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NyetscapeNavigator posted:what makes everyone entitled to Nintendo's cutting room floor? Nintendo is not obligated to share any of this. what on earth makes someone think this way? i mean this might be a hot take, but i think corporations sitting on a loving dragon hoard of behind-the-scenes information and data rather than releasing it into the historical record is, actually, bad it's Nintendo's right to attempt to hide it, but it's incredibly dickish of them, and going "oh gently caress no you don't, that's all coming out now" is a good and appropriate response
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Jul 28, 2020 05:16
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:So I imagine this'll pretty much blow the lid even further on NES/SNES/N64 homebrew, since we have a metric gently caress ton of source code for classic Nintendo games now. Also, to quote a MAME developer on Reddit: arbee37 posted:People generally aren't aware of this, but emulators have to know far more about the systems than licensed developers did. I programmed a shipping SNES game, and the official manuals weren't even close to as detailed as nocash's SNES document.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:22
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:i mean this might be a hot take, but i think corporations sitting on a loving dragon hoard of behind-the-scenes information and data rather than releasing it into the historical record is, actually, bad I'd personally say the only thing that's probably legitimately worth guarding with their typical level of secret-hoarding is maybe the Wii and DS generations onwards, just because there's probably design decisions and general coding practices in the software and hardware feeding into the current generation. Anything before that is 20 years out of date, and the only people who're gonna give a gently caress about the source code for N64 games and prior platforms are the fans. And we're all sure loving what's coming out of this leak  .
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Jul 28, 2020 05:30
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Nintendo doesn't owe anyone anything of this stuff but it would be incredibly cool if they released it, scrubbed of personal information. They routinely shoot themselves in their foot but releasing old stuff would be very cool.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:33
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Sorry if this has been asked, I'm catching up on this thread wide mouth and agape. With stuff like the source code for SMB1, can people just...legitiamtely code nintendo games? Have all original NES/SNES/etc games just been romhacks without people understanding the underlying structure of how the games were put together, or was that already out there? (I know nothing about how any of this works)
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Jul 28, 2020 05:36
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:So I imagine this'll pretty much blow the lid even further on NES/SNES/N64 homebrew, since we have a metric gently caress ton of source code for classic Nintendo games now. A lot of the consoles from that era are already figured out homebrew-wise, and most hackers working on the current efforts (like the sm64 decompiling project devs) won't even look at leaked code because it could land them on hot waters with Nintendo.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:38
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Quidthulhu posted:Sorry if this has been asked, I'm catching up on this thread wide mouth and agape. People already have the ability to do this, and homebrew for these consoles already exists. Check out https://www.romhacking.net/homebrew/ and you can see a lot. To be honest, I haven't played much homebrew that was actually.... good (edit: On Nintendo consoles anyway. There is a lot of really cool Atari stuff out of there), but I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that most are one guy projects being done for no or next to no profit.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:44
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hexwren posted:based on how much of gaming history literally ends up in dumpsters, I really doubt this When the cabinets were opened the buyer found all sorts of original art and engineering schematics for their early 80's titles like Centipede, Tempest, and Crystal Castles.  how much of this is regular (but still obscure) BS Zelda and how much is new? or was it the boy or girl sprite used on the Satallaview menu?
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Jul 28, 2020 05:50
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:i mean this might be a hot take, but i think corporations sitting on a loving dragon hoard of behind-the-scenes information and data rather than releasing it into the historical record is, actually, bad It's crazy because other industries release alternate cuts, behind the scenes stuff and different song mixes and charge for it; Nintendo could profit by making a book detailing all of this stuff. I have a good collection of the Zelda titles that go through the history of the games, but man, it feels so incomplete since none of them mention anything about these early builds and titles. They could also use some of this stuff (like the voices especially) if they ever add N64 titles to Switch online. I'd love to play through Starfox 64 with the uncompressed voices, that would own. It also sucks that there's so much old beta footage and pictures that are poor quality or lost on VHS somewhere, or rotting in a magazine that was printed 20 years back in Brazil or some poo poo. Then again, I can't even buy my favorite Nintendo soundtracks so Nintendo doesn't think any of this is worth a drat... except to keep for themselves for some reason.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:50
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Quidthulhu posted:Sorry if this has been asked, I'm catching up on this thread wide mouth and agape. Depends on the romhacks Crude ones are just finding where things already are in the code, and trying not to break things. Doing stuff like replacing pokemon with jojo characters are pretty simple - a picture is a picture, the game doesn't care if Oddish is now DIO. At an intermediate point people will start mapping out the assembly, and having an idea of where the code is that does what. One trick used is injecting a jump to your new code in an existing routine - so when it gets to the 'shoot a fireball' section of the code, instead it jumps to a new sequence you made up entirely, and then jumps back once you're done. Once you start doing things that are really elaborate, a lot of people will disassemble the code, which converts virtually impossible to understand assembly code into merely extremely-difficult-to-understand code in a higher level language. Since there usually aren't any variable names then there's a lot of time figuring out what this big mass of code actually is, and where the things you want to tweak are. In principle you can eventually get that well commented enough that it's just a new copy of source code. Depending on the game figuring out stuff can be either really easy or really hard. Earthbound is apparently a nighmarish snarl and doing anything romhack wise is hard. If you're just trying to make something that can run on a NES or SNES that's well understood, that's the type of stuff every third party dev had to know.
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Jul 28, 2020 05:52
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sigher posted:Then again, I can't even buy my favorite Nintendo soundtracks so Nintendo doesn't think any of this is worth a drat... except to keep for themselves for some reason. Which soundtracks are you referring to?
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Jul 28, 2020 06:23
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It’s a bit much to go into here, but 8 and 16 bit games are written in assembly so it’s a 1 to 1 relationship between a line a developer wrote and a command executed by the CPU. So, going backwards from the raw binary to something that’s human readable (not necessarily understandable) is trivial. Here’s a guy demonstrating the mini assembler and memory inspection tools on an Apple II, which isn’t too removed from what the people working on famicom games in 1983 had to work with. https://youtu.be/PNOj6GTzfGY Re: rom hacking for translation, a rom hacker doesn’t need to know EVERYTHING for how a game works like an RPG battle system or how the areas are laid out. They DO need to understand how text is loaded and rendered to the screen. Edit: I think someone in the 80’s would be working with something more professional like Merlin on the Apple II - or Japanese equivalent. https://youtu.be/GG6tfYyzzbM about 5 minutes in. This object code would be uploaded to some developer cartridge for running on a Famicom. Coffee Jones fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 07:01
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Coffee Jones posted:8 and 16 bit games are written in assembly so it’s a 1 to 1 relationship between a line a developer wrote and a command executed by the CPU. For another example on another platform, the Sonic series is rife with disassemblies allowing for savvy ROM-hackers to do some pretty incredible stuff.
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Jul 28, 2020 07:09
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https://twitter.com/xkeepah/status/1287149118494670848?s=20 One neat bit that original source gets you is original comments and commented out code. In link’s awakening you encounter a mermaid, and in the code you see a first pass by a translator, and because this is decidedly not that kind of dream  , a rewrite with the original text commented out but still left in- the lines with semicolons https://twitter.com/0xabad1dea/status/1286823432827686920?s=20 You also get some insight into how they manage bugs- no database, just “Bugs.txt” Coffee Jones fucked around with this message at 07:59 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 07:56
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I believe in the Japanese (maybe the Europe versions as well?) she still says she lost her top, And in those versions if you dive under her (you know, with her chest under the water) she'll call you a pervert. Of course stateside that got edited to be her necklace and saying she already looked under her.
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Jul 28, 2020 08:05
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Quidthulhu posted:Which soundtracks are you referring to? Any of them, and I don't want to hear nothin' about getting them imported on CD from Japan where they did get released. I want to be able to buy them digitally. Leal posted:I believe in the Japanese (maybe the Europe versions as well?) she still says she lost her top, And in those versions if you dive under her (you know, with her chest under the water) she'll call you a pervert. Of course stateside that got edited to be her necklace and saying she already looked under her. My face is your Av right now.
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Jul 28, 2020 09:03
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LuigiBlood has been doing proper music rips of music from the prototypes, if you're looking for The Forbidden Jams. SPC (remember those?) download links are in the description. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnRtJl8SiFs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFxSDlf3pwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq3qMCO1glw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTdpUCWXuwI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZ_5zr1uzAE
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Jul 28, 2020 09:44
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Another Pokemon Pearl proto has surfaced. No bombshells in this one so far, just a bunch of kinda-interesting environment/sprite differences. https://twitter.com/Lewchube/status/1287803282962952192 Same person also just put up a collection of the sprites from the gen 2 leak from April that bizarrely got zero attention outside of moldy old pokemon nerd circles. https://twitter.com/Lewchube/status/1287871884118302720 I remember I took a look at 4chan's pokemon board because I figured it'd be full of people picking through it, and at least half the replies in the related thread – which kept going hours without posts and falling down to like the third or fourth page – were people insisting that the whole thing was fake despite having originated from a dump that also contained never-before-seen functioning protos and internal dev tools 
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Jul 28, 2020 10:11
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Pretty good posted:Zelda 1 SNES (not BS (?) ) Link sprite sheet Holy poo poo. Hmm early bs zelda right?
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Jul 28, 2020 10:56
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Hogama posted:The prototype dungeon all put together goddamn. So do think this is the early rooms for when the game was more mario 64 like, with ganons tower being the hub area?
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Jul 28, 2020 10:58
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Vikar Jerome posted:goddamn. So do think this is the early rooms for when the game was more mario 64 like, with ganons tower being the hub area?
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Jul 28, 2020 11:04
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I'll never understand why gamers boot lick Nintendo to such extreme. They are just as bad as any other corporation. It's a good thing these things leaked and I agree with the other poster, gently caress them for hoarding all of this (especially star fox 2 pre snes classic) for so long
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Jul 28, 2020 12:48
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I don't think its bootlicking to say "this is a companies internal documents and materials it deemed not fit for public release, its weird to say its morally wrong to not share these even if Nintendo could have found an audience for it if they packaged it up appropriately"
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Jul 28, 2020 14:32
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Split screen coop Mario 64 on actual 64 hardware /w the new Luigi model added in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjJrbygzen0
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Jul 28, 2020 14:46
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That video is confusing to me. Was there newly found co-op code in the leaks? Or is the "artistic freedom" he's referring to just using the fan-made co-op code from a few years back? Or was there already co-op code found in the original rom which that was based on?Barudak posted:I don't think its bootlicking to say "this is a companies internal documents and materials it deemed not fit for public release, its weird to say its morally wrong to not share these even if Nintendo could have found an audience for it if they packaged it up appropriately" I mean, I desperately want to see all the Eric Stoltz scenes from Back to the Future released. Eric Stoltz wants to see those scenes released. The Blu-rays have a little snippet of them in a special features which shows us they still exist in high quality. Do I think it's totally arbitrary to not release those scenes in full? Yep! But do I think Universal and the producers are committing some heinous act of greedy hoarding against the public by not doing so? Of course not. If those scenes were leaked I'd be happy even if Universal wasn't, and I'd watch them and share them with friends. But I don't think they're obligated to show them to us even if they don't really have any good reason. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 14:55
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feedmyleg posted:That video is confusing to me. Was there newly found co-op code in the leaks? Or is the "artistic freedom" he's referring to just using the fan-made co-op code from a few years back? Or was there already co-op code found in the original rom which that was based on? he made a mario 64 coop, and after optimizing the code, got it running on real hardware, i think it was when it was discovered the retail game was not optimized at all or something? maybe before. anyway, now someone took that mod and put the official luigi model into the co-op mod and ran it on a real n64. i think when nintendo tried it back in the day it ran like poo poo so they scrapped it (theyve talked about it and i think the recent ultra mario brothers title screen was when they were doing it) and its only now running well after years of tweaks and insight. the coop code is all new tho, not some left in stuff.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:00
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https://twitter.com/dylancuthbert/status/1287150298570530817 One of the programmers from Argonaut Games had this to say about the source code leak.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:09
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Yeah, its really weird to say that the public is entitled to their internal documents, and development work. Not only would they have to check that everything is legally ok to share, they'd have to provide a place to download it. Not to mention that a lot of stuff is lower quality, and not meant for public consumption. There is also a question of how old does something have to be before they release it.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:24
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I wouldn’t call Dylan Cuthbert just one of the programmers...
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Jul 28, 2020 15:25
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Mister Chief posted:I wouldn’t call Dylan Cuthbert just one of the programmers... I mean it's just Starfox man.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:34
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ChaosArgate posted:https://twitter.com/dylancuthbert/status/1287150298570530817 lmao @ IP control going public after 4-6 years.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:40
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wrong thread. l;ol.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:44
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:i mean this might be a hot take, but i think corporations sitting on a loving dragon hoard of behind-the-scenes information and data rather than releasing it into the historical record is, actually, bad what makes you think there is any attempt to "hide" this? just dumping all of this stuff at once is interesting for internet nerds to pour over, but it's infinitely more valuable when it's curated and released with context like developer interviews. whatever brain disease that causes fandoms to think they have ownership over something rather than its creator is bizarre.
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Jul 28, 2020 15:53
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NyetscapeNavigator posted:whatever brain disease that causes fandoms to think they have ownership over something rather than its creator is bizarre. No, it isn't. Human culture is shared. You can't stop it. The idea that some entity can control our shared culture is bizarre attempt to undermine that fact. Throughout all of history humans shared stories and art and built on (and, yes, profited from) others' work. Copyright is a compromise where we agree to temporarily give them control of some of our culture in order for the creator to benefit from their work. It's only very recently that we decided megacorporations should be able to own our culture indefinitely. Our current effectively-infinite-length copyright term is less than fifty years old and, in my opinion, hugely detrimental to our culture. The original length of a copyright was up to 28 years. I agree that Nintendo has no obligation to release this information, and that releasing it is probably more immoral than moral. However, don't be fooled into thinking copyright is some natural law. It's not. We made it up, and we can change it if it isn't working for us.
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Jul 28, 2020 16:26
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Is a plumber not entitled to the source of his code? NO! Says the poster on the internet, it belongs to the people!
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Jul 28, 2020 16:37
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ColdPie posted:No, it isn't. Human culture is shared. You can't stop it. The idea that some entity can control our shared culture is bizarre attempt to undermine that fact. Throughout all of history humans shared stories and art and built on (and, yes, profited from) others' work. Copyright is a compromise where we agree to temporarily give them control of some of our culture in order for the creator to benefit from their work. It's only very recently that we decided megacorporations should be able to own our culture indefinitely. Our current effectively-infinite-length copyright term is less than fifty years old and, in my opinion, hugely detrimental to our culture. The original length of a copyright was up to 28 years. Even if there was no copyright law, they'd be under no obligation to release this information, and it still would be illegal to obtain it. Copyrights last too long, and it shouldn't be illegal to bypass DMCA, but it isn't really relevant to the situation at hand.
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Jul 28, 2020 16:43
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IShallRiseAgain posted:Even if there was no copyright law, they'd be under no obligation to release this information, and it still would be illegal to obtain it. Copyrights last too long, and it shouldn't be illegal to bypass DMCA, but it isn't really relevant to the situation at hand. It kinda is. Which laws do you think Nintendo will use to force sites to take down 25-30 year-old assets? Its absurd that a corporation can control them for that long. This will be my only post on the subject in this thread, though. Edit: For the record, I don't mean to imply the breach and release wasn't unlawful or immoral. Edit2: I'm not arguing for forcing companies to release their private materials either. azurite fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jul 28, 2020 |
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Jul 28, 2020 16:50
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ColdPie posted:No, it isn't. Human culture is shared. You can't stop it. The idea that some entity can control our shared culture is bizarre attempt to undermine that fact. Throughout all of history humans shared stories and art and built on (and, yes, profited from) others' work. Copyright is a compromise where we agree to temporarily give them control of some of our culture in order for the creator to benefit from their work. It's only very recently that we decided megacorporations should be able to own our culture indefinitely. Our current effectively-infinite-length copyright term is less than fifty years old and, in my opinion, hugely detrimental to our culture. The original length of a copyright was up to 28 years. lol no the op is right, current fandom is deranged, they have convinced themselves into believing they actually own an authors creation when they become fans of it. nothing to do with "shared human culture." these fandoms think they actually have a say/part/ownership in the thing are into more than the actual people making the stuff. which is how you get these insane loving outrages when a film/tv show/game/comic/book doesnt go the way the fandom wants it to. it is 100% deranged. you see it in every big thing these days, pure toxic fandom.
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Jul 28, 2020 16:58
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The entitlement on display here is insane. Nintendo can do whatever the hell it wants with its property and doesn't owe you a thing.
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Jul 28, 2020 17:03
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holy poo poo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cH_Pgqz3SQ
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Jul 28, 2020 17:03
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