Parmenides posted:

Let's steer this back to antiquity. Is there a consensus here on which of the Hellenic peoples was best? I'm talking late 6th, 5th, and early-mid 4th century.

I think we can immediately narrow the race down to two front-runners: Ionians and Dorians. The Achaeans were too insignificant to merit attention, and the Aeolians sadly had their reputation ruined beyond redemption by T****s.

Focusing on Dorians and Ionians, I'm inclined to say that the Dorians should be the favourite. I'd like some input from you guys, though. It's tough to say what makes a people "best"; perhaps we should only focus on individual city-states and leagues for this period. However, here's a general analysis:

Dorians:

- Solid reputation as a brave and reliable people.
- Formed the most powerful city-states and essentially preserved/led the Hellenic world.
- Greatest metaphysical thinkers (Elea is Dorian by Phocaia -> Phocis. Eleatic Philosophers had the best metaphysics.)
- Best Generals (Spartan generals were desired throughout the known world and were the cause of many stunning reversals/victories)
- Best Admirals (Melissus by way of association with Eleatics, and his home state of Samos was associated with Epidauros. Syracuse and Sparta led navies that smashed Athens')
- Most diverse range of city-states; if you love Athens then you can probably make do with places like Syracuse or Corinth. If you love the utopian world of Sparta, though... substitution is probably impossible, but any alternative involves Dorians (Crete).
- By extension, the above point about diversity suggests that they had the most broad-minded law-givers/political theory guys.

Let us also not forget that there was a time when Sparta (Dorians) held the Hellenic world in the palm of her hand, and the Spartans could have genocided the centre of Ionian civilization (Athens). In fact, many city-states begged them to do so. However, in an ultimate act of noble grace and charity, Sparta spared the Athenians. For this reason, everyone who loves the work of people like Plato should maintain a small shrine to Sparta and give regular thanks. Only through the wisdom and consistency of the Spartan people was Athens (and the Hellenic world generally) able to survive and flourish.

skasion posted:

Pizarro got smoked in his own house by the mestizo son of a man he betrayed and killed over the spoils of their ravages, hard to get more consequential than that

Jeb Bush 2012 posted:

I guess that's a bad sign for the "best pre-historic hominid species" bracket then

Arglebargle III posted:

source your quotes if you want us to laugh at them

quote:

also I think that Corinthian hoplite should be wearing a different shade of red

Arglebargle III posted:

is this some sort of elaborate troll?

Edgar Allen Ho posted:

The best hellenics were clearly the Byzantines.

Parmenides posted:

Let's steer this back to antiquity. Is there a consensus here on which of the Hellenic peoples was best? I'm talking late 6th, 5th, and early-mid 4th century.

I think we can immediately narrow the race down to two front-runners: Ionians and Dorians. The Achaeans were too insignificant to merit attention, and the Aeolians sadly had their reputation ruined beyond redemption by T****s.

Focusing on Dorians and Ionians, I'm inclined to say that the Dorians should be the favourite. I'd like some input from you guys, though. It's tough to say what makes a people "best"; perhaps we should only focus on individual city-states and leagues for this period. However, here's a general analysis:

Dorians:

- Solid reputation as a brave and reliable people.
- Formed the most powerful city-states and essentially preserved/led the Hellenic world.
- Greatest metaphysical thinkers (Elea is Dorian by Phocaia -> Phocis. Eleatic Philosophers had the best metaphysics.)
- Best Generals (Spartan generals were desired throughout the known world and were the cause of many stunning reversals/victories)
- Best Admirals (Melissus by way of association with Eleatics, and his home state of Samos was associated with Epidauros. Syracuse and Sparta led navies that smashed Athens')
- Most diverse range of city-states; if you love Athens then you can probably make do with places like Syracuse or Corinth. If you love the utopian world of Sparta, though... substitution is probably impossible, but any alternative involves Dorians (Crete).
- By extension, the above point about diversity suggests that they had the most broad-minded law-givers/political theory guys.

Let us also not forget that there was a time when Sparta (Dorians) held the Hellenic world in the palm of her hand, and the Spartans could have genocided the centre of Ionian civilization (Athens). In fact, many city-states begged them to do so. However, in an ultimate act of noble grace and charity, Sparta spared the Athenians. For this reason, everyone who loves the work of people like Plato should maintain a small shrine to Sparta and give regular thanks. Only through the wisdom and consistency of the Spartan people was Athens (and the Hellenic world generally) able to survive and flourish.

Fly Molo posted:

They were dumb inbred slaveowning tyrants whose biggest military successes were only enabled by underhanded backstabbing and child murder, OP. They were garbage hypocrites, and the Romans reducing Sparta to a period theme park for drunken tourists was just one of their great accomplishments.

Fly Molo posted:

They were dumb inbred slaveowning tyrants whose biggest military successes were only enabled by underhanded backstabbing and child murder, OP. They were garbage hypocrites, and the Romans reducing Sparta to a period theme park for drunken tourists was just one of their great accomplishments.

Parmenides posted:

Sparta was an extremely high-tier society. This is reflected not only by their achievements, but also by the way that even rival cities were full of Laconisers. The average Spartan citizen had a much better understanding of classical antiquity than anyone in this thread.

Parmenides posted:

Sparta was an extremely high-tier society. This is reflected not only by their achievements, but also by the way that even rival cities were full of Laconisers. The average Spartan citizen had a much better understanding of classical antiquity than anyone in this thread.

Parmenides posted:

SlothfulCobra posted:

The scottish are definitely one of the highest tiers. That's why they're called highlanders.

Parmenides posted:

Are you talking about the Dorians as a whole, or just Sparta? It sounds like the latter, but your post is complete nonsense so it's hard to tell. There was a Hellenic city whose citizens were notorious for being dumb, underhanded, and dissolute sex offenders, but they weren't Dorians.

If you want to form an opinion of Sparta, you need to read more than just Plutarch's Memes. "Underhand backstabbing and child murder" were not the means by which Sparta established and maintained their impressive society. They weren't "dumb" or "inbred", and their society featured a certain type of slavery that didn't involve large-scale private ownership of labourers. That said, if you have a problem with slavery then you will need to explain your position in more detail, because having different social classes and economic/legal relationships is a feature of every society of note.

Sparta was an extremely high-tier society. This is reflected not only by their achievements, but also by the way that even rival cities were full of Laconisers. The average Spartan citizen had a much better understanding of classical antiquity than anyone in this thread.

cheetah7071 posted:

quick someone do a tier list

Nessus posted:

S Tier: Every historical society I personally liked, except for
A Tier: The ones that did a little light genocide/slavetaking
B Tier: Allies of above
C Tier: Long-term enemies of above
D Tier: Defeated enemies of above
E Tier: English

cheetah7071 posted:

so I guess no societies are S tier

shame but time for humanity to make room for a species with S tier capabilities

galagazombie posted:

Was there ever really any way for the natives of the Americas to not get wiped out? 90+% of them got wiped out by disease without even being aware that White people existed. Even in a perfect world where the Europeans hadn't been genocidal colonizers and instead been pacifist hippies I really don't see how the Native Civilizations could have lasted. Hell even the worst plagues in all of Eurasian history never came close to that level. 1491 has this chapter about the first settlers in North America marveling at all this empty land and wondering why the nearby tribes hadn't settled it, when what they didn't realize was that they had, just that they had all died over the decade or so before they arrived, because the Feral Pigs and Trade Routes had already given them all smallpox and similar.

Parmenides posted:

The average Spartan citizen had a much better understanding of classical antiquity than anyone in this thread.

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

No, seriously, who the gently caress's gimmick re-reg are you?

Fly Molo posted:

lol @ all of this, just lol. Oh for sure, declaring war on your slaves every year is surely the hallmark of an Extremely High-Tier Society. Keep posting, you’re almost there.

Fly Molo posted:

The only hypothetical S-tier society would be one led by the wisest philosopher of antiquity: Diogenes.

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

The best Greeks were the ones who lived in the bright, gentle, civilizing glow of the Persian Empire. Asia Minor was where all the real wealth and cities were and true civilization was to be found. Who gives a poo poo about few ragged, bloodthirsty semibarbarians clinging precariously to a craggy infertile peninsula, gnawing at each other over scraps??

Jazerus posted:

thebes Thebes THEBES