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brugroffil posted:Can you point out for me where in the article or in the full discussion he clearly states that many if not most schools are not in place to safely reopen right now rather than talking about an "experiment" to "learn" just how badly this is gonna spread in schools? Can you point out for me anywhere he's made it clear how disastrous and deadly the push from the federal government he works for will be? That wasn't in the discussion because no one asked that question. This was a town hall where AFT members submitted questions and the moderator chose from that pool. brugroffil posted:The context is "we're doing a huge, uncontrolled 'experiment' with millions of test subjects with a deadly disease" and Fauci seemingly blithely going along with it rather than doing what he can to convince the public and public officials otherwise. He didn't make this clear in this meeting, at least per the write-up. Has he made it clear that we cannot safely open schools under current conditions elsewhere? That wasn't the context. Watch the actual meeting starting at 5:10 and you'll have the context. He literally prefaces the start of the Q&A with it. To paraphrase: we don't know everything, we're learning more, my answers are based on what we know. Fauci isn't advocating a ghoulish experiment like you keep insinuating. He's saying "here's the policy, we have to determine how to best navigate it, things will change as we go along, we will continue to learn". That's the context. You keep extrapolating more meaning from that single quote than what was actually there. What's the point? Just to get worked up over something? How is that constructive?
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Jul 29, 2020 19:04
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IDGAF about "hurting Trump" how great is our response going to be when we're at far more cases per day than we're at even now because we reopened the schools and thousands of more people are needless dead and hospitalized?
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Jul 29, 2020 19:05
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Krispy Wafer posted:The administration is going hard into opening schools. Fauci could call that out and get fired, which would hurt Trump. But nothing ever seems to REALLY hurt Trump. So 2 weeks later the county’s pandemic response is even weaker and Trump’s moved the news cycle to some other stupid thing he’s done. Going kamikaze on Trump doesn’t work. At least not in the long term. it may not hurt Trump, but it could convince more teachers to organize and stop it again, I don't think "look if you don't run the Tuskeegee experiments we'll just get someone else who will be worse" is an ethical reason to do it, medically speaking (or, like, normal human being speaking)
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Jul 29, 2020 19:06
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If Fauci actually gives a poo poo about stopping this he should full bore go against Trump and try to rally teachers into starting a general strike
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Jul 29, 2020 19:13
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We are going to learn soooooo much from your child's corpse. Thank you.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:14
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brugroffil posted:The context is "we're doing a huge, uncontrolled 'experiment' with millions of test subjects with a deadly disease" and Fauci seemingly blithely going along with it rather than doing what he can to convince the public and public officials otherwise. He didn't make this clear in this meeting, at least per the write-up. Has he made it clear that we cannot safely open schools under current conditions elsewhere? That's not the context I was talking about, but there actually are places in the US it where may be safe to open schools.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:16
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Feldegast42 posted:If Fauci actually gives a poo poo about stopping this he should full bore go against Trump and try to rally teachers into starting a general strike Right, that's the thing. This isn't just about protecting teachers. It's about not turning thousands of schools each into their own little super-spreading colonies across the entire country. Things are bad right now. We'll be on the road to "Imperial College Worst Case Predictions" by mid-September, and every single thing we did the past few months will have been for absolutely nothing. That's the context.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:17
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Feldegast42 posted:If Fauci actually gives a poo poo about stopping this he should full bore go against Trump and try to rally teachers into starting a general strike I think a teacher should lead a teacher's strike but I guess I'm old fashioned that way.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:24
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Munkeymon posted:I think a teacher should lead a teacher's strike but I guess I'm old fashioned that way. It's the unions that lead strikes and Randi Weingarten, the leader of the AFT national teachers' union, just stated that local unions are free to strike on grounds of safety for reopening and that the national union would support them. She was also the moderator for the Fauci Q&A discussed earlier. quote:"But if authorities don't protect the safety and health of those we represent and those we serve ... nothing is off the table," she warned. "Not advocacy or protests, negotiations, grievances or lawsuits, or, if necessary and authorized by a local union, as a last resort, safety strikes."
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Jul 29, 2020 19:30
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They're consolidating their arguments in favor of the Hydroxycut drug. https://c19study.com/ eggyolk fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 19:30
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brugroffil posted:I am melting down because my wife's supposed to go back to teaching in a few weeks, and her Illinois district has done essentially nothing to protect them. Full student body 5 days a week, 30-35 kids per classroom, 3 classes per day, no podding. Still no written plan on what to do if a teacher is symptomatic or has a positive test. Wow that’s really bad, they’re not even trying. Like some places are trying to put in some controls (they ultimately won’t help that much) but it sounds like your district is just sticking its head in the sand, drat the consequences. And for the Fauci stuff, I at least initially viewed it with a cynical “lol nothing matters” gaze, which is probably not a good thing to do. We are forcing teachers to be subjects to an experiment we already know the answer to. He’s at least being honest about that part. I don’t know if it’s good to give advice under the assumption that schools will go in-person regardless. Maybe as a “harm reduction” thing it’s ok, but you’re probably right that it should be contextualized more as “this is an extremely bad idea but if you must, at least do x/y/z”. But yeah shits really hosed and I’m sorry your family is being dragged into it.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:30
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There Bias Two posted:This paper is very bad news. Out of 100 members in the cohort, 78% had cardiac involvement and 60% had ongoing cardiac inflammation post-recovery and the majority were not required to hospitalize. This points to the high likelihood that a large number of people are running around with significantly weakened bodies post-COVID. Coronavirus: Please scream inside what’s left of your heart
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Jul 29, 2020 19:31
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Munkeymon posted:I think a teacher should lead a teacher's strike but I guess I'm old fashioned that way. ok but how do they know whether they need to strike or whether it's safe to go back to work, teachers aren't doctors or epidemiologists so whose job is it to provide this information hmmm
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Jul 29, 2020 19:48
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brugroffil posted:IDGAF about "hurting Trump" You're preaching to the choir. This isn't a Green Hornet situation where all the good guys need is more WILL to get things done.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:49
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St. Dogbert posted:My fiancée began treatments yesterday that would allow us to start trying for a child in 3-6 months. I’ve been looking forward to being a father for years, but the bombardment of bad news like this in the past few days/weeks/months is really making me question whether I want my child to live in a world where all the joy and fun of living has been permanently taken away by COVID, and where every interaction with another human being is potentially life-threatening - and it seems as though that’s the “new normal” from here on. There will be a vaccine. This is not a permanent state of affairs
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Jul 29, 2020 19:50
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St. Dogbert posted:My fiancée began treatments yesterday that would allow us to start trying for a child in 3-6 months. I’ve been looking forward to being a father for years, but the bombardment of bad news like this in the past few days/weeks/months is really making me question whether I want my child to live in a world where all the joy and fun of living has been permanently taken away by COVID, and where every interaction with another human being is potentially life-threatening - and it seems as though that’s the “new normal” from here on. Your kid will be growing up in a world that has to face the ravages of global warming, an America that is nearly half fallen to the culture wars etc etc. Not having a kid ever because COVID is pretty dumb imo considering that COVID is literally the most solveable of the major problems in the world today.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:56
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VitalSigns posted:ok but how do they know whether they need to strike or whether it's safe to go back to work, teachers aren't doctors or epidemiologists so whose job is it to provide this information hmmm They could compare the measures their district or campus is actually taking with those recommended by the NIH.
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Jul 29, 2020 19:56
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Munkeymon posted:They could compare the measures their district or campus is actually taking with those recommended by the NIH. so if it's known to be safe to open under NIH guidelines, why did Fauci say this is an experiment to see if they die
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Jul 29, 2020 20:00
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Whether or not the teachers strike, who decides to strike, who leads the strike, etc is affected by what union they belong to and what jurisdiction they are in (and sometimes inter-union agreements). If you're a public school teacher in NJ or Florida (among others) good loving luck - you can't strike. Legally, at least.VitalSigns posted:so if it's known to be safe to open under NIH guidelines, why did Fauci say this is an experiment to see if they die He didn't. Stop repeating this.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:03
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Listening to the video so far and it seems that the context is that when he says "experiment" what he means is that, in an absence of knowing exactly what is safe, those in places where the infection is under relative control will be vital in determining best practices. I mean he opens by saying this subject is close to home for him as his daughter is a school teacher in New Orleans and his wife is a practising nurse.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:12
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VitalSigns posted:it may not hurt Trump, but it could convince more teachers to organize and stop it Um, from the previous page, you conflated the "Tuskegee Airmen", who were excellent pilots, with the "Tuskegee experiment", which is where they gave a bunch of poor Black people syphilis on purpose and then didn't treat them for it. Please don't do that. I don't think you meant any harm, but I did want to point it out. Wylie fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 20:13
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Wylie posted:Um, from the previous page, you conflated the "Tuskegee Airmen", who were excellent pilots, with the "Tuskegee experiment", which is where they gave a bunch of poor Black people syphilis ok purpose and then didn't treat them for it. whoops thanks for the correction FreelanceSocialist posted:He didn't. Stop repeating this. That's not what you said at first FreelanceSocialist posted:Did I miss something? Is Fauci forcing the reopening of schools or is that just some dark humor on his part and people are missing the tone and context? you said it was dark humor about how people are going to needlessly die
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Jul 29, 2020 20:16
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Wylie posted:Um, from the previous page, you conflated the "Tuskegee Airmen", who were excellent pilots, with the "Tuskegee experiment", which is where they gave a bunch of poor Black people syphilis on purpose and then didn't treat them for it. Glad I'm not the only one that caught that! (the mistake, not syphilis)
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Jul 29, 2020 20:17
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VitalSigns posted:whoops thanks for the correction People were responding to a Tweet as if they understood the context. I thought I had missed something. Turns out I didn't miss anything because no one actually watched the video the tweet came from. I said that Fauci is correct in labeling the reopening an "experiment" as in "an opportunity for observation" not as in "a thing we are deliberately doing to see whether kids die" which is what you keep interpreting it as. The "dark humor" part was calling it an "experiment".
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Jul 29, 2020 20:22
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FreelanceSocialist posted:People were responding to a Tweet as if they understood the context. I thought I had missed something. Turns out I didn't miss anything because no one actually watched the video the tweet came from. I said that Fauci is correct in labeling the reopening an "experiment" as in "an opportunity for observation" not as in "a thing we are deliberately doing to see whether kids die" which is what you keep interpreting it as. The "dark humor" part was calling it an "experiment". it's not something they're doing to see whether kids die, it's an opportunity they're taking to observe whether kids die, thank you for distinguishing between these two totally different and definitely not exactly the same things
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Jul 29, 2020 20:27
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Briefly, on Fauci and NIH: The National Institutes of Health are meant to be independent, world-leading entities that principally direct research funding and advise the federal government, and their leadership are always people from the research community. From the beginning, individual Institutes often functioned as fiefdoms, and because they are created by congress, they tend to be arranged to chase after public issues, rather than organized to push research forward (for instance, the National Cancer Institute is some ungodly large proportion of all their funding compared to everything else). The Institutes have an internal political dynamic that's very similar to academic research settings; there's even an intramural researcher pipeline with tenure. This includes the "petty sniping" part of academic culture, and as research funding has disappeared over the past few decades, the Institutes have not been immune to internal research quality problems, either. Despite all this it's still the organization with the best researchers and much of the best resources in the world. At least back in the 90s, Anthony Fauci had a reputation for being extremely cautious about his statements, and for having particularly strong control over NIAID (which, after his involvement in the response to HIV, became heavily focused in that area for a time, and which has continued to be one of the main sources of innovation in things like vaccine development). It's worth emphasizing that NIAID is not a clinical public health entity or directly controlling drug approvals; the irregular approvals processes that I've read about have come from HHS and are entirely separate. Usually Institute directors run an institute for a few years while maintaining a separate position at a university, which they then return to; it's highly irregular for someone to hold a director spot for very long, because it means they basically give up on their research career. Fauci is one of only a handful of directors that seem to have made Institute direction their entire career (though I think it's become more popular as science funding has dwindled and it's seen as safe). Fauci can be (indirectly) fired by Trump, and his position is directly selected by him (although in practice NIH selects someone internally and the president rubberstamps it, it's always possible Trump ignores this). At the same time, Fauci should not be directly involved with the press. NIH has a powerful, influential press office (with its own problems) that ought to be mediating or at least controlling the scope of his public statements: NIH directors usually give press releases and extremely controlled interviews on relatively unimportant subjects, and in moments of crisis might present to a congressional committee. Most of the time their name just appears on reports prepared by their staff. At this point Fauci has said a whole list of things that would have resulted in him being asked to resign under any other administration. I have no clue why he's doing it, or saying the things he says, because he's shown a remarkable lack of message discipline and repeatedly made statements that were completely irresponsible, because they are so easy to misrepresent (and sometimes were just wrong). These appearances have no clear relationship to trying to assuage or placate or manage or control Trump, or even keep his job. I have no clue what he's trying to accomplish; it's like he's just pursuing coverage. This, is a problem with some other NIH directors, who sometimes see it as a way to draw public attention to their area and increase their budget, but it's not something he's historically done, and this is a helluva time to do it. Fauci's role in the response to HIV was controversial, but idk the details and context there, aside from the fact that he wasn't directly involved with obscuring the epidemic. My understanding is he was much less public at that time. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 20:34
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hosed that he's cloaking it in that language rather than calling it what it is: literal death sentence for many, horrible health and economic damage for many more.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:35
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https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1288540590527873024?s=19
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Jul 29, 2020 20:42
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VitalSigns posted:so if it's known to be safe to open under NIH guidelines, why did Fauci say this is an experiment to see if they die He didn't. Spoiler'd the lie. Doesn't deserved repeated.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:43
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brugroffil posted:hosed that he's cloaking it in that language rather than calling it what it is: literal death sentence for many, horrible health and economic damage for many more. But it will hurt people they hate more than the people they like. There's nothing they won't willingly endure for hatred's sake.
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Jul 29, 2020 20:50
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Munkeymon posted:That's not the context I was talking about, but there actually are places in the US it where may be safe to open schools. There are zero places in the US where it is safe to reopen schools. No place. Not one. Unless there's someplace that has zero transmission and is also completely quarantined from the rest of the US? E: And goddamn people, it doesn't loving matter if "there's a real experiment" or "they were going to reopen anyway". It's certainly not a legitimate ethical "experiment" if people are forced into it under pain of loss of employment, and it's not loving appropriate to casually refer to all the great knowledge we'll gain by people's live being put at risk without their consent. At best it's extremely callus no matter how it was intended. Stickman fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 20:52
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Stickman posted:There are zero places in the US where it is safe to reopen schools. No place. Not one. How's Hawaii doing? That's the only place I can conceive that would even have the chance of safety right now, and only because they can, if they choose, close airports. Everywhere else, even if your area has zero cases, all it takes is one family to go visit grandma for a long weekend and wham, brought back a case for your school. E: Rich boarding schools, maybe? 
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Jul 29, 2020 20:58
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Sundae posted:How's Hawaii doing? That's the only place I can conceive that would even have the chance of safety right now, and only because they can, if they choose, close airports. We're not doing so hot. We reopened with very low local transmissions, but before our contact tracing had seriously spun up. Now we're continuing to find local transmissions, and those have gotten worse over the the last two weeks. Folks are wearing masks in public (and at work, I think), but family & group gatherings are driving new cases and people aren't distancing with family/friends/co-worker pau hana. We had a few bar-related transmissions so now their closing bars, but we really need to lock down group gatherings if we want to maintain control. So yeah, schools shouldn't be reopening. I believe their mostly planning 50% capacity rotating schedules, but we barely have local transmissions controlled already... E: Ige has apparently been working on a no-quarantine tourism deal with Japan so I hope that lights a fire under his rear end to take stronger measures. EE: I should add that I feel extremely lucky to be living here right now, I'm just concerned that our containment is extremely shaky and the state budget is bad enough in the best of times that I'm worried we're on a path to make some of the same mistakes other states have made. Sundae posted:E: Rich boarding schools, maybe? If you could bubble the whole school, but I wouldn't trust rich kids 
Stickman fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 21:04
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Fauci didn't do poo poo about the HIV epidemic for like 5 years until he was sufficiently publicly shamed by Larry Kramer and his cadre of loud gays, and now people think that Fauci's gonna do anything more controversial than tone-policing Trump? Pretty wild though, how much Trump really did end up being the new Reagan.
Failed Imagineer fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 29, 2020 |
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Jul 29, 2020 21:10
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Why specifically are they so hellbent on reopening the schools? Like why the push for schools to reopen at all.
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Jul 29, 2020 21:15
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Hollismason posted:Why specifically are they so hellbent on reopening the schools? Like why the push for schools to reopen at all. To give the impression of normalcy and to try and brute force the economy back to functioning. I suspect you can see the flaws in this plan.
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Jul 29, 2020 21:16
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Hollismason posted:Why specifically are they so hellbent on reopening the schools? Like why the push for schools to reopen at all. A lot of it is that schools are our public childcare and folks who got sent back to work without giving without any alternative are having a very difficult time juggling it all. Legitimate concerns about face-to-face socialization is another big one. It's understandable, it's just that if kid's education and socialization are so important to us,we need to do what we have to make sure they can safely have those things. And we continue to fail to do so.
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Jul 29, 2020 21:20
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Exactly - it's a way to get people back to work. I think there's also an ulterior motive to force public schools into a no-win situation and let DeVos make private schools out to be a virus-free panacea.Failed Imagineer posted:Fauci didn't do poo poo about the HIV epidemic for like 5 years until he was sufficiently publicly shamed by Larry Kramer and his cadre of loud gays, and now people think that Fauci's gonna do anything more controversial than tone-policing Trump? Pretty wild though, how much Trump really did end up being the new Reagan. The same Larry Kramer who later called Fauci “the only true and great hero” among government officials in the AIDS crisis?
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Jul 29, 2020 21:23
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Discendo Vox posted:Briefly, on Fauci and NIH: This was very informative, thank you!
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Jul 29, 2020 21:23
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https://twitter.com/AP/status/1288566818119069696
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Jul 29, 2020 21:24
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