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lmao at RT responding https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1287373531119067141?s=20
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Jul 26, 2020 14:20
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I don't get how these people suing the political party they are (theoretically) devoting their lives to supporting can look themselves in the mirror.
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Jul 26, 2020 14:21
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If anyone (Starmer) thinks that this would put an end to it, he is very much mistaken. The LP would be jumping to their whims at any time thereafter. This is what I recall from CLP meetings a year or so ago, members (particularly those heavily invested in the Guardian view of the world) repeatedly saying 'if he (Corbyn) just apologizes we can draw a line under it and it will go away.' But he apologized over and over again, and it never went away, it just keeps on and on. I note that tories can just say "We've drawn a line under that and won't be discussing it further." about just about anything and get away with it. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Jul 26, 2020 |
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Jul 26, 2020 14:25
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:If anyone (Starmer) thinks that this would put an end to it, he is very much mistaken. The LP would be jumping to their whims at any time thereafter. Even I can do it too; "Starmer is a member of an institutionally anti-Semitic party and tried to get one elected to PM, and I cannot in good conscience vote for a racist". Boom, done.
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Jul 26, 2020 14:39
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 New Praxiscast Take your mind off the crumbling mess that is the Labour Party with a podcast about dinosaurs (and i'm reliably informed also magma for some reason???) https://twitter.com/PraxisCast/status/1287382501078564869 In case you missed it we've also got Josh Sawyer on the last episode to talk about colonialism/politics in video games which was a lot of fun, but had less dino-facts. https://twitter.com/PraxisCast/status/1285630943399747586 Enjoy!
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Jul 26, 2020 14:50
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I enjoyed episode 45 even though I didn't really know what was going on. Except when you mentioned Hitman, I know that one 
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Jul 26, 2020 14:55
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Having only learned about glinners transphobia long after he got into it it's wild seeing jk Rowling go the same way in real time
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Jul 26, 2020 15:29
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Oh cool we've gone full tilt into the "fucks sake what's she said now?" phase.
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Jul 26, 2020 15:31
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Is she at it again? Or rather is it a case of never stopping?
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Jul 26, 2020 15:32
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ronya posted:
I know it is not a 1:1 comparison but if people had been holding up ANC flags in the 1980's, would you be calling them loonies as well?
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Jul 26, 2020 15:34
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Jose posted:The lawyer representing Iain mcnichol and the rest quote:The lawyer, who made his name representing Milly Dowler’s family against the News of the World over phone hacking, blamed his outburst on Clonazepam, a sedative he was given during a medical trial for multiple sclerosis, side effects of which include aggression and hallucinations.
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Jul 26, 2020 15:36
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If the Labour left does get purged and creates a new party, is it doomed to go the way of CUK or could the grassroots energy that Corbyn mobilised go some way to mitigating the disadvantages of being a smaller party under FPTP, and even potentially make a successful case that it's the 'real' Labour Party? Usually I'd disregard the idea, but these are strange times and there was a hell of a lot of energy behind JC that hasn't gone anywhere. Obviously there's not going to be a landslide win for a new party but perhaps a few seats... ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Jul 26, 2020 |
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Jul 26, 2020 15:41
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ThomasPaine posted:If the Labour left does get purged and creates a new party, is it doomed to go the way of CUK or could the grassroots energy that Corbyn mobilised go some way to mitigating the disadvantages of being a smaller party under FPTP, and even potentially make a successful case that it's the 'real' Labour Party? As I've said many times, it depends whether it gets union backing, and if so, how many and which ones. The unions not only bring large amounts of money, but also provide a sense of institutional legitimacy that a new party with otherwise no real support anywhere else simply wouldn't have.
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Jul 26, 2020 15:57
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What the Funny Tinges neglected to do most of all was to try to build any kind of electoral base or personal appeal outside "I am your [$_PARTY] candidate". The most likely source for a new party of the left would be inner-city seats with a large existing Labour majority in the constituency and on local authorities, a sizeable proportion of younger voters willing to actually go to the polls, and a sitting MP and/or councillors willing to throw their lot in and minimise the effect of voter loyalty to the old party. They'd probably also have to be open to tactical alliances with the Greens and the Lib Dems, who at the first sign of an actual split in the Labour Party would be buzzing round a number of key seats quicker than you could say Jack Robinson. The new party's supporters would also have to be under no impression that the absolute ceiling for the first couple of elections would be no higher than the 1906 election and there would be no hope of taking national power as anything other than a very junior coalition partner or confidence/supply partner for a generation afterwards. There could be appeal in the idea of a party which accepts that the most they can do for now is to drag the Overton window to the left and play on the "another victory for Prime Minister Jeremy Corbyn" angle, and it is of course very easy to be united and ideologically pure when you don't have to turn an ideological principle into an inevitably imperfect real-world solution. I don't think it's impossible. It *would* take a lot of things all coming together at once. It would also require them to all keep pulling on the same rope instead of succumbing to the urge to keep splitting when some things didn't go their way. I also think casting themselves as "Real Labour" or whatever would be a massive own goal unless it were in service of taking over existing Labour's assets (and would still remain a double-edged sword); the whole point of the Labour Representation Committee was that they were trying to do something new.
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Jul 26, 2020 16:05
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Apraxin posted:whom amongst us hasn't accidentally told someone that we hope their father has to sit shiva for them soon whilst posting in a semi-conscious state? I just hope that the makers of Clonzepam go full Roseanne and make a post saying “Making Anti-Semitic comments and Death Threats is not a known side effect of our medicines.”
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Jul 26, 2020 16:17
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The Question IRL posted:I just hope that the makers of Clonzepam go full Roseanne and make a post saying “Making Anti-Semitic comments and Death Threats is not a known side effect of our medicines.” nhs says: you see or hear things that are not there (hallucinations) or think things that aren't true (delusions) I could do with some.
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Jul 26, 2020 16:22
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Generic Pharmasec Ltd takes no responsibility for any grand pianos you may purchase while under the influence of benzodiazepine drugs.
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Jul 26, 2020 16:22
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https://twitter.com/wariotifo/status/1287426093683744768?s=20 Good to see the noble Labour MP defending the honour of Ghislaine Maxwell
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Jul 26, 2020 17:39
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ThomasPaine posted:If the Labour left does get purged and creates a new party, is it doomed to go the way of CUK or could the grassroots energy that Corbyn mobilised go some way to mitigating the disadvantages of being a smaller party under FPTP, and even potentially make a successful case that it's the 'real' Labour Party? The Labour Party will die if a wing of it with confirmed left wing credentials splits off so even if it’s not immediately successful it will at least have helped to kill the plague which is Labour and that’s a worthy goal tbh
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Jul 26, 2020 17:51
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Sanitary Naptime posted:The Labour Party will die if a wing of it with confirmed left wing credentials splits off so even if it’s not immediately successful it will at least have helped to kill the plague which is Labour and that’s a worthy goal tbh The other side of the party thought the same about the SDP back in the day...
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Jul 26, 2020 17:54
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Communist Thoughts posted:eh like 60-70% of the electorate solidly beleive the media. This is true but that still leaves a sizeable chunk of people who are incredibly pissed off with the status quo and could be brought on board. Right now the right are pushing down hard on a message of "There is no hope, give up, we will crush you", which is what the antisemitism narrative has morphed into. "We will smear you and then gaslight you and force you to apologise for what we did you to" is a very effective way of keeping people atomised. As time goes on, the will to actually challenge the right will diminish but right now, there's still a lot of angry people who saw what solidarity could do, and who have just learned the lesson that you never, ever trust Liberals. The media needs to be openly confronted, because it is a force wielded by an enemy. There's simply no way around that. Staying low and quiet isn't the way to do that.
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Jul 26, 2020 17:57
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forkboy84 posted:https://twitter.com/wariotifo/status/1287426093683744768?s=20 Sheerman has an incredibly powerful brain.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:00
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ronya posted:I'm a bit divided about this read; on one hand, when Corbyn decided to triangulate on police and Trident, people who one might've thought would never give up on that hill suddenly obediently turned about. Not only The small group of people who have caused most of the big antisemitic flashpoints are not introspective enough for an intervention by Corbyn to have had any effect. Whereas the vast majority of Labour members are not so blinkered, and a scheme of political education (along the lines Jon Lansman had called for) pointing out what constitutes antisemitic dogwhistles could have been really effective if it had started early enough and had properly fed into the parties anti-racist agenda. For example, after the last 4 years there is no excuse for anyone adjacent to power in the Labour party to be retweeting or otherwise endorsing an articles/speeches/videos/images with overt antisemitic dogwhistles or otherwise dodgy suppositions about Israel or Jews. This is where incompetence crushed our anti-racist credentials. I can fully believe that RLB didn't actually read that interview with Maxine Peak or simply glanced over the 2 sentence paragraph that caused the trouble, but for a middle-aged trained solicitor who was been a front-bencher since 2015, that is not good enough. She got binned by Starmer in part for toeing too close to the teachers unions, but if we're to live up to our own agenda then if Corbyn was still in position and more ruthless RLB should've been binned anyway, for incompetence. twoot fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jul 26, 2020 |
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Jul 26, 2020 18:02
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but in many cases actively arguing that these were genius chess moves that would be the one thing they are willing to sell to the conservative heartland working class
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On the other hand that's a load of shite and she did nothing wrong and jumping at every disingenous whinge coming out of the liberal commentariat will get you nowhere. Run on a platform of gulags for all journalists.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:05
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forkboy84 posted:https://twitter.com/wariotifo/status/1287426093683744768?s=20 I think I've said it before, but if I was the police and not corrupt I'd be making a big list of all the Epstein/Maxwell defenders and investigating the hell out of them
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Jul 26, 2020 18:07
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https://www.theguardian.com/society...AndroidApp_Edge Cool, just in time for the millennials to get totally shafted, again, continuously, until the day we loving die.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:24
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twoot posted:For example, after the last 4 years there is no excuse for anyone adjacent to power in the Labour party to be retweeting or otherwise endorsing an articles/speeches/videos/images with overt antisemitic dogwhistles or otherwise dodgy suppositions about Israel or Jews. This is where incompetence crushed our anti-racist credentials. I can fully believe that RLB didn't actually read that interview with Maxine Peak or simply glanced over the 2 sentence paragraph that caused the trouble, but for a middle-aged trained solicitor who was been a front-bencher since 2015, that is not good enough. She got binned by Starmer in part for toeing too close to the teachers unions, but if we're to live up to our own agenda then if Corbyn was still in position and more ruthless RLB should've been binned anyway, for incompetence. They would have found SOMETHING. Maybe she would have lasted a week or two or even a month or two longer, but they would eventually have found some excuse to junk her. It wasn't about her actions specifically, it was about her having done SOMETHING they could sell as a reason to fire her. Nobody can be careful enough to avoid the axe forever when the axe is on a hair trigger (this axe has a trigger whaddayagunnado) which has nothing to do with why it's ostensibly being swung.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:25
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Boy it's a good thing that jeremy corbyn didn't get in and raise taxes isn't it.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:27
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twoot posted:The small group of people who have caused most of the big antisemitic flashpoints are not introspective enough for an intervention by Corbyn to have had any effect. Whereas the vast majority of Labour members are not so blinkered, and a scheme of political education (along the lines Jon Lansman had called for) pointing out what constitutes antisemitic dogwhistles could have been really effective if it had started early enough and had properly fed into the parties anti-racist agenda. I remarked at the time that I thought it was a mistake; Starmer should have asked her to sign off on a sufficiently grovelling apology, RLB would predictably refuse (because she had been transparently testing the waters on what Starmer would let her get away with in multiple areas), and then Starmer would have had carte blanche to boot her. I suppose that's a quibble but would separate incompetence from recalcitrance. By dismissing her immediately Starmer opened himself up to speculation on what standard he would enforce and that's indeed what some of the normally soft-inclined MPs are wavering on. I'm not sure a JVL-approved diversity training would suffice - there's too many in the party quick to assert theoretically Correct but completely incredible stances like "of course I don't think Israel has a right to exist, I don't think any state should exist  - why yes, that is a Palestinian flag I am holding, why do you ask?". Which cannot be barred on principle but is also, well, completely incredible as anti-racist credentials go. What you're suggesting is tantamount to a unilateral ban on commenting on anything that mentions I/P because the party, even senior professional members, are plainly too indisciplined to make unreviewed comment on the subject. Which might be true but perhaps not achievable, not even by a leader commanding a phenomenal degree of personal authority in the party.
ronya fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jul 26, 2020 |
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Jul 26, 2020 18:31
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Perhaps left wing politics is inherently incompatible with the idiotic form of media politesse that bears no relation to anybody who matters' loving life and which yet every supposed left wing leader is terrified of deviating from, because they spend too much time around other people who live their lives by it. And if you're ever going to motivate a popular left wing movement centered in the people it ougth to serve, you have to throw that entire thing out of the window and encourage a complete disregard not only for adhering to it but also its entire legitimacy as a concept.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:46
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thespaceinvader posted:this axe has a trigger whaddayagunnado  ronya posted:there's too many in the party quick to assert theoretically Correct but completely incredible stances like "of course I don't think Israel has a right to exist, I don't think any state should exist I'm not sure how many otherwise doctrinaire anarchists there are in Labour with Palestinian flags though.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:47
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ronya posted:I remarked at the time that I thought it was a mistake; Starmer should have asked her to sign off on a sufficiently grovelling apology, RLB would predictably refuse (because she had been transparently testing the waters on what Starmer would let her get away with in multiple areas), and then Starmer would have had carte blanche to boot her. I suppose that's a quibble but would separate incompetence from recalcitrance. By dismissing her immediately Starmer opened himself up to speculation on what standard he would enforce and that's indeed what some of the normally soft-inclined MPs are wavering on. that is what happened though near enough isn't it? RLB refused to delete the original tweet as required by the LOTO as part of her apology, giving the casus beli for her dismissal.
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Jul 26, 2020 18:55
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Cerv posted:that is what happened though near enough isn't it? Hmm, kinda, it seems. According to her version of events in the Graun, it was a refusal via counteroffer to have the boss personally intervene to sign off on outcomes - instead of herself hanging out to dry, she wants her mistake to wrap the rest of the organization too. That's unpleasant but should still have received a "no, this is your screwup, please handle this in your personal capacity" response rather than "nah you're fired, clear your desk"
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Jul 26, 2020 19:21
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it's almost like they wanted any excuse to get rid of her 
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Jul 26, 2020 19:28
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thespaceinvader posted:They would have found SOMETHING. Maybe she would have lasted a week or two or even a month or two longer, but they would eventually have found some excuse to junk her. It wasn't about her actions specifically, it was about her having done SOMETHING they could sell as a reason to fire her. Nobody can be careful enough to avoid the axe forever when the axe is on a hair trigger (this axe has a trigger whaddayagunnado) which has nothing to do with why it's ostensibly being swung. Probably. But I also think it should be the responsibility of the leading left-members of our leading left-wing political party to be good at politics. Throwing in the towel is not that. ronya posted:What you're suggesting is tantamount to a unilateral ban on commenting on anything that mentions I/P because the party, even senior professional members, are plainly too indisciplined to make unreviewed comment on the subject. Which might be true but perhaps not achievable, not even by a leader commanding a phenomenal degree of personal authority in the party. I don't really agree. Professional-level members with a media profile shouldn't be diverging from party's policy in public anyway. For an everyday member we should be following the example of leading leftist jews in the ways I/P can be discussed without crossing the line into antisemitism. OwlFancier posted:Perhaps left wing politics is inherently incompatible with the idiotic form of media politesse that bears no relation to anybody who matters' loving life and which yet every supposed left wing leader is terrified of deviating from, because they spend too much time around other people who live their lives by it. And if you're ever going to motivate a popular left wing movement centered in the people it ougth to serve, you have to throw that entire thing out of the window and encourage a complete disregard not only for adhering to it but also its entire legitimacy as a concept. It doesn't matter what level of media control you have if you can't live by your own loving agenda. I won't take poo poo from a "leftist" who has a sudden softspot for landlordism because they were given a flat to profit with by daddy. I don't accept that I have to put up explicit or accidental antisemitism, and after 4 years I'm done with being demotivated by idiots who can't help themselves. The bare minimum a professional politico can do is read the thing they are about to tweet first. twoot fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jul 26, 2020 |
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Jul 26, 2020 19:39
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baka kaba posted:it's almost like they wanted any excuse to get rid of her you really think someone would do that? just become labour leader on a moderate platform and kick out all the leftists?
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Jul 26, 2020 19:45
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Just went out for an evening walk and a Lancaster escorted by two Spitfires randomly flew over. Is this Brexit??
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Jul 26, 2020 19:49
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twoot posted:I don't accept that I have to put up explicit or accidental antisemitism, and after 4 years I'm done with being demotivated by idiots who can't help themselves. The bare minimum a professional politico can do is read the thing they are about to tweet first. You don't, but she didn't do that, it's entirely facetious outcry generated solely by massive tories looking to manfacture outrage and capitalized on by shithead starmer. You know why labour people care about I/P, I know why, that media scum pretend not is unavoidable but what is avoidable is that we should be led by them, they are worthless, their opinions are worthless, their outrage is manufactured and meaningless, gently caress them, gently caress their complaints, to hell with the lot of them, the sooner they're all in the dirt the better off the world will be. We can't have a worthwhile society or a worthwhile political movement if we're going to constantly comport to their completely absurd and meaningless drivel. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jul 26, 2020 |
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Jul 26, 2020 19:55
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Going to found a new party for the next election with a single manifesto promise: to build a giant blender and toss every journalist in the UK into it while it's running
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Jul 26, 2020 19:58
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twoot posted:
Perhaps she did and did not see anything anti-semitic in it? The original interview with Peake said, IIRC, something along the lines of Israeli security forces training police officers. As the Israeli Krav Magna institute in Brooklyn was at that very time showing on its front page a large image of people being trained in knee on the neck technique and a list of various police forces in the US and other locations it was working with, and saying training was being carried out by former members of Israeli security forces, I'm not sure why that makes the comment 'anti-semitic'. (Note that they have since pulled that page and you need to go to the web archive to see it as it was before the furore.) https://web.archive.org/web/20200626012422/https://israelitacticalkravmaga.com/law-enforcement/
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Jul 26, 2020 20:00
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