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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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As someone who is generally optimistic about most progressive endeavors someday winning out in the end, I'm pretty pessimistic about short-term change to our two party system unless it was institutional. It doesn't matter if you have a new party that's more progressive, if they're mostly feeding off of Democrats. A world where national politics become 25% Progressive, 35% Moderate Liberal, and 40% Big Tent Conservatism is a hellworld.
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Jul 24, 2020 13:59
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Even if you think that the long term threat of SuccDemmery is in fact a greater evil than the evil of a Trump reelection, the leftist bloc refusing to participate isn't going to accomplish anything. I mean, noones telling anyone not to push for things. Push all you want! But ultimately your vote is a zero sum game, and refusing to vote Biden just continues to discredit leftism electorally. Disliking that the left doesn't have options doesn't make more options appear Considering that the Dems are basically using this year as a litmus test on how blatantly they can tell the left to gently caress off and still win, I don't see how participating is going to accomplish anything either. They've made it very clear the plan is to act like they've won without or in spite of the left if they win, and that if they lose it's the left's fault.
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Jul 24, 2020 14:22
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Folks, I'm not sure if anyone has seen this but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjoo-74ain4 Turns out Howie Hawkins was prepared to turn over the Green Party nomination to noted rapist and fascist enabler Bernie Sanders! Did he not know then? About the rape? There seem to be an awful lot of rapists and rapist-enablers running for office this year. Who are the people voting for these monsters? I mean, surely there can be no compromise when it comes to voting for a rapist? This thread sure is full of some hot takes. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 24, 2020 14:25
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unemployed posted:Folks, I'm not sure if anyone has seen this but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjoo-74ain4 Lol cry more little baby. Honest question though - do you not believe Tara Reade? Or do you believe her and still not see why some people are unwilling to vote for Biden and upset that the politicians they like have endorsed him?
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Jul 24, 2020 14:30
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Jimbozig posted:Lol cry more little baby. I honestly don't care who people plan to vote for, my point is that pretending you can pick a candidate without compromise is impossible and crucifying those who are willing to make compromises that you aren't is not a winning strategy.
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Jul 24, 2020 14:41
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unemployed posted:I honestly don't care who people plan to vote for, my point is that pretending you can pick a candidate without compromise is impossible and crucifying those who are willing to make compromises that you aren't is not a winning strategy. Nobody is crucifying Bernie Sanders. You are just pretending like we are so you can imagine us to be unreasonable. Probably because you have a shred of conscience somewhere that you're trying to drown out.
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Jul 24, 2020 14:46
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Jimbozig posted:Nobody is crucifying Bernie Sanders. You are just pretending like we are so you can imagine us to be unreasonable. Probably because you have a shred of conscience somewhere that you're trying to drown out. I was actually talking about anyone planning on voting for Biden. And Biden voters absolutely have been crucified in this thread.
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Jul 24, 2020 14:50
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unemployed posted:I honestly don't care who people plan to vote for, my point is that pretending you can pick a candidate without compromise is impossible and crucifying those who are willing to make compromises that you aren't is not a winning strategy. No, you actually care quite alot, but anyways, Noone is trying to pick a perfect candidate that does everything they want, because that candidate isn't real, especially not in Howie Hawkins, The New Arbiter of Leftist Thought or whoever you think he is. There's always going to be some compromise in who you vote for, some people just choose to compromise less than you do.
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Jul 24, 2020 14:52
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If you love compromise so much, we could all just compromise on Donald Trump. Honestly, it would probably be easier to push him towards Medicare for all than it would be to push Biden into it, assuming you could get close to him. But no, we won't compromise with fascists or rapists. There are some lines you don't cross.
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Jul 24, 2020 14:58
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Even if you think that the long term threat of SuccDemmery is in fact a greater evil than the evil of a Trump reelection, the leftist bloc refusing to participate isn't going to accomplish anything. I mean, noones telling anyone not to push for things. Push all you want! But ultimately your vote is a zero sum game, and refusing to vote Biden just continues to discredit leftism electorally. Disliking that the left doesn't have options doesn't make more options appear. Once again for the people in the back: the left is participating; many of us are just not voting for Biden. Voting third party is not the same as "not participating". My vote doesn't come cheap or by default; you have to earn it, just as you earn my friendship, trust, etc.
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Jul 24, 2020 15:00
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unemployed posted:Folks, I'm not sure if anyone has seen this but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjoo-74ain4 This is a pretty lovely and stupid troll, but by its own logic, Howie Hawkins was making this offer to Bernie on April 3rd, while Bernie would not endorse Joe Biden for another two weeks. But also, you go on that voting for a candidate who's uncompromised is impossible and applying that to an accusation of rape, and... you realize you're literally mirroring the arguments for Kavanaugh and Trump, right? That the plight of the unborn, or the need for a conservative SCOTUS just usurps any moral conversation whatsoever, something that we all not only ridiculed but rightfully retched at... and one you're now making for Biden. I love all the "when they go low, we go high" of the Democratic Party get thrown away not for actual values but for the chance to vote for someone as repugnant at large as Trump is. Nothing quite like doing harm reduction arguments for the guy who's swearing he'll get entangled in Venezuela.
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Jul 24, 2020 15:06
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unemployed posted:This thread sure is full of some hot takes. "Demanding that your candidates not rape anybody is an impossible purity test" sure is a hot take, agreed. TheDeadlyShoe posted:The analogy wasn't about the election. It is a horrible analogy for US politics, you folks are right. The problem with appeals to unity is that those appeals are always completely one sided. Where was the unity from the centrists when people were calling Omar an anti-semite? Where's the unity when the centrists start blacklisting progressive challengers to moderate Dems while they handwave a Kennedy trying to unseat a Dem to his left in Massachusetts? What about when Obama camp said that the one situation that would bring him into the race was a Bernie Sanders nomination? He was apparently fine with Bloomberg but Bernie was an existential threat! For the centrists, the left is the external threat and the right are the buddies who they want to come to terms with, so acting like the problem is that I'm just not being realistic or not trying hard enough while the centrists repeatedly tell me to get hosed is a bit unfair.
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Jul 24, 2020 15:23
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Vote for Virgil Goode.
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Jul 24, 2020 15:40
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Wicked Them Beats posted:The problem with appeals to unity is that those appeals are always completely one sided. Where was the unity from the centrists when people were calling Omar an anti-semite? Where's the unity when the centrists start blacklisting progressive challengers to moderate Dems while they handwave a Kennedy trying to unseat a Dem to his left in Massachusetts? What about when Obama camp said that the one situation that would bring him into the race was a Bernie Sanders nomination? He was apparently fine with Bloomberg but Bernie was an existential threat! For the centrists, the left is the external threat and the right are the buddies who they want to come to terms with, so acting like the problem is that I'm just not being realistic or not trying hard enough while the centrists repeatedly tell me to get hosed is a bit unfair. Unity isn't for primary elections. Except in the sense of not giving your enemies ammo during the GE, and/or in trying to tamp down the monetary arms race. It is general elections, specifically, that are the time for unity. The calls are one sided because the argument is almost always miffed leftists not wanting to vote for moderates. Leftists don't usually need it because they run in deep blue districts.
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Jul 24, 2020 16:19
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Unity isn't for primary elections. Except in the sense of not giving your enemies ammo during the GE, and/or in trying to tamp down the monetary arms race. Explain the Liberals shrieking and hollering that the time for Unity was the instant that Bernie stopped being the front-runner. The loving picosecond that Joe had so much as one delegate more than Sanders, it became "Game over, everyone fall in line behind Joe, wanting to let everyone else in the country vote only draws out the primary and makes Biden spend money he could be using to campaign in the general, quit being selfish!"
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Jul 24, 2020 16:53
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I'm curious why we're expected to unify behind a party that thinks that we need to demonstrate our loyalty to them before we're recognized as "mattering". This is why I say that votes should be earned, and not just given by default. That's what is one sided about calls for unity: the party takes us for granted, yells that we're "irrelevant" and scolds us for not wanting to vote for their candidate. But we're expected to remain loyal Democrats through all of this because "the other guy is worse!". It's not "smart politics" but arrogance.
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Jul 24, 2020 16:59
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I'm curious why we're expected to unify behind a party that thinks that we need to demonstrate our loyalty to them before we're recognized as "mattering". This is why I say that votes should be earned, and not just given by default. Is it "smart politics" to pillory left-leaning people who voted for Bernie, want M4A, UBI, police defunding etc. and are now voting for Biden understanding that it is a compromise based on their belief that a Biden loss will lead to catastrophe in the near future? Edit: Because that is exactly what is happening in this thread.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:06
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unemployed posted:Is it "smart politics" to pillory left-leaning people who voted for Bernie, want M4A, UBI, police defunding etc. and are now voting for Biden understanding that it is a compromise based on their belief that a Biden loss will lead to catastrophe in the near future? I don't recall pillorying you, but giving away your loyalty to a party for nothing doesn't seem all that smart, no. e: It'd be helpful if Biden supporters, however reluctant, didn't nail themselves to a cross. Nobody is entitled to your vote; you have a choice in whom you want to support. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 17:07
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unemployed posted:Is it "smart politics" to pillory left-leaning people who voted for Bernie, want M4A, UBI, police defunding etc. and are now voting for Biden understanding that it is a compromise based on their belief that a Biden loss will lead to catastrophe in the near future? sure it is, what else are they gonna do - vote Trump? please tell me you see the irony in this
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Jul 24, 2020 17:08
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You'd think if Biden were really just as much of an existential threat as Trump, there'd be more talk of expatriation. Obviously many people can't, but it's strange that it just doesn't come up.Excelzior posted:sure it is, what else are they gonna do - vote Trump? This logic only works if all the people being pilloried previously berated leftists for not voting for Biden. Otherwise you're just taking things out on people for no good reason. Flying-PCP fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 17:08
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unemployed posted:Is it "smart politics" to pillory left-leaning people who voted for Bernie, want M4A, UBI, police defunding etc. and are now voting for Biden understanding that it is a compromise based on their belief that a Biden loss will lead to catastrophe in the near future? F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I don't recall pillorying you, but giving away your loyalty to a party for nothing doesn't seem all that smart, no. ...
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Jul 24, 2020 17:10
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What point is this trying to make? A vote in exchange for no UBI, no college debt cancellation, no M4A, and no GND doesn't seem equitable to me.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:11
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The threshold at which a concession stops being "nothing" is too drat high. There seems to be the idea that because Democrats suck rear end at negotiation, negotiation must be For Losers in general.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:16
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Flying-PCP posted:You'd think if Biden were really just as much of an existential threat as Trump, there'd be more talk of expatriation. Obviously many people can't, but it's strange that it just doesn't come up. Ignoring the whole "I have a family" complication, that is just economically not an available option at all for most people. For the most part, we are trapped here.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:17
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:What point is this trying to make? A vote in exchange for no UBI, no college debt cancellation, no M4A, and no GND doesn't seem equitable to me. It's a vote in exchange for avoiding a potential civil war at worst, more needless covid deaths etc. at best. To pretend that you can't even imagine the possibility that someone might have reasons to vote for Biden other than their undying love for him and/or the Democratic party is the real problem here. You'll also note that at no point have I suggested that anyone should change their vote or made fun of wanting to vote for a third party in a two-party system. I completely agree with everyone that you should vote your conscience because I trust the desired end-goals of most of the posters here (except the 'actually dictators are cool and good' guy. gently caress him.)
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Jul 24, 2020 17:19
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Flying-PCP posted:The threshold at which a concession stops being "nothing" is too drat high. There seems to be the idea that because Democrats suck rear end at negotiation, negotiation must be For Losers in general. That isn't what I said. By "nothing" I mean that the Democrats get everything they want from us - our votes - with little or no effort on their parts. All they have to do is just scold that the other guy is bad and maybe throw a few crumbs, and the left will just come crawling back to them out of fear. I've said it before and will say it again: the problems we face are existential, too important to tinker around the edges. If they're not willing to make all the things I mentioned campaign priorities, I'm not willing to vote for them. My vote doesn't come cheap.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:20
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Flying-PCP posted:You'd think if Biden were really just as much of an existential threat as Trump, there'd be more talk of expatriation. Obviously many people can't, but it's strange that it just doesn't come up. Well I tried moving to Venezuela, and Libya, and Syria, and literally anywhere in South America, but wouldn't you know it, somebody kept destroying those countries making them unfit to live in
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Jul 24, 2020 17:20
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unemployed posted:It's a vote in exchange for avoiding a potential civil war at worst, more needless covid deaths etc. at best. To pretend that you can't even imagine the possibility that someone might have reasons to vote for Biden other than their undying love for him and/or the Democratic party is the real problem here. Not sure where this is coming from? I never said that there aren't reasons to vote for Biden. I just don't think that fear of the other guy is a good reason, especially when Biden promises us little or none of the change we need.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:22
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Not sure where this is coming from? I never said that there aren't reasons to vote for Biden. I just don't think that fear of the other guy is a good reason, especially when Biden promises us little or none of the change we need. Most of my comments aren't directed at you specifically, they're at the general trend in this thread for certain posters to refuse to acknowledge that there may in fact be reasons to vote for Biden and doing so probably doesn't make you a monster without a conscience. Maybe that's a strawman and nobody in this thread is actually implying that? Do you agree that someone who is left-leaning could in fact vote for Biden and be able to live with themselves afterwards?
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Jul 24, 2020 17:26
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Flying-PCP posted:You'd think if Biden were really just as much of an existential threat as Trump, there'd be more talk of expatriation. Obviously many people can't, but it's strange that it just doesn't come up. love to smugly answer my own question in an attempt to own the left
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Jul 24, 2020 17:27
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Terror Sweat posted:Well I tried moving to Venezuela, and Libya, and Syria, and literally anywhere in South America, but wouldn't you know it, somebody kept destroying those countries making them unfit to live in There's also the fact that nobody will let us in right now, forgot about that for a sec.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:32
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:That isn't what I said. By "nothing" I mean that the Democrats get everything they want from us - our votes - with little or no effort on their parts. All they have to do is just scold that the other guy is bad and maybe throw a few crumbs, and the left will just come crawling back to them out of fear. Then don't make your vote free. Give them hell along with it. Protest, organize, fundraise and canvass for primary opponents. Make sure that your vote is only part of the package deal and that it comes with busting their balls.
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Jul 24, 2020 17:41
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unemployed posted:Most of my comments aren't directed at you specifically, they're at the general trend in this thread for certain posters to refuse to acknowledge that there may in fact be reasons to vote for Biden and doing so probably doesn't make you a monster without a conscience. Maybe that's a strawman and nobody in this thread is actually implying that? Do you agree that someone who is left-leaning could in fact vote for Biden and be able to live with themselves afterwards? Eh. I don't know. I'm not here to lecture people about their voting as I've been lectured. But I have a strong feeling that if your vote doesn't come with major concessions extracted from the party, and a real sense that they will entertain ideas like the GND, M4A, a UBI, etc; then it's being given away for free. But I do feel as though the NoJoe and Pro-Joe factions have a tendency to talk past the other sometimes. volts5000 posted:Then don't make your vote free. Give them hell along with it. Protest, organize, fundraise and canvass for primary opponents. Make sure that your vote is only part of the package deal and that it comes with busting their balls. I intend to. I'm still going to vote for Hawkins, but I intend to make Biden's life a living hell if he wins. Election day won't be the last he hears from the left; that's for sure. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 17:49
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can someone sum up the green party drama or post a source not by one of the candidates/their workers? I've been out of the loop but it seems like some folks in the party think the party unified behind Howie to stamp out someone else?
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Jul 24, 2020 18:01
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unemployed posted:Is it "smart politics" to pillory left-leaning people who voted for Bernie, want M4A, UBI, police defunding etc. and are now voting for Biden understanding that it is a compromise based on their belief that a Biden loss will lead to catastrophe in the near future? The reason why people (correctly) have no sympathy for what you're saying here is that you're expressing an opinion with mainstream acceptance in the US that is reflected in mainstream US media and culture. You're basically really mad that a literal handful of people in this thread think that it's bad to vote for Joe Biden. It's like the political equivalent of people getting angry that someone is saying "white people suck" (and just like in that situation it is reflective of some problematic underlying views)
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Jul 24, 2020 18:24
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sexpig by night posted:can someone sum up the green party drama or post a source not by one of the candidates/their workers? I've been out of the loop but it seems like some folks in the party think the party unified behind Howie to stamp out someone else? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3919269&pagenumber=2&perpage=40#post506490864 I think this oughtta cover you
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Jul 24, 2020 18:37
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the_steve posted:https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3919269&pagenumber=2&perpage=40#post506490864 thank you, very helpful!
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Jul 24, 2020 18:48
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Even if you think that the long term threat of SuccDemmery is in fact a greater evil than the evil of a Trump reelection, the leftist bloc refusing to participate isn't going to accomplish anything. I mean, noones telling anyone not to push for things. Push all you want! But ultimately your vote is a zero sum game, and refusing to vote Biden just continues to discredit leftism electorally. Disliking that the left doesn't have options doesn't make more options appear. Almost universally, politics is about leverage. Use the thing you have to get the thing you want. The capitalist class has plenty of money to buy off politicians via campaign donations and PACs. The rest of us have to rely on things like our time and energy, what we can afford to donate, and our vote. Biden clearly doesn't give a poo poo about organizers' time and energy, given that he still has campaign director openings. The Dems don't care about small-dollar donations. So, that leaves votes, the one thing that can't be explicitly bought. If everybody on the left blindly votes for whatever succ Dem is nominated, what incentive is there at all to try to cater to what they want, as opposed to the group of right-wing voters the Dems seem really sure that they can get? There's no leverage. Anybody who believes the Democrats are going to suddenly decide that good things are now possible has to ignore decades of what they've actually done (resisted progress until being forced into pretending they were for it all along) in order to reach that conclusion, because there's no evidence that they'll unilaterally start doing good things, and plenty of evidence against. They need to be forced into it, and if the only way that can happen is by making it clear that they need a block of votes to win through withholding them if necessary, then that's just how it is.
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Jul 24, 2020 18:50
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volts5000 posted:Then don't make your vote free. Give them hell along with it. Protest, organize, fundraise and canvass for primary opponents. Make sure that your vote is only part of the package deal and that it comes with busting their balls. But if I'm voting for them regardless then why would they listen to the other stuff? Doesn't it make more sense to take my vote off the table until they give me what I want, instead of giving them what they want without any effort on their part? You're arguing that I have to vote for them first before they'll listen to me, but I've been voting for them for almost two decades now and they still aren't listening. Seems like not voting for them is the smarter tactic unless I want to practice the definition of insanity for a few more election cycles.
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Jul 24, 2020 18:57
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Wicked Them Beats posted:But if I'm voting for them regardless then why would they listen to the other stuff? Doesn't it make more sense to take my vote off the table until they give me what I want, instead of giving them what they want without any effort on their part? In addition to this, we have a secret ballot, which makes it trivially easy to lie about who you voted for. If a Democratic leader was negotiating with me and said "Well, I'm only willing to listen to you if you voted for Joe Biden" it would be supremely easy to lie.
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Jul 24, 2020 19:09
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