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 Anyone else notice this
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Jul 26, 2020 05:29
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Rody One Half posted:And his own reputation via being super lovely to trans journalists! Citation really needed
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Jul 26, 2020 06:05
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Yardbomb posted:Citation really needed I don't know the specific context to what they're referring to, but it sounds like what he's going to change in DP2's script is disappointingly little (and Im guessing it might be related?) https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz/status/1285912934946942976?s=20
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Jul 26, 2020 13:35
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Isn't Laura Kate Dale the same person they talked on the podcast about Persona 5 saying a word that isn't actually that word
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Jul 26, 2020 13:37
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wasn't laura kate dale also the one ready to throw Celeste in the trashbin because its main character wasn't trans enough or whatever
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Jul 26, 2020 14:02
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No idea, but Jim Stirling quoted her. She also made a video on the trans stuff in Swery games that seemed reasonable? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtU2_P26Pj4
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Jul 26, 2020 14:08
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i dont take anyones word on anything these days. use your own eyes and make your own judgements
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Jul 26, 2020 17:28
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a cartoon duck posted:wasn't laura kate dale also the one ready to throw Celeste in the trashbin because its main character wasn't trans enough or whatever Yeah she also trash talked a game made by two transwomen as being incredibly transphobic because one of the game's antagonists, who the game paints as a huge rear end in a top hat and creep, uses the trans protags deadname as a password cause they can't accept the protag's transition. She's....a bit of a dumb dumb a lot of the time.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:28
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Yeah she also trash talked a game made by two transwomen as being incredibly transphobic because one of the game's antagonists, who the game paints as a huge rear end in a top hat and creep, uses the trans protags deadname as a password cause they can't accept the protag's transition. That wasn't her. That article was published by Waypoint, who she has never been employed by to my knowledge. The writer was a woman named Danielle I think.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:49
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Kay Kessler posted:That wasn't her. That article was published by Waypoint, who she has never been employed by to my knowledge. The writer was a woman named Danielle I think. Possibly, There's a lot of incredibly stupid takes about trans issues from game journalists (Coming from both sides too) they all kind of blur together.
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Jul 26, 2020 19:14
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Possibly, There's a lot of incredibly stupid takes about trans issues from game journalists (Coming from both sides too) they all kind of blur together. after calling a woman incredibly stupid for something someone else did you just kinda weirdly handwave 'uh they all look alike' away pretty fast huh
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Jul 26, 2020 19:23
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sexpig by night posted:after calling a woman incredibly stupid for something someone else did you just kinda weirdly handwave 'uh they all look alike' away pretty fast huh Yeah people being weird about trans people is so prevalent it all kind of blends together.
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Jul 26, 2020 19:40
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I figured it was the LKD stuff in some way, which makes that a weird rear end way of phrasing things.
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Jul 26, 2020 21:27
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I wonder if becoming a voice in game journalism pressures you into taking a more "zero tolerance" stance on things because of the reactionary nature of the internet. It's safer to take a general stance that dead naming someone is unacceptable than write about a context of where it is.
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Jul 26, 2020 22:31
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https://twitter.com/Swery65/status/1285933197608419333 A thread SWEARY made, that he later on mostly deleted. https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz/status/1285918371113062402 and https://twitter.com/LaurakBuzz/status/1285750328206426115
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Jul 26, 2020 22:54
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ButterSkeleton posted:I wonder if becoming a voice in game journalism pressures you into taking a more "zero tolerance" stance on things because of the reactionary nature of the internet. It's safer to take a general stance that dead naming someone is unacceptable than write about a context of where it is. nuance in storytelling and character writing is anathema to internet critics, especially in games, for exactly this reason. nobody wants to be perceived as a bigot by reactionary jerks, because the jerks are loud, never shut up, and for some reason people believe them
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Jul 26, 2020 23:09
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scary ghost dog posted:nuance in storytelling and character writing is anathema to internet critics, especially in games, for exactly this reason. nobody wants to be perceived as a bigot by reactionary jerks, because the jerks are loud, never shut up, and for some reason people believe them Or at least, your post is given me those vibes, no offense, because things tend to go the other way, far more often. (That is to say, reactionary jerks get very mad if you even suggest a game is problematic.) I don't doubt a few games have gotten unfair shakes, but I also feel like games writing is generally, not terribly well nuanced, and issues of representation are often handled kinda poorly/clumsily.
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Jul 26, 2020 23:58
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just lol if you actually think that line in persona 5 was "retort it"
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Jul 27, 2020 00:08
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Oxyclean posted:You could just say "sjws are ruining games" and it would have taken less words. this is what im talking about. writer makes nuanced character -> reactionaries call writer bigoted -> poster objects to reactionary response -> poster is accused of being right wing. its an extremely consistent sequence of events that you can see all over the internet whenever anything remotely controversial appears and is just as toxic to discussion as actual bigots complaining about sjws. in both cases the conversation is immediately transformed into an argument over who is a nazi. and yes, often the people arguing are, indeed, nazis. but that is not a conclusion that should be drawn by default. it is not worth shutting down someone arguing in earnest just because its possible that they arent. thats toxic too. it poisons discourse.
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Jul 27, 2020 00:13
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My main thing is that in the case of Red Strings Club is that the reaction to dead naming was to write a piece to critique it and getting feedback from the developers was secondary. The game utilized the act of dead naming (an experience felt by trans people) as part of its story. On top of that one of the developers IS trans. This would imply that the game used actual personal life experience to convey feeling and emotional energy, but it was reduced down to a reaction-driven article because "Don't deadname ever." That kind of thought process removes us from potentially seeing the humanity behind the choices in game development, and can also shy away trans developers from trying to artistically express the toughest parts of their identity.
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Jul 27, 2020 00:23
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its some smallbrained 'depiction is endorsement' poo poo
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Jul 27, 2020 00:26
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scary ghost dog posted:this is what im talking about. writer makes nuanced character -> reactionaries call writer bigoted -> poster objects to reactionary response -> poster is accused of being right wing. its an extremely consistent sequence of events that you can see all over the internet whenever anything remotely controversial appears and is just as toxic to discussion as actual bigots complaining about sjws. in both cases the conversation is immediately transformed into an argument over who is a nazi. and yes, often the people arguing are, indeed, nazis. but that is not a conclusion that should be drawn by default. it is not worth shutting down someone arguing in earnest just because its possible that they arent. thats toxic too. it poisons discourse. "Hey, this stuff with the trans character looks bad, but his last game was really good about this, so lets see whats up" "Swery is aware, he's going to change stuff" "Cool!" "Swery changed one instance of the dead-name, but is not changing it any time York is doing it to refer to the person in the past tense" "Oh that sucks." No-one's being shut down over being a nazi or a transphobe. I'm pointing out I don't like the "both sides" vibe of your previous post, but I feel like I made a point to couch that in me maybe getting the wrong impression.
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Jul 27, 2020 00:27
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Oxyclean posted:You could just say "sjws are ruining games" and it would have taken less words. you’re an idiot
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Jul 27, 2020 00:29
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Bonaventure posted:you’re an idiot Like, I shared the opinion of someone else (a trans woman) and then several posters focused on them apparently being know for bad takes (another poster pointing out at least one example was mistaken) and so far it kinda feels like no-one has really given an argument for Swery? So a "sometime the progressive reactionaries are dumb" take feels kinda lame when no-one as actually addressed any of the substance of the issue?
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Jul 27, 2020 00:40
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Oxyclean posted:The order of events I saw with DP2 looked like: i dont care if you dislike the “both sides” vibe of my previous post, and you definitely did get the wrong impression. i often think both sides of an argument are wrong but i only insert myself if one of the sides is actually right but arguing in a hosed up way that hurts their point. edit: actually sometimes i insert myself into an argument for no reason just to troll, but im always smiling and never have ill intent
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Jul 27, 2020 00:43
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I think the real kicker is that Swery changed it by removing one line York says...but then everything proceeds as if York had said the line anyway so it just comes off as a weird glitch in a game full of weird glitches.
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Jul 27, 2020 00:44
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If you're going to have a character in your work do a bigoted thing, you have to make it clear that is an element of that character and not the base assumption of reality* of the writer. It's pretty hard to do, and even when you do it right people will get mad at you because they don't want to see that in the media they consume. *By this I mean the ideology. Ideology being that which you do not question. For example "I assume trans identities are not valid" and as such incorporate that idea as a principle into the world and characters I make. The fictional world operates as if that is law. Persona 4 is a great example of this. miniscule12 fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Jul 27, 2020 |
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Jul 27, 2020 00:56
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miniscule12 posted:If you're going to have a character in your work do a bigoted thing, you have to make it clear that is an element of that character and not the base assumption of reality of the writer. no, you dont have to make it clear. if theres any question whether or not a bigoted character represents the perspective of the writer then the piece is already a failure because the writer has failed to make their characters distinct from themself. if the characters are clearly distinct from the writer, and one of them is bigoted, and someone engaging with the piece has to ask if that character represents the writers personal perspective, then that person is critically illiterate and should not be allowed to freely post their opinions online miniscule12 posted:*By this I mean the ideology. Ideology being that which you do not question. For example "I assume trans identities are not valid" and as such incorporate that idea as a principle into the world and characters I make. The fictional world operates as if that is law. ah, the “starship troopers is fascist” school of criticism
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Jul 27, 2020 01:02
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scary ghost dog posted:no, you dont have to make it clear. if theres any question whether or not a bigoted character represents the perspective of the writer then the piece is already a failure because the writer has failed to make their characters distinct from themself. if the characters are clearly distinct from the writer, and one of them is bigoted, and someone engaging with the piece has to ask if that character represents the writers personal perspective, then that person is critically illiterate and should not be allowed to freely post their opinions online This is incorrect because it's not a matter of the writer not being distinct from their character, but the reader not being distinct from the work. In our alienated brains we associate the pieces of media we consume as part of our identity, so if we like a piece of work that has a bigoted character we believe it reflects something in ourselves. You may say this is wrong, but this is a wide spread reality that you can not avoid. It is a critical mass of alienation. There are no critical thinkers left in our commodified, burning world.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:06
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scary ghost dog posted:no, you dont have to make it clear. if theres any question whether or not a bigoted character represents the perspective of the writer then the piece is already a failure because the writer has failed to make their characters distinct from themself. if the characters are clearly distinct from the writer, and one of them is bigoted, and someone engaging with the piece has to ask if that character represents the writers personal perspective, then that person is critically illiterate and should not be allowed to freely post their opinions online this is correct
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Jul 27, 2020 01:07
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miniscule12 posted:This is incorrect because it's not a matter of the writer not being distinct from their character, but the reader not being distinct from the work. In our alienated brains we associate the pieces of media we consume as part of our identity, so if we like a piece of work that has a bigoted character we believe it reflects something in ourselves. You may say this is wrong, but this is a wide spread reality that you can not avoid. It is a critical mass of alienation. youre projecting your own perspective onto everyone else, and you really need to do some introspection because this is complete nonsense. if you really want to like inglourious basterds but you cant because hans landa is just too charming then the problem is you, not the writing.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:08
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scary ghost dog posted:ah, the “starship troopers is fascist” school of criticism Starship troopers is fascist. It is a window into the media of a fascist world, however the director has put in elements to attempt to show the fraying ropes of such a society. This of course doesn't stop fascists from loving it uncritically.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:08
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scary ghost dog posted:youre projecting your own perspective onto everyone else, and you really need to do some introspection because this is complete nonsense if millions of people start believing in nonsense, such as "the coronavirus is a hoax", they still believe in that nonsense even if it is factually untrue or based on irrationality. And you are still powerless to stop them.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:09
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miniscule12 posted:This is incorrect because it's not a matter of the writer not being distinct from their character, but the reader not being distinct from the work. In our alienated brains we associate the pieces of media we consume as part of our identity, so if we like a piece of work that has a bigoted character we believe it reflects something in ourselves. You may say this is wrong, but this is a wide spread reality that you can not avoid. It is a critical mass of alienation. this is a neurotic, infantile way of engaging with art and entertainment. don’t shackle me with your own pathology
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Jul 27, 2020 01:10
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Bonaventure posted:this is a neurotic, infantile way of engaging with art and entertainment. I'm laughing at the sheer irony that people think I'm describing myself who is aware of this phenomenon, and trying to explain how millions of people are affected by this phenomenon but believe I the writer endorse this in a discussion about people believing an author condones everything they write.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:11
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miniscule12 posted:if millions of people start believing in nonsense, such as "the coronavirus is a hoax", they still believe in that nonsense even if it is factually untrue or based on irrationality. And you are still powerless to stop them. i dont understand what your point is and i dont think you do either
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Jul 27, 2020 01:12
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scary ghost dog posted:i dont understand what your point is and i dont think you do either I'm just saying a lot of people do engage with media in an infantile way, but due to the logic of capitalism, they must be appeased.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:13
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miniscule12 posted:I'm laughing at the sheer irony that people think I'm describing myself who is aware of this phenomenon, and trying to explain how millions of people are affected by this phenomenon but believe I the writer endorse this in a discussion about people believing an author condones everything they write. ok i think i figured it out. you think when we are talking about “writers,” we are including people who make posts on internet message boards. well, im sorry to say that i dont think your posts qualify as art.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:14
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True art does not exist, there are only products that exist to be marketed to consumers. There is no reader, only a consumer. Therefore, works must be compromised to appeal to consumers. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 27, 2020 01:14
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miniscule12 posted:I'm just saying a lot of people do engage with media in an infantile way, but due to the logic of capitalism, they must be appeased. lol what the hell.
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Jul 27, 2020 01:15
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