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I can only assume that the infighting doesn’t do damage because they were afraid you could just zip around the arena, kiting a conga line of demons behind you that proceed to murder each other in the predictable chaos.
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Jul 21, 2020 23:00
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:I can only assume that the infighting doesn’t do damage because they were afraid you could just zip around the arena, kiting a conga line of demons behind you that proceed to murder each other in the predictable chaos.
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Jul 21, 2020 23:12
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:I can only assume that the infighting doesn’t do damage because they were afraid you could just zip around the arena, kiting a conga line of demons behind you that proceed to murder each other in the predictable chaos. But that would have owned so hard. Eternal’s problem is the developers force you to play it the way they want you too, and you are punished if you veer from their strict formula. They should have allowed more of a sandbox. Give the player massive arena battles with tons of weapons, ammo, health lying around with a note that said “go wild and rip and tear as you please”. You wanna stand back and insta snipe every demon? Sure. Wanna jump in, pick a fight with a hell Knight, but an imp gets him and they infight allowing you to instead focus in Pinky? Sure! See a group of zombies? You could melee punch them for health or (since there is enough lying around the arena) just lob a grenade at them and be done with it. Instead im forced to always lob grenades into the mouths of cacodemons, I HAVE to chainsaw all of the zombies for health, I HAVE to snipe the rocket off the top of the spider brains... Solaris 2.0 fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 23:16
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Linguica posted:No! Stop having fun the wrong way! That's not the Fun Zone we tailored!
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Jul 21, 2020 23:23
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al-azad posted:I don't know how you recapture that spirit short of just making a game in the Doom engine. I do wonder sometimes if the psuedo-2D nature of Doom is more of a key aspect than people think. Stuff like not needing to think about height and elevation during combat (or really fine aim at all) makes a huge difference in how Doom feels compared to other shooters. The reduced cognitive overhead of not needing to navigate a fully 3D space at all times might even give it some extra wiggle room to ramp up the intensity in a way Eternal can't. (Reminder that Doom is more or less literally a Gauntlet game rendered through a long game of telephone.)
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Jul 21, 2020 23:32
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Marathon has elevation and aim and is emergently fun in many of the same ways as Doom Quake is full 3D and still has emergent fun Imo the bigger problem is that 90s FPS designers were under no financial pressure to please the player. In fact half the time it felt like the opposite, they were aiming to gently caress the player over to make them buy the hint book or whatever. Eternal feels like the devs were petrified that if something Cool! and Rewarding! and Engaging! wasn’t happening every other second, 90% of the player base would immediately turn off the game and go play something with more perks and unlocks. Ironically the biggest trend in shooters of the last five years, battle royale games, is in large part precisely because it turns out lots of people love unpredictable, chaotic, emergent gameplay in a hostile setting
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Jul 21, 2020 23:47
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John Murdoch posted:I do wonder sometimes if the psuedo-2D nature of Doom is more of a key aspect than people think. Stuff like not needing to think about height and elevation during combat (or really fine aim at all) makes a huge difference in how Doom feels compared to other shooters. The reduced cognitive overhead of not needing to navigate a fully 3D space at all times might even give it some extra wiggle room to ramp up the intensity in a way Eternal can't.
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Jul 21, 2020 23:53
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Linguica posted:Doom's design makes it exceedingly comfy to play. The total lack of vertical aiming means you have one whole less dimension to even worry about when maneuvering / aiming. The combat design is also centered around room-scale encounters more than individual monsters so the gameplay ends up being more about strategic maneuvering and positioning than about an advanced level of technical skill. The fact that there were several noteworthy keyboard-only players shows how relatively undemanding the game is on a strict APM basis. Which is good! Yeah classic Doom combat is basically Smash TV from a first person perspective. I feel like with Doom the simple graphics also make the situation easier to read - a problem I have in a lot of newer FPS games is that the visual fidelity works against them where there is so much detail in everything that it's hard to quickly tell what's an enemy, what's an interactable piece of the environment, and what's just a prop. Doom is a thing where every aspect of it just works well together and makes it very easy for people to pick up even now.
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Jul 22, 2020 00:25
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Doom 2016 is a great game, but it always felt more to me like a high budget Brutal Quake than a logical gameplay continuation of previous Dooms.
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Jul 22, 2020 00:37
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Im just going to blame you people complaining about 15 minutes total of exposition for the over correction of push-button-something-awesome-happens 
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Jul 22, 2020 00:37
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Doom 5 is objectively superior to Doom 4 for me because I've beaten Doom 5 multiple times while I barely squeaked past the finish line of Doom 4. Doom 5 is an extremely liberating game to me, with your movement and arsenal options giving you incredible flexibility in how to approach and engage with encounters as well as how they're designed. To say its just cool down management is to me deeply missing the fun and heart of the game. All that said Classic Doom is fun, but a wholly distinct experience, and I wont disparage someone for preferring that experience given that they are extremely different.
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Jul 22, 2020 01:13
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Barudak posted:To say its just cool down management is to me deeply missing the fun and heart of the game. The cooldown management wasn't the only bit I wasn't a fan of, but it does factor large into my critique of the game. Even in 2016 I barely touched the grenades since they were usually on a cooldown when I did want to use them - which led to me just never using them. It felt like the team took the opposite approach to cooldowns than they did with weapons. With weapons they wanted to prioritize the more unused guns (see their talks about the SSG being used most often), but but doubled down on a mechanic that inherently leads to less usage by adding three more cooldown items (ice grenade, flame belch, chainsaw). Eternal is definitely a more polarizing entry than the others. While managing the cooldowns is fun for some, it wasn't my favorite aspect in 2016 and they leaned harder into that for Eternal.
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Jul 22, 2020 01:53
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Flame Belch may as well not deal damage, its intended to grant armor. The chainsaw works only on fodder enemies and grants ammo (yes yes 3 gas cans you'll never get this casually and is bad design imo). The ice grenade is a health granting stun. Only the regular grenade deals damage, and even then its primary purpose is to again clear out fodder (Say ones in ice or on fire or both) or give breathing room from pursuers by staggering them slightly. The cooldowns are very quick, to the point where you can reliably use them multiple times in a fight so you should be liberal with them when you see good opportunities. They really should be treated like guns with long firing breaks rather than some carefully babysat resource. The ice grenade in particular boosts your gun damage and works on basically everything making it an amazing tool to setup a gun demolishment a Baron of Hell. Something that helps a lot of people is to treat a glory or chainsawkill as a breather moment to scan your grenades and plan your next move. Take that invuln time to plot your next move. Edit: Ill note of course, that everything I wrote above, especially combo moves, is way more inline with a character action game than classic Doom so like you know, thats an unresolveable core design thing.
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Jul 22, 2020 02:05
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I did like Blood Punch, and that's an ability that felt in line with character action games. It's an ability where, by doing stuff, you get a meter that fills up and gives you a super ability. It's predictable, engaging, and provides a reward for demonstrating more skill. Plenty of character action games have similar abilities or meters that charge by way of combos and actions, and that's a way to actually keep a player engaged with a mechanic that's not intended to be used rapidly. Cooldowns don't fit into the character action genre as much, and are more at home in RPG and MOBA games. I'm struggling to think of character action games that work more on cooldowns than direct-action meters, but the mechanic of a cooldown is far more at home in games where thinking tactically is more crucial than twitch reflex skills. People are terrible at telling time - even smaller amounts like seconds - but if the next use of an ability is "kill 3 demons" and you're in a high stress scenario where you're performing dodges and shooting threats and scoping out your next area to move to, that's going to be way easier to judge than trying to track the amount of time since you last used an ability. All that aside, I still don't like what they did to Doomguy's non-Blood Punch fists. Do you know how many times I punched the starter demons and all they did was stagger? It's a glorified slap
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Jul 22, 2020 02:24
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Barudak posted:Flame Belch may as well not deal damage, its intended to grant armor. The chainsaw works only on fodder enemies and grants ammo (yes yes 3 gas cans you'll never get this casually and is bad design imo). The ice grenade is a health granting stun. Only the regular grenade deals damage, and even then its primary purpose is to again clear out fodder (Say ones in ice or on fire or both) or give breathing room from pursuers by staggering them slightly. Maybe you don't understand, we know how the cooldowns work. It's that you have to babysit them because your health, armor, and in case of grenades, ability to counter certain enemies are entirely reliant on you using them immediately when you are able, instead of just being able to shoot guys. It's stupid
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Jul 22, 2020 03:26
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Dieting Hippo posted:All that aside, I still don't like what they did to Doomguy's non-Blood Punch fists. Do you know how many times I punched the starter demons and all they did was stagger? It's a glorified slap If I had to guess playtesters were just punching things very slowly to death/punching instead of chainsawing and the devs went oooooh gently caress and took out the damage so you don't do that. site posted:Maybe you don't understand, we know how the cooldowns work. It's that you have to babysit them because your health, armor, and in case of grenades, ability to counter certain enemies are entirely reliant on you using them immediately when you are able, instead of just being able to shoot guys. It's stupid Nothing is entirely reliant on any piece of equipment. You can beat the entire game never using any of those if you don't want them. Everything can be dealt with multiple ways, even the chorus can be dealt with multiple different guns instead of the obvious heavy shot from the machine gun. None of the equipment overshadows or replaces your guns, they all enable your guns to do more.
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Jul 22, 2020 03:38
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I realized Doom Eternal wasn't for me when they revealed that the Slayer's Testament wasn't demons exaggerating to compensate for being unable to stop one dude with shotgun, but they were in fact total fact about how Doomguy is an invincible ubermensch which not at all what I like about Doomguy. Also the slime that makes you walk slow while you play wack-a-mole with tentacles. No idea how that seemed like a good idea to anyone.
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Jul 22, 2020 03:47
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Barudak posted:Nothing is entirely reliant on any piece of equipment. You can beat the entire game never using any of those if you don't want them. Everything can be dealt with multiple ways, even the chorus can be dealt with multiple different guns instead of the obvious heavy shot from the machine gun. None of the equipment overshadows or replaces your guns, they all enable your guns to do more. In my experience that wasnt true at all but okay. The game very clearly limits your on the ground armor and hp pickups, forcing you to use the flame and chainsaw, to the point where it literally infinite respawns junk mobs for you to use. Cacos and Mancubi have much larger amount of health than they do in og doom for the explicit purpose of having to use grenades to lob down their throats, and the aforementioned snakes are there for you to use ice grenades on. And that's not even getting into loving marauders and the debates I've seen over whether you have to use the properly times SSG or you have to use a properly timed rl. Maybe you don't "have" to use them in that enemies aren't literally invincible to certain things but to pretend that the game doesn't railroad you into certain tactics is laughable site fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 03:57
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site posted:and the aforementioned snakes are there for you to use ice grenades on
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Jul 22, 2020 04:22
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The Kins posted:Someone didn't get the lock-on rocket mod...  I did
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Jul 22, 2020 04:25
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Barudak posted:If I had to guess playtesters were just punching things very slowly to death/punching instead of chainsawing and the devs went oooooh gently caress and took out the damage so you don't do that. (A small aside, I said stagger but I should've used another word that isn't the same as the Stagger state for doing glory kills! Only bringing that up 'cause I'm taking about the actual state now) I played through 2016 on UV/Nightmare, and meleeing Possessed was a great tactic for getting them into a Stagger state. Eternal removes that and makes it so that it's required to shoot them in order to get them into a Stagger state, which I was trying to do for those sweet Blood Punches. The number of times I shot them way too many times, or accidentally headshot them when trying to get them to start flashing, it was rough. That was actually my first surprise while playing, because I fell back into my 2016 playstyle right off the bat and was confused why the Possessed were staggering backwards, but not Staggering. I try a high-tier move right out of the gate and the game told me no 
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Jul 22, 2020 05:46
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John Murdoch posted:I do wonder sometimes if the psuedo-2D nature of Doom is more of a key aspect than people think. Stuff like not needing to think about height and elevation during combat (or really fine aim at all) makes a huge difference in how Doom feels compared to other shooters. The reduced cognitive overhead of not needing to navigate a fully 3D space at all times might even give it some extra wiggle room to ramp up the intensity in a way Eternal can't. Hey I play Doom nowadays with freelook and autoaim turned off. I'm a heretic yeah.
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Jul 22, 2020 09:11
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I mean, yea. It plays like robotron 2020 if you think about it. Making it a twin stick shooter would make as much sense as making it a free-look style fps. I also play with mlook and whatnot, but it does nothing to the game-play.
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Jul 22, 2020 09:31
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I play* with keyboard only and get my poo poo wrecked in WAD club. *played, RIP computer
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Jul 22, 2020 10:23
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Noclip made an 11-minute video where the lead dev talks about the troubles of the System Shock remaster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE97vZLC_fA I admire the guy's perseverance. It seems like he's still plugging away at working out the NOLF rights, which I would never have had the patience for.
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Jul 22, 2020 13:49
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for me the things that makes doom 2016 not doom are two specific issues, level design and gated encounters. i know people love the arena thing, i think it's neat that the arenas are designed kinda like Q3A maps, but if I wanted to play painkiller or serious sam, i'd play those games. i like to run and also gun, i don't like a thing stopping me from advancing, i like to blast and keep moving. the level design is the real problem, especially in the back half, where levels turn practically into that thi4f map comparison meme. i think its odd that project warlock's levels came closer to what i expect out of a doom game and that game wasn't even trying to be like doom. there are actually a couple of early D16 levels that are pretty great, and i had a really high opinion of the game until the last several hours and it came crashing down for me
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Jul 22, 2020 13:55
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Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal both have at least one map (Foundry and Super Gore Nest, respectively) that showed that id knew perfectly well how to make a "real" Doom level, they just mostly chose not to (??)
Linguica fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 13:58
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Linguica posted:Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal both have at least one map (Foundry and Super Gore Nest, respectively) that showed that id knew perfectly well how to make a "real" Doom level, they just mostly chose not to (??) Both of those levels were made by the same person, so its one dude at iD specifically.
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Jul 22, 2020 14:13
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I was a pretty big fan of Eternal's weird combat-chess stuff, it was a nice way to differentiate itself from both the old games and the rest of the retro FPS throwbacks out there - fans of which are currently very well served as it is, either by mods or new indie titles, so why not play around a bit? Speaking of old FPSes, GOG has a ton of retro FPS and retro-FPS-themed (fauxtro FPS?) goodies on sale at the moment: They just kicked off a 48-hour midweek sale on multiplayer-friendly games that includes FEAR 1 and 2, Overload, Serious Sam 1, UT99 and 2004, ROTT and SiN, and this week's weekly sale includes Dusk and Amid Evil.
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Jul 22, 2020 14:47
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Foundry is literally the level that sold me the the game, as the demo ran for the first two levels and seemed nice, so I used steam's 2 hour refund policy to check out the next level and was blown away by how loving on point it was.
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Jul 22, 2020 14:48
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The 7th Guest posted:for me the things that makes doom 2016 not doom are two specific issues, level design and gated encounters. i know people love the arena thing, i think it's neat that the arenas are designed kinda like Q3A maps, but if I wanted to play painkiller or serious sam, i'd play those games. i like to run and also gun, i don't like a thing stopping me from advancing, i like to blast and keep moving. Don't forget about too many bespoke unlock systems. And I'm saying this as someone who is a complete sucker for unlock systems! Not only do they not fit Doom, they're not even particularly well thought out for 2016 itself.
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Jul 22, 2020 16:04
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John Murdoch posted:I do wonder sometimes if the psuedo-2D nature of Doom is more of a key aspect than people think. Stuff like not needing to think about height and elevation during combat (or really fine aim at all) makes a huge difference in how Doom feels compared to other shooters. The reduced cognitive overhead of not needing to navigate a fully 3D space at all times might even give it some extra wiggle room to ramp up the intensity in a way Eternal can't. I will always maintain that if you're making a true Doom sequel, having a jump button is mistake. Doom is not about jumping. That's Quake. It's also why Amid Evil isn't "like Heretic", it's just Quake with a fantasy aesthetic - it's way too jumpy. Even Hexen is defined by jump being a puzzle solving and traversal tool, but in a fight, it was (very fast, almost no momentum) ground movement all the way. The lack of combat jumping is what makes the Doom combat dance work in the first place.
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Jul 22, 2020 19:58
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I’m increasingly convinced that Doom Eternal demonstrates that 2016 was something of a fluke. When 2016 came out, a lot of us (everyone?) were like “id actually understands what Doom is and why it is”. Slim plot, badass angry main character who wants to kill demons, lots of gore, and engaging and difficult combat. But in the back of my mind there was always this worry that 2016 was a fluke that came about due to the troubles they had getting 2016 out the door. And that ended up being true. Now, mind, I still enjoyed Eternal a lot. But the heavy emphasis on terrible storytelling, the making Doom guy some sort of ancient angel killer thing, the multiple cool downs and arena combat, the continued reliance on locked down levels... it’s taking the bad parts of 2016 and making them worse (or just creating new bad parts). It DOES seem like there are individual people at id who understand what makes Doom special, but I’m pretty convinced that they’re not the people who are making decisions about the direction of the product. And it’s a shame, because I think with a slightly better understanding of what make Doom Doom, Eternal could have been exceptional. It just ended up being... not exceptional. I still think it has some of the best FPS combat that exists, I just wish they could go back and revisit Doom OG or something. They’re increasingly missing the mark and it makes me deeply concerned for Doom 2024 or whatever.
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Jul 22, 2020 20:02
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Pathos posted:I’m increasingly convinced that Doom Eternal demonstrates that 2016 was something of a fluke. I feel like one of the things that trips up a lot of modern game devs about trying to recapture Doom is that Doom is extremely simple and any attempt to faithfully recreate it makes devs feel like the game they're making is too simple. The thing is that Doom's simplicity is what gave it its longevity, because it's not the mechanics that made it last so long, it's the community. Making a level in a modern game is really complicated and requires a whole team of people - making a level in Doom is very easy for one person to do and is barely more complex than if you were to just literally doodle a maze on a piece of paper. Sure making a good level is a bit more complex than that, but the low barrier to entry means that you get tons of people making custom content and talking about and playing the game for decades after it came out.
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Jul 22, 2020 20:17
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I feel like one of the things that trips up a lot of modern game devs about trying to recapture Doom is that Doom is extremely simple and any attempt to faithfully recreate it makes devs feel like the game they're making is too simple. The thing is that Doom's simplicity is what gave it its longevity, because it's not the mechanics that made it last so long, it's the community. Making a level in a modern game is really complicated and requires a whole team of people - making a level in Doom is very easy for one person to do and is barely more complex than if you were to just literally doodle a maze on a piece of paper. Sure making a good level is a bit more complex than that, but the low barrier to entry means that you get tons of people making custom content and talking about and playing the game for decades after it came out. I agree, though I do think that the earlier discussion about monster infighting is one of the most illuminating features of what’s wrong with Eternal. If you asked any Doom fan what makes Doom Doomy, you’d get infighting, sprawling levels with secrets, and intense combat near the top. Eternal only manages sprawling Doom-like levels a few times, and really only excels at the combat. They excised things that are core to the Doom experience and replaced them with things that are either just bad or, even worse, with things that run counter to what Doom should be. Eternal is, I think, a presage of bad things to come. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t think I am.
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Jul 22, 2020 20:28
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The Kins posted:Speaking of old FPSes, GOG has a ton of retro FPS and retro-FPS-themed (fauxtro FPS?) goodies on sale at the moment: They just kicked off a 48-hour midweek sale on multiplayer-friendly games that includes FEAR 1 and 2, Overload, Serious Sam 1, UT99 and 2004, ROTT and SiN, and this week's weekly sale includes Dusk and Amid Evil. Took advantage of this to finally grab Dusk. Not sure when I'll get to it, possibly after I sit down and finish either Thief, Undying, or SiN, or maybe when I get bored. Also grabbed Iron Storm and Rune. What's the ideal way to play Rune now? On GOG you get two different versions.
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Jul 22, 2020 20:42
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I feel like one of the things that trips up a lot of modern game devs about trying to recapture Doom is that Doom is extremely simple and any attempt to faithfully recreate it makes devs feel like the game they're making is too simple. Linguica fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jul 23, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 21:07
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catlord posted:Took advantage of this to finally grab Dusk. Not sure when I'll get to it, possibly after I sit down and finish either Thief, Undying, or SiN, or maybe when I get bored. DUSK is loving incredible. I musta played through it five times by now. The Cheshire Cat posted:I feel like one of the things that trips up a lot of modern game devs about trying to recapture Doom is that Doom is extremely simple and any attempt to faithfully recreate it makes devs feel like the game they're making is too simple. Like John Murdoch said gun unlocks are fine but it's not a DOOM thing and it's one of a bunch of things that struck me as being added like you said because they were worried the game'd be too simple. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jul 22, 2020 |
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Jul 22, 2020 21:20
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I’m really looking forward to Dusk on Switch. Especially if it has gyro aiming.
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Jul 22, 2020 21:24
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You guys got an updated link to the discord? I just got ultimate doom on steam and i wish to mod it and shoot things.
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Jul 22, 2020 22:47
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