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prokaryote posted:18Ches from All Aboard Games may be a better entry point to the system (temporarily sold out until the Fall I think). I'm sure others will chime in, but I think the reception on 61/67 is somewhat lukewarm. 1882 is also a great option, and I'm under the impression its a far better game than 18Ches. The caveat is is that it's a bit brutal. Chessy is a good intro but a bit toothless with experience (on purpose). 61/67 are fine but would be a better second game. Chessy and 1830 are on 18xx.games if you want a trial run! Bellmaker fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 17:43
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Bellmaker posted:Chessy is a good intro but a bit toothless with experience (on purpose).
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Jul 24, 2020 17:49
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prokaryote posted:yeah this is why I feel like you should just go straight to like 1830 1830 has an even worse private company issue than '18Chessie does. Geez I couldn't imagine players coming from a Euro game background understanding how to play '30. Sure if you're used to playing more competitive games it might could work, but I seriously doubt that four new players could properly price the privates, especially Camden & Amboy, and whomever stumbles into a cheap valuable private has a big leg up on the other players. I guess I evaluate what I think beginning players can handle differently than others because I don't like setting up players to lose because of a choice they couldn't possibly see the outcome of when they made it.
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Jul 24, 2020 18:07
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Mayveena posted:1830 has an even worse private company issue than '18Chessie does. Geez I couldn't imagine players coming from a Euro game background understanding how to play '30. Sure if you're used to playing more competitive games it might could work, but I seriously doubt that four new players could properly price the privates, especially Camden & Amboy, and whomever stumbles into a cheap valuable private has a big leg up on the other players. Everyone can fumble around for a bit and figure it out. I think the biggest problem is just how confusing the waterfall auction system is for first-timers. It could be bad if people overpay for the privates, potentially kneecapping the experience before it even begins, but as long as people are clear on the mechanics and the amount of money needed to start a company there shouldn't be too many problems. Yes, I think this would require people doing a bit of research beforehand to avoid beginner mistakes like this but overall I really can't imagine people used to MWE having trouble getting into 1830. Hell, I taught it to my two friends who are fairly new to games in general and one of which has virtually no experience at all and they both excelled.
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Jul 24, 2020 18:55
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FulsomFrank posted:Everyone can fumble around for a bit and figure it out. I think the biggest problem is just how confusing the waterfall auction system is for first-timers. It could be bad if people overpay for the privates, potentially kneecapping the experience before it even begins, but as long as people are clear on the mechanics and the amount of money needed to start a company there shouldn't be too many problems. Yes, I think this would require people doing a bit of research beforehand to avoid beginner mistakes like this but overall I really can't imagine people used to MWE having trouble getting into 1830. Hell, I taught it to my two friends who are fairly new to games in general and one of which has virtually no experience at all and they both excelled. The experience will be way better if there were an experienced player at the table, no question.
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Jul 24, 2020 19:05
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Mayveena posted:
idk if this sort of thing is that special to 1830, so it seems odd to me to single out '30 compared to other games? Like there's the non RG/trainer openings in FCM, and I'm sure most people's first play of more complex euros is a write-off anyway - like if you're playing a Lacerda for the first time, I'm sure there's plenty of dumb stuff you can do in the first few rounds that guarantee you'll lose. Maybe you feel it's more drastic in '30 compared to other games? Personally, if I know that I'm going to commit like 4 hours to playing a game, I'm going to read a bit beforehand (e.g., on BGG forums etc.) to try to avoid some common pitfalls, no matter the game. And if I'm playing it with other noobs, I'm happy to explain what I read beforehand as well. I realize not everybody enjoys doing this, but then like if you do something that loses on round 1, I don't think you can complain.
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Jul 24, 2020 19:24
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prokaryote posted:idk if this sort of thing is that special to 1830, so it seems odd to me to single out '30 compared to other games? Like there's the non RG/trainer openings in FCM, and I'm sure most people's first play of more complex euros is a write-off anyway - like if you're playing a Lacerda for the first time, I'm sure there's plenty of dumb stuff you can do in the first few rounds that guarantee you'll lose. Maybe you feel it's more drastic in '30 compared to other games? First of all, not everyone does that and it frankly shouldn't be required. No other recent 18xx has as unbalanced privates as 1830, almost certainly because designers view that as a mistake. If players want to play it, fine, I'm just not recommending that four players who've never played the game before should have to read up or stumble through. E: The problem is there is no way they can see any effect of their play. Even in FCM you might could work out that recruiting girl is a good play because in Euros, more plays are simply better. Mayveena fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 19:51
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Mayveena posted:First of all, not everyone does that and it frankly shouldn't be required. Yeah i agree with that, i didn't mean to say it was required. Just a possible solution for trying to avoid the problems you're stating in 1830, and I feel its an option if somebody is seriously interested in the game, and willing to invest the time to learn the rules. Mayveena posted:
sure, i guess I kind of disagree that the difference between '30 and other games is so drastic that the former has to be treated with kid gloves. Like you say "...in FCM you might could work out that recruiting girl is a good play " - yeah, but plenty of people won't? Especially if they're trying to understand all the rules at the same time. And at the end of the day, in either game you have some people that lost in round 1, I don't know if it really matters that in game X they had a small chance to avoid their mistake by some preternatural insight, whereas in game Y they had a much smaller (or zero) chance. Edit: Like I don't think its much of a consolation prize to say to someone that lost early in a game like FCM or whatever that "well, in your first play of this game you could have figured out that it was a bad move because of XYZ reasons", so idk if I feel there's that much of a difference in that regard between '30 and other games. prokaryote fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 20:30
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Having never played any of the games I'm about to mention, I think the difference might be because 18xx is a family. That means it is way, way easier and more cogent to suggest different starting points. Like, if you want a complicated non-train game, if I suggest FCM, it is less direct for someone to counter with TGZ or something.
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Jul 24, 2020 20:34
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61/67 is planned to have a short easy start variant with pre-made bundles of privates and minors.
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Jul 24, 2020 20:37
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prokaryote posted:Yeah i agree with that, i didn't mean to say it was required. Just a possible solution for trying to avoid the problems you're stating in 1830, and I feel its an option if somebody is seriously interested in the game, and willing to invest the time to learn the rules. You get Camden & Amboy at list in '30 and I don't see a way for a beginner playing with other beginners to lose. It's simply that unbalanced. Fortunately there's an auction so with experienced players it works reasonably well but beginners tend to take things at face value. Also not taking RG/Trainer in FCM just causes the game to end faster but at least you get to play to the end instead of going bankrupt in the middle.
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Jul 24, 2020 21:31
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Yeah 1830 is a fragile game, sometimes it can explode spectacularly in people's faces. The closest Euro-equivalent I can think of is Archipelago. A lot of the 30-likes have made changes to make them less fragile (89 only has 7 companies/better privates/less dead space, Chessy has the exports (no poison 4T) and simplified pars (no one's starting a new company and getting 2 5Ts like 1830)). I guess the upcoming 1882 is supposed to be MORE fragile? 
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Jul 24, 2020 21:53
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Mayveena posted:You get Camden & Amboy at list in '30 and I don't see a way for a beginner playing with other beginners to lose. clearly you've never seen me play 1830!  Mayveena posted:
sure, fair enough. I guess at the end of the day, the original discussion was about whether to recommend 1830 to an 18xx-interested gaming group. I guess I can do this if I send them a note to glue to the gamebox which says "don't let the C+A go at face value"? EDIT: Bellmaker posted:Yeah 1830 is a fragile game, sometimes it can explode spectacularly in people's faces. The closest Euro-equivalent I can think of is Archipelago. For me, the reason why '30 is in the discussion to recommend to a new group is that it's probably easier to get than 1889 (for now...), and idk if 18Ches has the legs that '30 does (granted I've not played the former). And then the other classic intro recommendation, '46, is operational (yawn). '49 I feel is pretty simple but its different cuz its partial cap so maybe not a great recommendation, even tho its basically the Best Game Ever. prokaryote fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jul 24, 2020 |
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Jul 24, 2020 21:53
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prokaryote posted:EDIT: 46 is not a good intro in my opinion. I'm fine with operational games but 46 is actually pretty darn punishing of mistakes. 49 is probably my favorite 18xx but it would not be my first/second/third recommendation, it's pretty up there with amounts of stuff going on.
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Jul 24, 2020 22:02
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Bellmaker posted:46 is not a good intro in my opinion. I'm fine with operational games but 46 is actually pretty darn punishing of mistakes. '49 is indeed amazing, wish I could play it every week. if all games except TGZ and 1849 vanished from the earth, not sure how much worse off we'd be
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Jul 24, 2020 22:10
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You guys are making me excited for when my copy of 1849 shows up in... October?
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Jul 24, 2020 22:18
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FulsomFrank posted:You guys are making me excited for when my copy of 1849 shows up in... October? i'm also quite excited to finally own a copy - considering that the last AAG run was delayed a bit, not expecting this one to be any different. OTOH, not sure it really matters as I can't imagine playing too many games in person until like 2021, living (unfortunately) in the US and all
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Jul 24, 2020 23:32
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You just go all in with one of the 1822 family of games that takes 10 hours to play. I am excited to play 18Ches when my copy ships in like December. I've been watching a playthrough of New England and been thinking about that too. Oh no I am developing train madness.
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Jul 25, 2020 00:43
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1830 would be a lot easier to teach if the minimum value you could pay for C&A was 195 or 220 or something Edit: obviously without changing the face value. Do it like 1846s debt concept, you get a private worth X and have to pay an extra Y to the bank. Cthulhu Dreams fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Jul 25, 2020 |
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Jul 25, 2020 01:18
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Concordia rules, thanks for the recommendation a few pages ago! My friends and I are already hooked and we're like 1/2 way through our first game.
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Jul 25, 2020 03:28
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Cervixalot posted:Concordia rules, thanks for the recommendation a few pages ago! My friends and I are already hooked and we're like 1/2 way through our first game. Another boardgoon success story.
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Jul 25, 2020 03:31
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Cervixalot posted:Concordia rules, thanks for the recommendation a few pages ago! My friends and I are already hooked and we're like 1/2 way through our first game. I think it's easily in the "10 Games You Need To Own" category. I've only played it about a dozen times though and spread out over the years so maybe people with more plays might disagree but I think it's remarkable.
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Jul 25, 2020 03:54
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I just noticed that the Lord of the Rings Adventure Card Game (the one on Steam) has apparently transferred from Asmodee Digital to Antihero Studios, and they made an announcement on the Steam page with a development roadmap and everything. Huh.
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Jul 25, 2020 08:25
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FulsomFrank posted:I think it's easily in the "10 Games You Need To Own" category. I've only played it about a dozen times though and spread out over the years so maybe people with more plays might disagree but I think it's remarkable. Concordia is middleweight (not the thread-skewed loony version of game weighting), broadly well liked, critically acclaimed, and goon approved, so just going by the percentages people are likely to have success with it. It's that last one that's hardest to get, since the first three include Wingspan and Terraforming Mars which are not as well liked in these parts.
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Jul 25, 2020 11:38
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Magnetic North posted:Concordia is middleweight (not the thread-skewed loony version of game weighting), broadly well liked, critically acclaimed, and goon approved, so just going by the percentages people are likely to have success with it. It's that last one that's hardest to get, since the first three include Wingspan and Terraforming Mars which are not as well liked in these parts. Y'know I was going to respond to this as if attacked, but I kinda agree with all of it. I'm on the "TfM is bad" side, but still, everything you said tracks pretty well.
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Jul 25, 2020 11:47
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Concordia's strength is in how elegant it is. Play one card, perform its action. That's your turn.
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Jul 25, 2020 12:04
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My copy of Hey, That's My Fish! finally arrived! I gave it a whirl and quite like it. My only question is, when a penguin is trapped/cut-off and therefore can't make a legal move, does it simply stay there (and therefore the tile it's on is wasted and doesn't get cashed-in) or can the penguin move/jump in the water as per the game description/theme, and get that tile as well?
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Jul 25, 2020 13:03
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silvergoose posted:Y'know I was going to respond to this as if attacked, but I kinda agree with all of it.  so am I. TfM was moderately pleasing but not worth 3 hours. I haven't played Wingspan but I'd like to play it because birb 
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Jul 25, 2020 13:08
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Llyranor posted:Concordia's strength is in how elegant it is. Play one card, perform its action. That's your turn. It probably makes it into my top 3 games in my collection, I wish I could play it more often but now my games group is dead I am playing with people new to the hobby and theme seems to be more important than mechanics. I am hoping to shuffle us away from Catan and into Concordia territory now people are getting sick of Catan "screwing them" so being in total control of things with Concordia might be enough to get them to give it a real try. Magnetic North posted:
Redundant fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jul 25, 2020 |
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Jul 25, 2020 13:15
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Concordia is one of the most elegant games. Has more meat than century spice without much more difficulty and has an interesting map. I’m hoping for a return to simple, elegant, but vicious euros to come out in the vein of HT, fresh fish, or T&E instead of the ever increasingly overwrought designs. SUSD’s Targi review was great and pointed out that simplicity. Similarly, really looking forward to this: https://twitter.com/boardgamegeek/status/1286328976034672641 Chonky tiles, good animals, and possibly incredibly mean? Hell yeah
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Jul 25, 2020 13:30
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Chill la Chill posted:Concordia is one of the most elegant games. Has more meat than century spice without much more difficulty and has an interesting map. I’m hoping for a return to simple, elegant, but vicious euros to come out in the vein of HT, fresh fish, or T&E instead of the ever increasingly overwrought designs. SUSD’s Targi review was great and pointed out that simplicity. Similarly, really looking forward to this: I hadn't read it before. That's the most unfriendly tie system I've ever seen, including patchistory. I fuckin wanna try it.
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Jul 25, 2020 13:37
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Chill la Chill posted:Similarly, really looking forward to this: Judging by the board and brief description, that looks a lot like Mexica.
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Jul 25, 2020 15:19
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Major Isoor posted:My copy of Hey, That's My Fish! finally arrived! I gave it a whirl and quite like it. My only question is, when a penguin is trapped/cut-off and therefore can't make a legal move, does it simply stay there (and therefore the tile it's on is wasted and doesn't get cashed-in) or can the penguin move/jump in the water as per the game description/theme, and get that tile as well? The latter - rulebook says that when you have no more legal moves, “He then removes his penguins from the game board and adds the ice floes they occupied to his collection.”
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Jul 25, 2020 15:21
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Chill la Chill posted:Concordia is one of the most elegant games. Has more meat than century spice without much more difficulty and has an interesting map. I’m hoping for a return to simple, elegant, but vicious euros to come out in the vein of HT, fresh fish, or T&E instead of the ever increasingly overwrought designs. SUSD’s Targi review was great and pointed out that simplicity. Similarly, really looking forward to this: I’m really hoping that turns out fun. I’m a big fan of Kramer, but his last few that I’ve played have been disappointing.
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Jul 25, 2020 15:41
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Had a digital board game evening planned, was going to give Root + Dune a burl, but 2 people cancelled. Just like real life  Then one player sent me photos of him playing Unfair with his other group of friends, and I was like maaaaaaaaaate.
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Jul 25, 2020 15:44
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One of the cancellations cause that would be rude af
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Jul 25, 2020 16:10
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gently caress that guy oh my GOD what a lovely goddamn friend.
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Jul 25, 2020 16:49
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Chill la Chill posted:Concordia is one of the most elegant games. Has more meat than century spice without much more difficulty and has an interesting map. I’m hoping for a return to simple, elegant, but vicious euros to come out in the vein of HT, fresh fish, or T&E instead of the ever increasingly overwrought designs. SUSD’s Targi review was great and pointed out that simplicity. Similarly, really looking forward to this: Excited for dominoes to overtake roll & writes as the dominant board game trend.
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Jul 25, 2020 17:12
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I thought those were Mahjong tiles at first.Nea posted:gently caress that guy oh my GOD what a lovely goddamn friend. Yeahhhhh cause we usually have a pact agreement to watch the How To Play videos before game night, so there's 50min I could have been playing Carrion 
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Jul 25, 2020 17:19
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Gonna disagree with the thread here: 46 is a decent intro game if you're bootstrapping yourself into 18xx because it captures the overall game flow, the feel of the genre, and it doesn't have the entire game depend on the completely hosed up and counterintuitive waterfall auction. GMT's printing is also good for new players because it actually has the well actually rules printed on the board (e.g. double/triple jumps, full/half pay, etc). 1830 is probably better if you have people who have played a little bit of 18xx already but it's really tough for an unmoved mover. My path was 1846 -> 1830 -> 1857 -> Everything else
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