenly had the thought that if we both were rendered sick or dead then there would be no way for anyone to know who is supposed to watch the kids, or how they are to be supported. Is there a single attorney that could help us get this set up (both a sequence of custody and guardianship should we be killed, and where our money/death benefits should go)? Is this all estate planning, or is it two different things? Is it possible to write a document that says "These family friends are going to watch my kid, unless they are dead so then it's these family friends, on and on..." until my family can show up to get them?
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Jul 22, 2020 07:17
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blarzgh posted:Sister sued, sister lost. A tort as old as rhyme: "Screw me, I got fleeced ..."
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Jul 22, 2020 12:59
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blarzgh posted:ok, you're getting wrapped up in this notion that the insurance should pay if some third party commits an intentional tort (fraud by forgery). Look I get that "this is the way it is." Yes, insurance contracts have exclusions all the time. I understand that. But I quite simply do not follow how this could be a logical exclusion. I mean, my homeowners insurance covers me if I'm robbed, and my auto insurance covers me if my car is stolen. They pay me, and then they go after the responsible party to recover their money. And this is insurance against future "what ifs" to boot. A title insurance company is literally insuring against past occurrences that, had they any interest, they could investigate and discover. But instead they choose not to. That's my rub. So out of curiosity, through all this, what of the "adverse possession" part of it? You mentioned earlier that this is functionally a "use it or lose it" sort of thing to prevent ancient claims from wreaking havoc. Does that truly wash out any historical title problems? If I buy a property that I don't actually own because of title gently caress-ups, but live there for 20+ years (or whatever local laws say) and otherwise satisfy all the requirements for adverse possession, have I just cleaned up the title and become bullet-proof against Farmer Joe's great grandson? What about the next owner? If I satisfy adverse possession, but a claim isn't made until 2 years after I sell it, is the next owner screwed?
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Jul 22, 2020 13:26
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Ok, you guys aren't getting it. I'll try one last time. "Forgery, Bad!" "Yes!" "How fix?" "Require documents of high import (like deeds) to be notarized! A notary is an agent of the State who certifies the identity of a signatory! This prevents Forgery!" "Yay, fixed!" >>>>> "Hi, I want buy land" "Ok" "Does John Paul Mountainbeard actually own all 100 acres he's selling me?" "I looked, and yes, he does!" "Ok, but what if one of the deeds was forged!?" "Well, they're all notarized, so they can't be!" "I still want you to insure me if one is!" "Well thats not the service I offer. I'm not agreeing to do that extra, redundant work." "But what if they are FORGED??" "I... I just told you we have an entire administrative process for ensuring they're not. I'm not offering to do that work, and if I did it would cost tons more." "gently caress YOU."
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Jul 22, 2020 14:05
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Is there a single attorney that could help us get this set up Edit: just a heads up, most "Estate Planning" attorneys that do ONLY Estate Planning are kinda like Will Mills for old people. You probably want a firm that does Family Law AND Estate Planning. That should also help with keeping the price down. blarzgh fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 14:06
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But what if the notary is in on it, man?! 
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Jul 22, 2020 14:07
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My husband sold his motorcycle to some stupid baby airman whose slightly less dumb big bro was like "my wife is a notary we can just sign it now and she can stamp it" and honestly I have zero doubt that would have happened had we agreed.
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Jul 22, 2020 14:25
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DaveSauce posted:So out of curiosity, through all this, what of the "adverse possession" part of it? You mentioned earlier that this is functionally a "use it or lose it" sort of thing to prevent ancient claims from wreaking havoc. You've basically got it. There are (half a dozen!) three basic levels of Title by Limitations (aka: adverse possession): 5 Years: Defect in Title 10 Years: Color of Title 25 Years: Adverse Possession What "Title by Limitations" actually means is that if you get sued by the person who thinks they are the TRUE owner, you can respond to that suit, as an affirmative defense, that they waited too long to bring their lawsuit. Much like the Statute of Limitations is 4 years for breach of contract (meaning 4 years after you breach a contract, they are out of time to sue you for it), for the various levels of Title by Limitations, they have (3, 4) 5, 10 (15) or 25 years to file their suit to recover their land. Under the 5 year Statute, if there is a defect with the deed, like, something is spelled wrong or some other stuff, AND you have been paying taxes on the land, then once you have had the deed to the property for 5 years, the person claiming they are the Rightful owner is too late to sue to recover it. (Void deeds, like forgeries, don't count under this statute) Under the 10 year statute, if there is ANY document that purports to show you own the property, and it has been on record for 10 years (and once again that document is not the result of a fraud or forgery), and you have been in possession of the property that whole time, the person claiming they are the Rightful owner is too late to sue to recover it. The (15 and) 25 year statute is a little different. This is the true "Adverse Possession" statute. It basically says, "If I build a fence around your land, and sit my fat rear end on your land for 25 years straight, and you do nothing about it, it becomes my land now." The net effect is as you say, after about 25 years, we can presume fence lines, and property boundaries with relative certainty, and without the burden of going back to the grantor. Your last question: DaveSauce posted:What about the next owner? If I satisfy adverse possession, but a claim isn't made until 2 years after I sell it, is the next owner screwed? The answer is 2 parts. First, when the 25 year egg timer dings at that moment you become the owner of the property. Its instant. If you try to sell it to someone else, you have the legal right. (although, they are going to want a deed, and obvs you don't have one because you never got one, but there are ways to fix that that are too complicated for this post.) You become the owner of that property at that moment, and any subsequent owner of the property will have good title to it. In addition, your 25 year statute "tacks" - If you build your fence around your neighbor's flowerbed, and sit there for 15 years, and then sell your land to someone else, fence intact, and THEY also sit on the flowerbed for another 10 years, then the Limitations periods will run consecutively, i.e. the next guy in line gets to add your 15 years to his 10 years for a total of 25! blarzgh fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 14:25
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BonerGhost posted:My husband sold his motorcycle to some stupid baby airman whose slightly less dumb big bro was like "my wife is a notary we can just sign it now and she can stamp it" and honestly I have zero doubt that would have happened had we agreed. Notaries can go to jail for that poo poo, lol
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Jul 22, 2020 14:26
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blarzgh posted:Notaries can go to jail for that poo poo, lol Yeah but that means they have to get caught. Granted it was some dude's impression of his wife's job so there's plenty of room for him to be completely wrong about it, but it's always made me doubt.
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Jul 22, 2020 14:31
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blarzgh posted:Ok, you guys aren't getting it. I'll try one last time. I think the point is if the work is redundant and hardly ever comes up it seems dumb/unfair/sneaky/whatever they don't insure for it since that sort of unforeseeable circumstance that is unreasonably arduous to research is the sort of thing a person getting insurance would expect to be insured for. E: its like the act of God thing. My boat is insured and got hit by lightning and you're not paying out? Yeah there's an act of God clause in there but a regular person is generally going to assume the insurance policy covers things out of their control. Whether or not that's correct is irrelevant, it doesn't make sense to the average person. Outrail fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 14:37
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blarzgh posted:Ok, you guys aren't getting it. I'll try one last time. In rural areas and in earlier times the possibility of a forgery on a deed is like nil I suppose it could happen but it would be “instantly” addressed by the parties to that transaction and would not flow down to secondary and tertiary conveyances
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Jul 22, 2020 14:53
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I mean suppose you are living on your land and a guy comes by and says “hey I own this now here is the deed you signed “ and you never did. That would be resolved then and not 40 years later
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Jul 22, 2020 14:54
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