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RazzleDazzleHour posted:So if she would have been a little nicer about doing the exact same thing it would have been fine then huh Basically. If she had said something about this being a harsh but necessary duty and that your students should think long and hard about what it means to truly be in command then it would be fine. Instead it is all about stamping out resistance and how all that really matters is that your students should be terrified about defying her.
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Jul 30, 2020 05:14
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Even then, was it really a crime for Christophe to try and kill Rhea? I don't mean legally on paper, but like morally. Edelgard is also guilty of trying to kill Rhea and we all defend her for it.
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Jul 30, 2020 07:34
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Trying to kill someone because albino Megamind told you to do it is morally wrong.
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Jul 30, 2020 07:59
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galagazombie posted:I'd have been fine if the game only contained AM and CF. Together they tell a complete story and complement each other. No offense to the Deer (because as individual characters they're great which is what makes their route worthwhile) but as a faction the Alliance is basically irrelevant to the story even on it's own route. And before you point out that thats because the devs ran out of time and just copied SS, the Church route has the same problems., in that you feel like some group on the sidelines watching the actual main characters (the Empire and Kingdom) fight each other. On top of that in a hypothetical Red vs Blue only game, you actually never learn that the Slitherers are anything more than a conspiracy of Imperial mages. Making the game 100% better by not introducing their weird nonsensical backstory and kinda making Edelgard look like she's prioritizing the wrong order in which she fights her enemies. The problem with the story overall is that the just took the standard Fire Emblem story they use in every game, where there is a hero whose home is invaded by a leader who is making "pragmatic" decisions that go way too far and being manipulated by some secret group in the background, and split it up into three different stories, rather than actually writing unique paths. Only Azure Moon really feels like a complete story, and that's because it's the most simplistic one: your side gets invaded, you fight off the bad guys and then counter-attack them, the end.
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Jul 30, 2020 07:59
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galagazombie posted:Even then, was it really a crime for Christophe to try and kill Rhea? I don't mean legally on paper, but like morally. Edelgard is also guilty of trying to kill Rhea and we all defend her for it. First off, not all of us. Secondly, Edelgard only tries to kill Rhea because Rhea will not give up power; Edelgard wants Rhea to give up peacefully. We don't really know why Christophe tried to kill Rhea, but it's unlikely the slitherins told him her deal so it probably wasn't a good one.
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Jul 30, 2020 08:39
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Of all the things the Church does in this game it's insane to me that people cling to literally the least wrong thing that the Church does in the whole game as their damning evidence. We have no evidence Lonato was planning anything of the sort, and Lonato was in a 'foreign' kingdom, not in the church land. This specific incident shows the church is able to decide someone is against the church and kill them all just because they say so, and it shows that it has the power to do so in the Kingdom lands. That's... a big deal. Morality wise, it shows that it is very bloodthirsty about doing so and maintaining its power.
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Jul 30, 2020 13:12
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I thought executing anyone even tentatively related to Lonato and his rebellion in front of you without a trial, and using that to make a point that the same will happen to you if you ever consider going against the church was a bad look, but I guess it was physically impossible for Rhea to do anything else, yeah.
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Jul 30, 2020 13:58
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I'm looking at the chapter script and as far as I can see there's nothing about Lonato wanting to burn his way across Fodlan and "and slaughter everyone [at the monastery], including the students". In fact, what he's actually doing is barely mentioned at all, and nothing is said about what he plans on doing. Almost all the dialogue is about a) How hopeless his rebellion is and how it'll probably already be over when you get there ("Lonato's army is nothing compared to the knights. It's quite possible the rebellion has already been suppressed"..."Why would a minor lord raise an army against a foe he cannot possibly hope to defeat?"..."There's some minor noble rebelling in Faerghus, right? He has no chance of winning. I wonder what he hopes to achieve..." etc) -with the extra bits of b) Questioning why he is going against the Church when he used to be a fervent believer and is still known as a kind and gentle lord ("He used to stay at the monastery rather frequently. He was such as pious man. A true believer"..."They say he is a very kind and gentle lord. Why would such a kind man suddenly raise an army?") c) Rhea being all "take the kids to watch the executions that'll be happening after everything's over so they can learn a lesson about going against my church" ("This mission should prove useful in demonstrating to the students how foolish it would be to ever turn their blades on the church") All we really get about what specifically he's doing is from Seteth's briefing at the start: "We have received reports that Lord Lonato has rallied troops against the Holy Church of Seiros." Hardly enough to base claims that he wants to "pillage anything they need along the way, get to the Monastary and slaughter everyone there, including the students". Edit: Also, there's the whole bit of "Pope wants kids to watch prisoners get extrajudicially executed so they know that going against her wishes leads an instant death penalty" which is, to put not too fine a point on it, majorly hosed up. As is how utterly casual Rhea is with just saying "the executions of civilians who disagree with me is good and proper and I hope this was a valuable lesson to your students", ("I heard some of the students were...hesitant about fighting militia. However, we must punish any sinner who may inflict harm upon believers, even if those sinners are civilians. I pray the students learned a valuable lesson about the fate that awaits all who are foolish enough to point their blades towards the heavens.") Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 14:14 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 14:05
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Does Ashe shed some light on the subject? IIRC his supports with Catherine have a bit of introspection on his motivations, but I didn’t pay much attention in my first run.
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Jul 30, 2020 14:38
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I grew up playing games like Shining Force and the last FE game I played was Sacred Stones, I went all in and bought this with all DLC, is there any 'before I play' kind of stuff I should know about going in blind (aside from what's listed on beforeiplay)?
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Jul 30, 2020 14:50
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The game is easy enough that you can just field whoever you want in any class you want, so don't worry about optimizing your units. I'd suggest doing Cindered Shadows (plot DLC) after your first playthrough, because while it doesn't outright spoil anything, it gives away a few things and the plot assumes you're at least familiar with the first part of the main game. The DLC itself is fun to play and the stuff you get is great. Early on you'll unlock statues that let you buy various boosts. The +10% XP boost is way too much and I'd recommend leaving it until you plan to play Maddening difficulty. The other statue stuff is awesome though.
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Jul 30, 2020 15:38
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Deltasquid posted:Does Ashe shed some light on the subject? IIRC his supports with Catherine have a bit of introspection on his motivations, but I didn’t pay much attention in my first run. From my very quick skim through the supports, Ashe and Catherine mostly talk about Christophe. Funnily enough, the person who talks most about Lonato seems to be (of all people) Gilbert. Gilbert: You were adopted by Lord Lonato, correct? I once told you that I wished to protect one thing other than my king...and that is my family. My wife and my daughter, both of whom I left behind in the Kingdom. Lord Lonato took up his sword for his son. Even if that meant turning his back on the goddess... As a father, I cannot condemn Lord Lonato for raising an army. Ashe: ... Gilbert: Yet, perhaps he too lost sight of what should be protected. Just as I did. Ashe: I don't understand what you mean. What should Lonato have protected? Gilbert: You, Ashe. Because you are also his son. Ashe: You're right... Ashe: I think I know what I need to protect now. It's been staring me in the face all this time. I don't know why I couldn't see it. I'm Lonato's son. His pride and his wishes are my inheritance. Those are what I should protect.
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Jul 30, 2020 15:49
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Shinji117 posted:I'm looking at the chapter script and as far as I can see there's nothing about Lonato wanting to burn his way across Fodlan and "and slaughter everyone [at the monastery], including the students". What really hammers the nail home is after the mission when you see Seteth/Rhea speaking with the mages you captured from the battle. IIRC, it goes something like: "You heathens from the Western Church will be put to death for your heresy." "What? We're not from the Western Church. We..." "You die now! Off with them!" It doesn't even have the veneer of judiciousness or religious justification. It all zealotry all the way down.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:42
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Have some people figured out how to hack this game? I bought a random sword I hadn't seen before from one of those online visitors you get in the monastery if you have that turned on. It's called a Viskam. It has infinite durability, and it is a magic sword like the Levin that can attack opponents up to nine (9!) tiles away. Also, the description for it is just the description for a leather shield. I looked it up online and it also looks like it's the name for the turrets that appear as enemies in one of the last chapters (at least in Golden Deer, I don't know about the other stories). This thing is so broken with Lysithea, who I had been training in swordsmanship anyway, I think I'm going to have to not use it or the game will get too easy.
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Jul 30, 2020 18:57
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Shinji117 posted:I'm looking at the chapter script and as far as I can see there's nothing about Lonato wanting to burn his way across Fodlan and "and slaughter everyone [at the monastery], including the students". Dimitri is the one who brings up "more civilian lives would have been lost" if they didn't stop Lonato, and Claude mentions him destroying villages in his war path as well. But both are after the battle and uh... almost utterly disassociated with the earlier information that the church has his lands under siege and the eventual fight is so close to the town Ashe can run right off and see his siblings with no effort.
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Jul 30, 2020 19:00
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Inu posted:Have some people figured out how to hack this game? Yeah. I ended up getting *two* of them in my last playthrough, and it is was a riot. I just stuck one on Pegasus Knight Flayne and one on Mercedes, and they just carved paths of destruction and misery throughout the rest of the game.
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Jul 30, 2020 19:16
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Inu posted:Have some people figured out how to hack this game? so, yes. switch titles in general you can expect to get hacked and datamined as soon as they're out.
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Jul 30, 2020 20:14
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Shinji117 posted:I'm looking at the chapter script and as far as I can see there's nothing about Lonato wanting to burn his way across Fodlan and "and slaughter everyone [at the monastery], including the students". I mean...do you know what a rebellion is? You don't need to hear him say the words "we're going to go to the church and kill people" to know that that is the goal of a large group of armed forced who have already declared their intent to take up arms against the church. Lonato isn't some guy who wrote "the church sux" Let's look at some thing lonato DOES say though! "Stand down, Ashe. I must destroy these evil-doers by any means necessary!" "The fog has cleared. There's nothing left to hide you or the filthy Central Church from the judgement of the goddess!" This certainly sounds an awful lot like he's gonna do a violence against the church! But he never says anything about killing the students, you say? Do you think that when their forces show up to the church, the students are all just going to let it get overrun and let Lonato kill all the people who run their school? Probably not! So, when faced with both the future heir to the Kingdom and his own adopted son, is he going to resort to violence? You bet! "Your Highness... I cannot stop here. For my child, and for the people of Fodlan. If you will not stand aside, then I have no choice but to cut you down." "Enough. If that is how you feel, prepare yourself! I'm putting an end to this!" We know from the actual video game that Lonato and his forces are super willing to kill the students sent to stop him. So I don't know in what universe you could possibly argue that if Lonato is left alone it doesn't result in something just as bad if not worse if he's left to "destroy evil-doers."
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Jul 30, 2020 21:19
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Shinji117 posted:I'm looking at the chapter script and as far as I can see there's nothing about Lonato wanting to burn his way across Fodlan and "and slaughter everyone [at the monastery], including the students". people don't actually play this game.
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Jul 30, 2020 21:19
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Tired Moritz posted:people don't actually play this game. Hey do you wanna address any of my actual points or no
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Jul 30, 2020 21:23
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Hey do you wanna address any of my actual points or no I want to point out that you're literally a Church kill team that's attacking Lonato on his land and have already announced you will be slaughtering them to a man. I'm not sure how else Lonato is supposed to respond there? Kneel over and die? Like Rhea makes it very clear that your orders are not to end the rebellion but to kill all the heretics.
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Jul 30, 2020 21:26
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Zore posted:I want to point out that you're literally a Church kill team that's attacking Lonato on his land and have already announced you will be slaughtering them to a man. See okay my issue here is that you are literally a kill team in every single mission you go on so why is this mission somehow significantly more hosed up or worthy of contempt than any other map? In Edel's route the Lonato map is basically every single map you do, so singling out this one chapter for being hosed up is just weird. To be so torn about putting down a rebellion when you spend most of the early chapters putting thieves to death seems like a totally insignificant distinction, and basically every time someone mentions this conversation is all comes back to "well Rhea shouldnt have been so mean" Ashe and Dimitri also both explicitly give Lonato a chance to surrender before he says "nah I'd rather kill both of you than give up"
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Jul 30, 2020 21:35
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Even Rhea in the church route was like "okay I hosed up A LOT OF THINGS" why is this up to debate like come on, this is a videogame, do you expect by putting Dimitri against him, the enemy boss is actually gonna be like "MMM MAYBE I SHOULD STOP FIGHTING" I don't even Lonato even moves from his tile, so you have to actively engage him so that's justifiable self-defense even if it's an attack from your crazed princeling.
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Jul 30, 2020 21:35
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:See okay my issue here is that you are literally a kill team in every single mission you go on so why is this mission somehow significantly more hosed up or worthy of contempt than any other map? In Edel's route the Lonato map is basically every single map you do, so singling out this one chapter for being hosed up is just weird. To be so torn about putting down a rebellion when you spend most of the early chapters putting thieves to death seems like a totally insignificant distinction, and basically every time someone mentions this conversation is all comes back to "well Rhea shouldnt have been so mean" Yeah, this is you not engaging with the text like at all. The characters in the game are all telling you that this is different for a variety of reasons, it comes up numerous times across various supports and literally in the main dialogue from Rhea on the route that focuses most on her. And to be clear, yes she shouldn't have been so mean. The fact that we butchered everyone there is incredibly hosed up and literally every character comments on how hosed up it is up to and including Seteth. Also there's more than a bit of gameplay/story segregation. There are a lot of people who 'die' in the tactical map without being killed in the story (students in Part 1, lots of recurring minibosses and bosses, several generic units like the dude Dimitri almost tortures to death etc). Not every single map has you killing everyone you fight. Zore fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 21:39
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Tired Moritz posted:Even Rhea in the church route was like "okay I hosed up A LOT OF THINGS" why is this up to debate How the gently caress are you going to use the "its a video game" justification when attacking Lonato and not use that same logic when framing the mission itself in the sense that this is a video game about fighting enemies so of course if there's a rebellion you're going to fight it like what
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Jul 30, 2020 21:39
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yeah my argument is that it's a dick move from the church and you're part of the church still during that moment in the game question: is it a hosed up thing that Rhea sends Byleth and some kids as a death squad to kill some heretics answer: everyone in the game goes "wtf is this the right thing to do" so yes, it's kinda hosed up.
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Jul 30, 2020 21:46
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Tired Moritz posted:question: is it a hosed up thing that Rhea sends Byleth and some kids as a death squad to kill some theives
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Jul 30, 2020 21:57
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Zore posted:Yeah, this is you not engaging with the text like at all. The characters in the game are all telling you that this is different for a variety of reasons, it comes up numerous times across various supports and literally in the main dialogue from Rhea on the route that focuses most on her. This is certainly not the only time in the game that this happens, but guess what, the text does a bad job. From the way people talk about this chapter, you would think it was a crucial turning point in the story instead of there being two post-chapter lines from two students that say "man that kinda sucked" and then is never mentioned again if you don't choose the Church route. My first playthrough I kept expecting this to be some sort of reference point for future friction, but it's not. Nobody ever follows through with some kind of "hey isn't it hosed up how we're the Churches killsquad?". Not even Edelgard mentions this when it comes time to turn against the Church. The game says "this is a big deal" one time, and then never follows through, and never does a good job of distinguishing why this particular incident is so bad compared to all the other killsquading the team does. This doesn't actually change any in-game character's opinions of Rhea OR the Church. Nobody has doubts following this chapter.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:09
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idk I think there's a difference between robbers and people fighting for a cause but I mean, it's pretty clear that the chapter is a hint that there's a bad ominous side to the church, which ya know is why this game has a gray vs gray morality.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:11
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Tired Moritz posted:idk I think there's a difference between robbers and people fighting for a cause Tired Moritz posted:Idk how people can beat the Lonato chapter and come off thinking the church is ever right. This would seem to indicate that you think the church has gone beyond morally gray into an unfollowable territory and I'd be really interested to hear anything about how this chapter is worse than anything you do in the Edelgard route or a lot of what you do in the second half of Azure Moon
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Jul 30, 2020 22:17
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Nobody has doubts following this chapter. What about you, the player though? Characters don't have to turn to the camera and go "MMM WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS SITUATION TEACHER DO YOU THINK THE CHURCH... MIGHT BE BAD?"
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Jul 30, 2020 22:18
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Tired Moritz posted:What about you, the player though? Characters don't have to turn to the camera and go "MMM WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS SITUATION TEACHER DO YOU THINK THE CHURCH... MIGHT BE BAD?" Did you beat that chapter and go "wow, killing all those armed combatants just like we do in every chapter was really hosed up............" my opinion after this chapter was "this was a really hamfisted way of trying to convince me Rhea is ruthless"
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Jul 30, 2020 22:20
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:This would seem to indicate that you think the church has gone beyond morally gray into an unfollowable territory and I'd be really interested to hear anything about how this chapter is worse than anything you do in the Edelgard route or a lot of what you do in the second half of Azure Moon because it's kinda hosed up to be committing trialless heretic punishment time when you're the big superpower church in peacetime.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:23
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what the gently caress is y'alls problem
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Jul 30, 2020 22:24
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Amppelix posted:what the gently caress is y'alls problem I am incapable of ignoring posts
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Jul 30, 2020 22:26
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Did you beat that chapter and go "wow, killing all those armed combatants just like we do in every chapter was really hosed up............" yeah? fighting is bad, but fighting under the command of a merciless megachurch is especially bad. like how the game hammers how bad it feels to kill your students post-time skip like whether or not, you think it's ham-fisted or not, that's not really that matters when it's clear the game is trying to push the notion that Rhea has a dark side.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:26
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Tired Moritz posted:yeah? fighting is bad, but fighting under the command of a merciless megachurch is especially bad. like how the game hammers how bad it feels to kill your students post-time skip Yeah, my favorite way the game makes you feel bad for killing your students is how it tells you about how bad it is instead of doing anything to make you build up a natural aversion to wanting to kill them, like through building up a relationship with them for a long period of time. If it didn't tell me it was bad, I wouldn't have been able to figure it out!
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Jul 30, 2020 22:39
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I'm supposed to feel bad for killing students I didn't even teach?
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Jul 30, 2020 22:41
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Tired Moritz posted:idk I think there's a difference between robbers and people fighting for a cause Of course it's supposed to be gray vs. gray, the problem is a huge chunk of the pro-Empire posters try to completely downplay what Edelgard does while amping up the wrongs of Rhea - something that's nowhere near as prevalent in the reverse. Like, just from this page we've got stupid garbage like this: AlternateNu posted:What really hammers the nail home is after the mission when you see Seteth/Rhea speaking with the mages you captured from the battle. IIRC, it goes something like: Setting aside that they don't even have the time OR people right (this is the scene from the end of the NEXT month after the raid on the tomb, and it's individuals in priest outfits getting charged), they've magically posted only a few select lines of the scene to try and support their completely poo poo point. Yes, let's just ignore that the first two lines are from the beginning of the scene and the last is from the end, and there's a lot in-between. Like: "Spare us the second-rate theater, you've already been identified" - because criminals certainly never lie about their involvement amirite? Followed up on by multiple individuals in that scene who are not, in fact, Rhea and are implied to have actually conducted an investigation (one of which isn't even a follower of the church and has no religious stake). Or, I dunno: "No! This isn't what we were told would happen. We've been deceived!" - because that's totally something a non-guilty or unknowing party would say. Regardless of whether you agree with the punishment or how Rhea reacts, and there are certainly arguments you could make there, this is blatantly them hunting out moles after the security issues of the past few months - not some random innocents - and that this fact even has to be pointed out is laughable.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:41
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I love it when video games do a "tell don't show" and just tell me something that I did is bad without doing literally anything in-game to distinguish this particular map as different from any other map in the Fire Emblem series. How about you introduce Lonato before this map and talk to him a few times over the course of the game before now instead of expecting me to feel bad about this guy I've never met starting an uprising for reasons I won't learn until 40 hours later? How about making the enemies villagers armed with shoddy weapons, or who hesitate to fight you, instead of making them faceless Dark Mages and Myrmidons who aggro you on-sight just like every other map? How about giving them some dialogue? Anything?
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Jul 30, 2020 22:51
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